Brain Drain: India suffers much worse than China

[Aepsilons]

Folks, I think the core of the issue here is that people are concerned about the net number of Indian intellectuals going abroad, but the failure in observing how many college graduates India produces in a given year is also pertinent.

The Indian Higher Education System has about 20 million college / graduate students. This is a vast and complex system. So, if India looses 5,000 or even 10,000 scientists and intellectuals in a given year --- that's really just a drop in the proverbial "bucket".

In the given sense, India truly is an academic power house. The country produces 20 million intellectuals....

And folks, this number will only continue to grow. The shear fact that nations like Japan and the United States are bringing in more and more Indian intelligentsia into their respective industries ... speaks volumes for Indian educational system and the scientists that India produces.

Period.

As our economy expands these people will be returning .So its a double edged blade.

Absolutely true, good Sir @AUSTERLITZ --- and for a nation with a gargantuan population of over 1.2 Billion, the fact that India produces some 20 million college graduates in a given year is just impressive. That number is not even the full potential of India's educational system, that number will only increase as India's standard of living and developmental index increases, which is happening as we speak. So, loosing some 5 to 10 thousand professionals is really nothing since India produces substantially more in a given year.

For gargantuan countries like say India , China, where population is in the billion level , the fear of brain drain really is impertinent. I mean, in regards to populatory demographic context, India literally produces an "Israel" every year. lol.

Seriously. Human capital in India is just untapped, and the human resource potential is just.....MASSIVE.

 

[Mr.Nair]

I believe he is india's first brain drain, most geneious mathematician ever lived in this world and died so young age

Srinivasa Ramanujan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

I believe he is india's first brain drain, most geneious mathematician ever lived in this world and died so young age

Srinivasa Ramanujan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sir, in Japan there is one Indian political scientist whom we venerate as a Kami spirit , and have enshrined for time everlasting in the pantheon of Japanese heros. His name is His Honor Radhabinod Pal, whom the Japanese Military and the Japanese History shall forever judge a man of great moral virtue and chaste purity.


He is forever adored, and venerated in Japan. Countless generations of Japanese shall forever associate THE REPUBLIC OF INDIA with the Memory of His Honor Judge Radhabinod Pal.

 

[Mr.Nair]

Another geneious human super computer which she can beat supercomputer on calculations

Shakuntala Devi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lot of indian geneious ever lived like swami vivekanada,sankaracharya,Ramanujan etc died in very young age.Why god is so cruel, if they lived longer their contribution to human life will be miracle.

 

[Aepsilons]

Another geneious human super computer which she can beat supercomputer on calculations

Shakuntala Devi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lot of indian geneious ever lived like swami vivekanada,sankaracahraya,Ramanujan etc died in very young age.Why god is so cruel, if they lived longer their contribution to human life will be miracle.

Buddy,

Indians are so well respected that even YAHOO JAPAN has recruited an Indian National to head YAHOO JAPAN.

Nikesh Arora to Replace Softbank CEO Son As Yahoo Japan Chairman - The Tech Portal

 

[Tiger Genie]

frankly speaking brain drain or any other human resource issues do not actually apply to India and China, given the size of the population. What India needs to catch up on is the PROCESS for scientific invention and productive innovation. For example, the proportion of people that continue research after their engineering or even phd should be higher. The amount of resources that medium sized, large sized and startups devote to product research must be higher than now. Think about 40 years ago what companies like Sony, Hitachi, Misubishi, Panasonic etc accomplished! you used to see a new product everyday! What a foundation they laid for the Asian tigers!

China is a very different story. They will always be a government led and controlled system until the next revolution. They will keep perfecting cloning, copying, reverse engineering, hacking, duplicating techniques. That's what that culture has been reduced to, though the amount of money that has brought in is temporarily shielding the issues. But Chinese are as great people as anyother and sooner that revolution occurs and sooner those great people are able to think and innovate freely, sooner the whole world will get better.

Imagine world benefitting from American daring, Chinese complex designs, Indian mindset, Japanese aesthetics, Russian math, Isreali gumption, Persian opulence, African strength....

 

[Aepsilons]

frankly speaking brain drain or any other human resource issues do not actually apply to India and China, given the size of the population. What India needs to catch up on is the PROCESS for scientific invention and productive innovation. For example, the proportion of people that continue research after their engineering or even phd should be higher. The amount of resources that medium sized, large sized and startups devote to product research must be higher than now. Think about 40 years ago what companies like Sony, Hitachi, Misubishi, Panasonic etc accomplished! you used to see a new product everyday! What a foundation they laid for the Asian tigers!

