Buk-M2s, Pantsir-S1s and Pechora 2M unable to down IAF jets

[ravi gupta]

F16 do not need separate jamming pod... F16 on-board avionics are designed for the task .. Ask your Mig pilots and they will tell you how good it is ...

F16 is common as it is most proven platform ... If copying platform could have been that earlier

Sir I think you need to study the studies behind avionics ... Why Pakistan is investing on JF-17 whereas with slightly more bucks we could have gone for J10 ... Why are we still buying F-16 even used one and upgrading them ???

Sir these days individual asset or aircraft is nothing ... real game is net centric warfare .... Israel is pushing for ELTA/2032 as it will facilitate them in net-centric warfare ... Ability of ELTA to communicate with rest of systems of Israel is much higher as compared to APG series ...

Thats the reason Pakistan is focusing on its own platform i.e. JF17 ... So Pakistan is more inclined towards having aircraft and avionics to which it has some degree of control does that means that off the shelf solution are inferrior???

Unlike fan boy stuff real warfare is entirely different ...


I am not talking about who got net.centric capabilities first ... at this point of time both of us have it ... i am just saying that it is very difficult to jam net.centric platform ...

Your prove that mki and mirrage 2000 are better than blk 52

My proof is best platform of india is mki then why buying rafael ?

If your answer is china then rafale is no answer to j20

Check kargil archives you will see that MIG-29 has lock F-16 couple of time.
Upgraded Miraj2000 and MKI are far superior then F-16,Why we are buying Rafeal,is becoz ,Rafael is MMRCA
and Sukhoi heavy figher ,Rafeal we have brought specificaly for our NUKE delievery,We are also going to buy 200 F-16 or Groipen single engine fighter.

 

[The Accountant]

Check kargil archives you will see that MIG-29 has lock F-16 couple of time.
Upgraded Miraj2000 and MKI are far superior then F-16,Why we are buying Rafeal,is becoz ,Rafael is MMRCA
and Sukhoi heavy figher ,Rafeal we have brought specificaly for our NUKE delievery,We are also going to buy 200 F-16 or Groipen single engine fighter.

Ok then why there was a not a single kill ? Check archives completely ... Migh 29 tried to lock but f16 not only broke the lock but also jammed the radars ... Furthermore that were previous blocks of 1980s ... Pakistan current f16s are of blk 52 or mlu upgraded to blk 52 standard which were introduced after mki which is of 90s and far advance ... Even upgraded mirrage are not a match to f16 as it is more proficient in ground attack but not competent for f16 in air to air engagement ...

If rafael are for nuclear deliveryy then why it cant be made on mki ? India is assembling mki and has full contol over it then why not given the role of nuclear strike ... In pakistan nuclear strike role is being transferred from mirrages to jf !7 ...

Fact is mki is not as good as you indians think ... Upgraded mirrage is good in some aspects ...

 

[DJ_Viper]

U.S just bought Iron Fist and is considering Trophy for it's armored corps, Israel sold drones to the U.S back in the 80's.

Im not saying that Israel can challenge U.S military industrial complex, but Israel do have some cards in the deck.

Israel contributed to mature the F15 and F16 programs in the early stages, by providing hundred of fixes to the U.S upon their experience with the fighter jets.
for summary, the U.S is a superpower and Israel isn't, but it's still a country with very advance tech, developed by the years with cooperation of western and U.S partners and with other partners around the world, Israel hi tech power should be acknowledge

Shalom brother, you are saying the same thing I am saying. I know for a fact that Israel, after the US, is probably the most advanced military tech nation. I also know the advancement of F-15, F-16, and the anti-munitions systems. So there is no disagreement there.

The only thing I highlighted is what you've highlighted too, which is that Israel is a top notch military tech producer. But you can't simply compare it to the US as an alternate power in creating military tech. The gentlemen from India was pointing to that and on purpose of muddying up the argument. But you and I are saying the same thing. Thanks

 

[ravi gupta]

Ok then why there was a not a single kill ? Check archives completely ... Migh 29 tried to lock but f16 not only broke the lock but also jammed the radars ... Furthermore that were previous blocks of 1980s ... Pakistan current f16s are of blk 52 or mlu upgraded to blk 52 standard which were introduced after mki which is of 90s and far advance ... Even upgraded mirrage are not a match to f16 as it is more proficient in ground attack but not competent for f16 in air to air engagement ...

If rafael are for nuclear deliveryy then why it cant be made on mki ? India is assembling mki and has full contol over it then why not given the role of nuclear strike ... In pakistan nuclear strike role is being transferred from mirrages to jf !7 ...

Fact is mki is not as good as you indians think ... Upgraded mirrage is good in some aspects ...