China is a very different story. They will always be a government led and controlled system until the next revolution. They will keep perfecting cloning, copying, reverse engineering, hacking, duplicating techniques. That's what that culture has been reduced to, though the amount of money that has brought in is temporarily shielding the issues. But Chinese are as great people as anyother and sooner that revolution occurs and sooner those great people are able to think and innovate freely, sooner the whole world will get better.

Imagine world benefitting from American daring, Chinese complex designs, Indian mindset, Japanese aesthetics, Russian math, Isreali gumption, Persian opulence, African strength....

Tiger Genie, you hit the target dead on. India , as a gargantuan nation in terms of human capital , is practically immune from the processes related to brain drain. Even Bangladesh, which is roughly a tenth the size of India, is also the source for human capital for some leading states in ASEAN, specifically Malaysia, which has agreed to import about 1.5 Million Bangladeshis to offset the Malaysian manufacturing industry. In fact we talked about this in another thread, didn't we @macnurv @iajdani @UKBengali . The reason for this is because Bangladesh is a huge country, with a population of over 156 million (imagine that is the population of France, Germany, and United Kingdom combined!!) and the loss of say 1.5 million is practically nill. Now, imagine India's predicament. A nation of over 1.2 BILLION ---- and growing !

Technically India could export 50 million professionals and still it wouldn't put a dent in the Indian population and Indian work force potential, let alone the MASSIVE human resource potential.

 

[macnurv]

As our economy expands these people will be returning .So its a double edged blade.

Yes expansion of economy would be an important benchmark, but unless the living standards are raised its highly unlikely people who immigrated to western countries would return. Not to mention if your kids are born and raised in west, it is ever more difficult for them to return. As in most cases, children of expats consider their parents countries as somewhere they spend holidays when they were young.
I have another point to raise here, I think one should always be aware of his roots but just because ones parents are from a country, it necessarily does not mean that person might hold the same feelings for that country.

Give it 10-15 years and then very few Indians will migrate abroad.

I disagree, the number might decrease but because of the size of the country some people will still choose to try their lucks abroad.

Quota system in any form is a death warrant for merit.

Basically we in our Indo-Pak scenario are making up for the inept /failed policies enforced upon us by our politicians.Quota system is particularly carved out to serve the interests of the backward regions.Now you tell me why a backward area have to enjoy the same status for more than half a century?

Even if you have to apply it, then scrutinize it.Set a limit , like for such a period this area has been given a quota of that much in these particular fields, as the area lacks basic facilities & faculties to support itself.And then put some responsibilities on the shoulders of the individuals who may be enjoying such a facility.

But, it won't happen.As i said it's a political shit/corruption that's presented in front of us in a fancy platter.There's no escape because, it's only termed as a "temporary measure" but, in reality it's not.It's here to stay.


PS.
They did not include any data from Pakistan.It could have been interesting.

Not all quotas are bad for instance disabled person, and I also agree to allocate quota for women but having said that merit should not be overlooked and must ensure that merit is placed the utmost priority.

frankly speaking brain drain or any other human resource issues do not actually apply to India and China, given the size of the population. What India needs to catch up on is the PROCESS for scientific invention and productive innovation. For example, the proportion of people that continue research after their engineering or even phd should be higher. The amount of resources that medium sized, large sized and startups devote to product research must be higher than now. Think about 40 years ago what companies like Sony, Hitachi, Misubishi, Panasonic etc accomplished! you used to see a new product everyday! What a foundation they laid for the Asian tigers!

China is a very different story. They will always be a government led and controlled system until the next revolution. They will keep perfecting cloning, copying, reverse engineering, hacking, duplicating techniques. That's what that culture has been reduced to, though the amount of money that has brought in is temporarily shielding the issues. But Chinese are as great people as anyother and sooner that revolution occurs and sooner those great people are able to think and innovate freely, sooner the whole world will get better.

Imagine world benefitting from American daring, Chinese complex designs, Indian mindset, Japanese aesthetics, Russian math, Isreali gumption, Persian opulence, African strength....

Hmm interesting analysis, but I disagree. Yes brain drain is something that is a byproduct of modern and more connected world. And it is within the rights of people, especially if they had paid for their own education and state played little to no role in that.
India is huge country and with a huge talent pool but for reasons the potential of the country is still not fully realized. Having a huge population has its pros and cons but in the long run I think uncontrolled population growth will hamper the human development, not to mention economic growth must be kept at a certain level year after year if the country wishes to prosper. In the long run population size would be the unmaking of such big countries.
China is not all about copying, duplicating and reverse engineering, some of the top notch research is being done in China and let us not forget, quite a number of US trained academicians are also returning to Chinese Universities, and as a result several Chinese universities had moved higher places in several ranking system. If we are going by stereotypes India doesn't have much to show for as far as pure innovation is concerned, most IT companies rehash the codes and produce the same product over and over. Such statements are injustice to both.