MIG-29 lock F-16 and then they ran away,there is no information of jamming and breaking of lock,you can write whatever you want damn its only defence forum,however facts have been recorded.
Please check indian super sukhoi upgrade there is a sticky thread in indian section to open your eyes.Sukhoi MKI is a heavy platform while F16 is medium to light comparison is not fair.Sukhoi can carry ALCM Brahmos.
Nuke delivery was with Jaguar,now it has shifted to Rafeal,why you want to poke everything in MKI,All IAF platform is role based,unfortunately we dont have JF-17,which can take the role of delivery of nuke,anti ship,interceptor,CAS,Sead Dead,not only multirole but allrounder platform.
Thats all only to remind you its not a airforce comparison thread there are many thread going on for for that.
Thread is all this MANPAD will be unable to takedown IAF jets becoz of very advance Israeli EW suites.
You need to have LRSAM,like S400-or MRSAM to have good AD against IAF.

 

[Vapnope]

MIG-29 lock F-16

They downed an unarmed naval patrol aircraft but didn't down F-16. Lol
The downed F-16 would have been a morale booster for IAF but they chose to down A naval Patrol Aircraft instead.

 

[ravi gupta]

They downed an unarmed naval patrol aircraft but didn't down F-16. Lol
The downed F-16 would have been a morale booster for IAF but they chose to down A naval Patrol Aircraft instead.

F-16 run away back and has not not cross LOC,While your navy patrol was on reconnaissance mission in within Indian border,MIG-21 took it,We are going offtopic here.There are many threads in past for this topic and it has been discuss to death.

 

[Vapnope]

While your navy patrol was on reconnaissance mission in within Indian border

That's why you guys ran after the destroyed plane to pick it up and bring inside your boundary.

 

[ravi gupta]

That's why you guys ran after the destroyed plane to pick it up and bring inside your boundary.

Sir,Its a huge matter of debate and i am sure its must have discuss to death in the forum you can check old archives.

Thread is all this MANPADS are useless and outdated in front of Israeli heavily upgraded EW suites.What is the backup plan.
Infact OP has stated the examples also which is quite valid.

 

[rockstarIN]

Check kargil archives you will see that MIG-29 has lock F-16 couple of time.
Upgraded Miraj2000 and MKI are far superior then F-16,Why we are buying Rafeal,is becoz ,Rafael is MMRCA
and Sukhoi heavy figher ,Rafeal we have brought specificaly for our NUKE delievery,We are also going to buy 200 F-16 or Groipen single engine fighter.

Fan boy with hardly any info/knowledge, leave him

 

[The Accountant]

MIG-29 lock F-16 and then they ran away,there is no information of jamming and breaking of lock,you can write whatever you want damn its only defence forum,however facts have been recorded.
Please check indian super sukhoi upgrade there is a sticky thread in indian section to open your eyes.Sukhoi MKI is a heavy platform while F16 is medium to light comparison is not fair.Sukhoi can carry ALCM Brahmos.
Nuke delivery was with Jaguar,now it has shifted to Rafeal,why you want to poke everything in MKI,All IAF platform is role based,unfortunately we dont have JF-17,which can take the role of delivery of nuke,anti ship,interceptor,CAS,Sead Dead,not only multirole but allrounder platform.
Thats all only to remind you its not a airforce comparison thread there are many thread going on for for that.
Thread is all this MANPAD will be unable to takedown IAF jets becoz of very advance Israeli EW suites.
You need to have LRSAM,like S400-or MRSAM to have good AD against IAF.

I don't know why you Indians are so disillusioned ... Your government is making you fool and you are happy to be fool .... On the one side you are saying MKI is the best platform ,,, on the other side you are buying rafael ...

Ok I accept defeat against your BS claims ...

With all the world best techs Indians are unable to do a damn about us except for blaa blaaa ...

 

[CHI RULES]

Ok then why there was a not a single kill ? Check archives completely ... Migh 29 tried to lock but f16 not only broke the lock but also jammed the radars ... Furthermore that were previous blocks of 1980s ... Pakistan current f16s are of blk 52 or mlu upgraded to blk 52 standard which were introduced after mki which is of 90s and far advance ... Even upgraded mirrage are not a match to f16 as it is more proficient in ground attack but not competent for f16 in air to air engagement ...

If rafael are for nuclear deliveryy then why it cant be made on mki ? India is assembling mki and has full contol over it then why not given the role of nuclear strike ... In pakistan nuclear strike role is being transferred from mirrages to jf !7 ...

Fact is mki is not as good as you indians think ... Upgraded mirrage is good in some aspects ...

At the Kargil time PAF was handicapped due to unavailability of any capable BVR, though there were rumors about use of some SA origing AAM with limited BVR capability.

Most of times Russian tech got pitted against Western tech in many theaters. May be it is better for Pak to concentrate on Chinese SAMs with integration of Western Radars. The Arabs have suffered heavily against adversaries due to downgraded Russian Military equipment.

 

[Stannis Baratheon]

It depends a lot on how well trained the operators are. For example, Yugoslavia were able to use the S-125 to down a U.S stealth attack aircraft F-117. Israel may have been able to jam Syrian radars easily and Syrians didn't have ways to counter or undo it. Just like Pakistani (and Bangladeshi) pilots were doing great against Israeli ones with the same Arab jets that the Arab Air Forces were having problem with in 1973 and they did it with a lack of familiarity of the region. Thus it's hard to compare Pakistan and Syria.

1. I don't put a pence of trust in Americans. In a Pak/India war, I would consider the F16s compromised EXCEPT if every sub-system has been thoroughly analyzed for backdoors and cleared. Even the ones upgraded by turkey are suspect if any American sourced system is present.

Hasn't Pakistan been able to launch its own missiles from F-16. If that's the case, then Pakistan has definitely overwritten the initial software with its own source code. Thus, that might exclude the "compromised" part.

 

[CriticalThought]

It depends a lot on how well trained the operators are. For example, Yugoslavia were able to use the S-125 to down a U.S stealth attack aircraft F-117. Israel may have been able to jam Syrian radars easily and Syrians didn't have ways to counter or undo it. Just like Pakistani (and Bangladeshi) pilots were doing great against Israeli ones with the same Arab jets that the Arab Air Forces were having problem with in 1973 and they did it with a lack of familiarity of the region. Thus it's hard to compare Pakistan and Syria.



Hasn't Pakistan been able to launch its own missiles from F-16. If that's the case, then Pakistan has definitely overwritten the initial software with its own source code. Thus, that might exclude the "compromised" part.

Very valid points. It is all about knowing the threat being faced and finding workarounds. Success on the modern battlefield isn't simply a matter of blindly using off-the-shelf hardware. Battlefield commanders need to know the ins and outs of their systems and the enemy's systems. From Wikipedia (sorry too lazy to include link on mobile phone) it seems the Yugoslavs had modified the radar frequency and the F117 wasn't so stealthy at those frequencies, they took further advantage of weapons bays opening, and had intelligence on the movement of American jets. A very good case study in asymmetric warfare.

As far as I know, export restrictions disallow Pakistan from making any mods on the F16s otherwise it would be a logical choice to carry our ALCM Ra'ad. Whether the PAF has an ace up its sleeve.... I don't know about it and someone like me probably shouldn't know about it either.

 

[ravi gupta]

It depends a lot on how well trained the operators are. For example, Yugoslavia were able to use the S-125 to down a U.S stealth attack aircraft F-117. Israel may have been able to jam Syrian radars easily and Syrians didn't have ways to counter or undo it. Just like Pakistani (and Bangladeshi) pilots were doing great against Israeli ones with the same Arab jets that the Arab Air Forces were having problem with in 1973 and they did it with a lack of familiarity of the region. Thus it's hard to compare Pakistan and Syria.



Hasn't Pakistan been able to launch its own missiles from F-16. If that's the case, then Pakistan has definitely overwritten the initial software with its own source code. Thus, that might exclude the "compromised" part.

I dont know which Chinese or pakistani missile you fire from F-16,And information thta sourcecode is overwritten or pakistan is provided with source code,pls correct if i am wrong.Source is most welcome.

 

[Baloch Pakistani]

F16 do not need separate jamming pod... F16 on-board avionics are designed for the task .. Ask your Mig pilots and they will tell you how good it is ...

F16 is common as it is most proven platform ... If copying platform could have been that earlier

Sir I think you need to study the studies behind avionics ... Why Pakistan is investing on JF-17 whereas with slightly more bucks we could have gone for J10 ... Why are we still buying F-16 even used one and upgrading them ???

Sir these days individual asset or aircraft is nothing ... real game is net centric warfare .... Israel is pushing for ELTA/2032 as it will facilitate them in net-centric warfare ... Ability of ELTA to communicate with rest of systems of Israel is much higher as compared to APG series ...

Thats the reason Pakistan is focusing on its own platform i.e. JF17 ... So Pakistan is more inclined towards having aircraft and avionics to which it has some degree of control does that means that off the shelf solution are inferrior???

Unlike fan boy stuff real warfare is entirely different ...


I am not talking about who got net.centric capabilities first ... at this point of time both of us have it ... i am just saying that it is very difficult to jam net.centric platform ...

Your prove that mki and mirrage 2000 are better than blk 52

My proof is best platform of india is mki then why buying rafael ?

If your answer is china then rafale is no answer to j20

Short range/medium range SAM's can be net centric but can the Manpads be net centric too? I think the huge stockpile of Manpads of both countries need to upgraded or they'll be just duds against a modern jet with jamming equipment on board. Manpads can down a helicopter though as seen in syria.