Another thing that several Indian friends of mine who are top notch professionals in their fields was lack of opportunity in India and who you know matters more than what you know. But same is the problem for Pakistan, and could be for Bangladesh.

Tiger Genie, you hit the target dead on. India , as a gargantuan nation in terms of human capital , is practically immune from the processes related to brain drain. Even Bangladesh, which is roughly a tenth the size of India, is also the source for human capital for some leading states in ASEAN, specifically Malaysia, which has agreed to import about 1.5 Million Bangladeshis to offset the Malaysian manufacturing industry. In fact we talked about this in another thread, didn't we @macnurv @iajdani @UKBengali . The reason for this is because Bangladesh is a huge country, with a population of over 156 million (imagine that is the population of France, Germany, and United Kingdom combined!!) and the loss of say 1.5 million is practically nill. Now, imagine India's predicament. A nation of over 1.2 BILLION ---- and growing !

Technically India could export 50 million professionals and still it wouldn't put a dent in the Indian population and Indian work force potential, let alone the MASSIVE human resource potential.

@Nihonjin1051 Indeed we did discuss that, but what Malaysia is interested in is unskilled labour, not the skilled professionals. Several reports have compared Malaysian tech manufacturing industry to modern day slavery.
I do not feel that education system of sub-continent is geared towards innovation and invention rather more towards reproducing and the fact people from sub-continent are also hard working.
US still remains the destination for professionals from China, India, Pakistan & Bangladesh because that is the place they feel they can really accomplish what they had been denied in their countries. Overall except for education system in Scandinavian countries, all over the world schools are teaching using methods that are obsolete and how long this will work, I don't know.

 

[northeast]

Half of brains of india is working for foreign countries.That's typical feature of a colony.Britain used to take a lot of talent people from india too.Does it matter？well if you can't use these brains well，then better let others use it.

 

[Aepsilons]

Half of brains of india is working for foreign countries.That's typical feature of a colony.Britain used to take a lot of talent people from india too.Does it matter？well if you can't use these brains well，then better let others use it.

Half of brains? No. That's a misconception or mis-comprehension on your part. A better , more accurate statement would be --- India is in tune with the globalized community. The concept of isolationism is alien to the Indian Brain, which is capable to subsume into any local culture. The Indian Brain is adaptable, malleable, hence their success wherever they go.

In fact, this goes for most South Asian professionals that I have had the pleasure of coming into contact with; Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan. They adapt easily, and they work hard.

 

[TaiShang]

China has been in fact wor

@Bussard Ramjet Dear sir, please spend some time for your own country if u are really Indian, worry a little bit less for China. Just check how many Indians scientists in NASA and silicon valley. And check how many top-notch American Chinese scientists and technicians have been home, like in Thousand Talents Project.
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/海外高层次人才引进计划
View attachment 233493

I do accept to some extent it is a lose for China, but overseas Chinese also make huge contributions to their motherland, thanks to their knowledge brought from abroad. And if u do speak Chinese(u said u would learn), just check how many technicians in CRRC(CSR&CNR) are educated overseas. I have told @Echo_419 about the structure of railway sciences research in China, If Bussy can spend a little time checking where some of the leading scientists in China's railway sector are educated, u may change your mind a little.
https://defence.pk/threads/chinese-hsr-news-and-information：original-translations.363685/page-41
Then Check this one, do you know how many scientists and technicians of this institute are educated overseas?
Beijing Genomics Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of my mother's classmate, who once worked for FDA's toxicology institute, he was recruited by Fudan University under the scheme of Thousand Talents. He is one of the most renowned scientist in genomics. As for me, studying in a top10 university in China, almost all my professors received their higher education in US.

All in all, China loses a lot, but China gains most. U lose some average, let them receive training in US btw. You also get the best returned, if you are the best, you will be targeted and called back. Due to the contribution of returned talents, China spends far less time in almost every sector. American probably needs to spend 10 million dollars to cultivate a top Chinese scientist in their research centres, ultimately, for China?

@Bussard Ramjet What's your opinion on your compatriots' comments about quota system? I have read too many those kind of identical comments about quota system. And what's your opinion on those typical excuses like Congress, Swiss Bank, etc, when it comes to development?


Country rankings | Nature Publishing Index Asia-Pacific | Nature Publishing Group
Current Index date range: 2014-06-30 ~ 2015-06-29
These rankings are based on the number1 of papers that were published within the last 12 months from institutions located in the countries listed below. These rankings only include papers that were published as Articles, Letters and Brief Communications, or Reviews in Nature and/or Nature monthly research journals.
View attachment 233499

It seems that merely a Chinese university can do better than an entire country.
@Edison Chen @terranMarine @TaiShang @Shotgunner51@cirr @zeronet @Speeder 2

View attachment 233501

Great post.

The Indian is very much obsessed with China while his own country suffers from the same issue at a deeper levels. Besides, we did not hear the Indian write anything about UK's loss off brain power.

Maybe he can now promotes himself to Greece brain drain?

This may be Greece’s biggest brain drain since the death of Socrates - MarketWatch

India's loss for talent will increase while China's situation has been statistically improving with more and more advanced degree holders returning back to the homeland. The Indian situation is understandable; it is possibly not very much conducive to scientific development when you have all the corruption and nepotism of the Indian system.

Besides, a majority of the population is kept ignorant and under dire filthy conditions -- ignorant of even their own conditions. That's the only way to sustain the elitist dictatorship over the mass population who should have already risen up and brought down the inefficient and corrupt regime long before. But, to be able to do so, they first need to know about it. So long as they are kept ignorant, the system is safe.

One of the Indians above talks about the Chinese patent system, which is an integral part of the world's leading patent institution. Hence the Indian way of doing science: Just pull out some numbers from the rear end and hope that no body will come out and scientifically trash it. The NPI findings, by the way, tell that, the science produced annually by CASS is much more than the one produced in entire India.

 

[northeast]

So you mean the US of A as a leading country in science is not in tune with globalized community and countries like iran and Nigeria is most in tune with globalized community？Sorry bro，That doesn't make any sense at all.talent people leaving their hometown and go west for a better life，not because of their disire to in tune with global community

Half of brains? No. That's a misconception or mis-comprehension on your part. A better , more accurate statement would be --- India is in tune with the globalized community. The concept of isolationism is alien to the Indian Brain, which is capable to subsume into any local culture. The Indian Brain is adaptable, malleable, hence their success wherever they go.

In fact, this goes for most South Asian professionals that I have had the pleasure of coming into contact with; Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan. They adapt easily, and they work hard.

 

[TaiShang]

Half of brains? No. That's a misconception or mis-comprehension on your part. A better , more accurate statement would be --- India is in tune with the globalized community.

Do not polish Indians, please They will believe it.

People can stay in their own countries and still remain perfectly in tune with the globalized community. Just like most of the Swede or Japanese do.

 

[Aepsilons]

So you mean the US of A as a leading country in science is not in tune with globalized community and countries like iran and Nigeria is most in tune with globalized community？Sorry bro，That doesn't make any sense at all.talent people leaving their hometown and go west for a better life，not because of their disire to in tune with global community

Well, in the case of the United States, its an immigrant nation, my friend. The United States is composed of immigrants or descendents of immigrants from literally all around the globe; Africa, Europe, Asia, Latin America. The use of the Visa to attract foreign students (like myself and others) is just a natural process, an manifestation of the United States' own soft power, which attracts students to study there; be they from Japan, Taiwan, China, India, Sweden, UK, Germany, Pakistan, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, South Africa et al.

We live in an interesting time, my friend. A time where national borders become mere abstract concepts , and no longer pose impediment to travel, trade, residency.

Do not polish Indians, please They will believe in it.

People can stay in their own countries and still remain perfectly in tune with the globalized community. Just like most of the Swede or Japanese do.

lol, @TaiShang , we need to discuss more over beer , buddy.

 

[TaiShang]

We live in an interesting time, my friend. A time where national borders become mere abstract concepts , and no longer pose impediment to travel, trade, residency.

Interesting times, indeed. International travel might be more convenient now, but, I cannot tell borders are more porous. The idea of nation state, sovereignty and border protection probably would have never been as popular. hence, peoples move, but, they are tracked, recorded, monitored and punished when they overstay their visa. If you over stay your visa in Taiwan, you are deported and never be allowed to visit the country for at least two years.

And physical barriers across borders are stronger than ever. Turkey plans a high wall on its border with Syria (well if their crazy religio-president does not declare war before that). Israel is all about walls. The US-Mexico border well, you know, citizen patrols and all that.

Interesting times, yes, but, interesting may not always mean for the better. In real sense, the world was probably more integrated in middle ages. Now we are over-"informatized," but I am not sure if we are more aware or integrated.

Well, in the case of the United States, its an immigrant nation, my friend. The United States is composed of immigrants or descendents of immigrants from literally all around the globe; Africa, Europe, Asia, Latin America. The use of the Visa to attract foreign students (like myself and others) is just a natural process, an manifestation of the United States' own soft power, which attracts students to study there; be they from Japan, Taiwan, China, India, Sweden, UK, Germany, Pakistan, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, South Africa et al.

We live in an interesting time, my friend. A time where national borders become mere abstract concepts , and no longer pose impediment to travel, trade, residency.



lol, @TaiShang , we need to discuss more over beer , buddy.

At the first opportunity, bro