Brain Drain: India suffers much worse than China

[Echo_419]

Migrant brainpower

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21656175-migrant-brainpower

Looks like only 17% of patents filed by all Chinese are from oversea Chinese，much better figure than India‘s 48%，even better than Russia and UK.

LOL IN YOUR FACE @Bussard Ramjet ,still think China is the biggest loser of brainpower?

As the economic growth picks up much of the brain power will return

@Bussard Ramjet Dear sir, please spend some time for your own country if u are really Indian, worry a little bit less for China. Just check how many Indians scientists in NASA and silicon valley. And check how many top-notch American Chinese scientists and technicians have been home, like in Thousand Talents Project.
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/海外高层次人才引进计划
View attachment 233493

I do accept to some extent it is a lose for China, but overseas Chinese also make huge contributions to their motherland, thanks to their knowledge brought from abroad. And if u do speak Chinese(u said u would learn), just check how many technicians in CRRC(CSR&CNR) are educated overseas. I have told @Echo_419 about the structure of railway sciences research in China, If Bussy can spend a little time checking where some of the leading scientists in China's railway sector are educated, u may change your mind a little.
https://defence.pk/threads/chinese-hsr-news-and-information：original-translations.363685/page-41
Then Check this one, do you know how many scientists and technicians of this institute are educated overseas?
Beijing Genomics Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of my mother's classmate, who once worked for FDA's toxicology institute, he was recruited by Fudan University under the scheme of Thousand Talents. He is one of the most renowned scientist in genomics. As for me, studying in a top10 university in China, almost all my professors received their higher education in US.

All in all, China loses a lot, but China gains most. U lose some average, let them receive training in US btw. You also get the best returned, if you are the best, you will be targeted and called back. Due to the contribution of returned talents, China spends far less time in almost every sector. American probably needs to spend 10 million dollars to cultivate a top Chinese scientist in their research centres, ultimately, for China?

@Bussard Ramjet What's your opinion on your compatriots' comments about quota system? I have read too many those kind of identical comments about quota system, in literally any comparison-related thread.


Country rankings | Nature Publishing Index Asia-Pacific | Nature Publishing Group
Current Index date range: 2014-06-30 ~ 2015-06-29
These rankings are based on the number1 of papers that were published within the last 12 months from institutions located in the countries listed below. These rankings only include papers that were published as Articles, Letters and Brief Communications, or Reviews in Nature and/or Nature monthly research journals.
View attachment 233499

It seems that merely a Chinese university can do better than an entire country.
@Edison Chen @terranMarine @TaiShang @Shotgunner51@cirr @zeronet @Speeder 2 @Chinese-Dragon

View attachment 233501

Institution outputs | Nature Index
View attachment 233545

The govt of India has intiated a similar program to attract the best of the best Indians back from abroad,though becuz of a smaller economy we have less resources & speed will be less but as the economic growth picks up so will the speed

China has been in fact wor



Great post.

The Indian is very much obsessed with China while his own country suffers from the same issue at a deeper levels. Besides, we did not hear the Indian write anything about UK's loss off brain power.

Maybe he can now promotes himself to Greece brain drain?

This may be Greece’s biggest brain drain since the death of Socrates - MarketWatch

India's loss for talent will increase while China's situation has been statistically improving with more and more advanced degree holders returning back to the homeland. The Indian situation is understandable; it is possibly not very much conducive to scientific development when you have all the corruption and nepotism of the Indian system.

Besides, a majority of the population is kept ignorant and under dire filthy conditions -- ignorant of even their own conditions. That's the only way to sustain the elitist dictatorship over the mass population who should have already risen up brought down the inefficient and corrupt regime long before. But, to be able to do so, they first need to know about it. So long as they are kept ignorant, the system is safe.

One of the Indians above talks about the Chinese patent system, which is an integral part of the world's leading patent institution. Hence the Indian way of doing science: Just pull out some numbers from the rear end and hope that no body will come out and scientifically trash it. The NPI findings, by the way, tell that, the science produced annually by CASS is much more than the one produced in entire India.

You know very less about us comrade so I advise you to not comment on matters you remotely know nothing of & do tell how pur conditipuron will only worsen with time

 

[Jlaw]

As the economic growth picks up much of the brain power will return



The govt of India has intiated a similar program to attract the best of the best Indians back from abroad,though becuz of a smaller economy we have less resources & speed will be less but as the economic growth picks up so will the speed



You know very less about us comrade so I advise you to not comment on matters you remotely know nothing of & do tell how pur conditipuron will only worsen with time

The Indians I know from work tell us they don't want to go back to India . They like it in Canada. In fact most of them who were born in India but left at an early age do not even want to go back to India for a visit

 

[Echo_419]

The Indians I know from work tell us they don't want to go back to India . They like it in Canada. In fact most of them who were born in India but left at an early age do not even want to go back to India for a visit

That is correct,hell even my own sister (real) says that she ain't coming back anytime soon(she is a automobile engineer in valiant) the quality of life in Canada is much better than in India,who in their right mind would want to comeback to the country.that's why the govt of India has initiated many programs to attract the best of the best Indians from abroad & already we have achieved some success which will only increase in the future.

 

[Azizam]

Hi @Azizam,


What’s interesting to note that as per the research conducted by Murray and Marx (2013), there were an estimated 214 million people living outside of their country of nationality – a substantial rise from 150 million people in 2000. This represents over just 3% of the world’s population and numbers are growing exponentially. Its even estimated that migrants include individuals who have voluntarily left their homes in search of new opportunities, as well as approximately 44 million individuals who have been forcibly displaced due to persecution in their native countries (that is, asylum seekers and refugees).

Human migration is clearly occurring at unprecedented rates and “immigration, cultural diversity and integration” are among the most central challenges for modern societies. In the United States and other parts of the world, authorized and unauthorized immigration patterns have been highly politicized with widespread public discourse on whether to encourage or restrain human movement and for whom. Its interesting that even in the Untied States, a nation which is composed of immigrants or people who had immigration ancestors, --- the attitude towards immigration tend to vacillate over time, with several factors influencing public attitudes towards immigration, including both economic and non-economic factors.

I think its important to note that some of the fears of this so called established group is based on perceived realistic and symbolic threats. For example, some realistic threats include the challenges to welfare of the majority group. For example, during times of economic hardship, immigrants may be perceived as a threat to scarce resources (e.g, jobs, welfare, healthcare benefits) and thus they are categorized (unfairly at that) as a realistic threat to the host community members’ employment opportunities and even welfare. This is in line with demographic factors that have also been linked with prejudicial attitudes ergo, educational level (there is association of lower educational attainment and higher prejudicial attitudes) and employment characteristics (eg, unemployed , unskilled, and low-skilled manual labors report greater prejudicial attitudes). Symbolic threats represents challenges to the morals, values and identity of the majority community. Issues such as perceived value differences due to culture, or religion are considered symbolic threats and are perceived as threatening to the social fabric of the host community.


These are definitely interesting factors and themes to review/ analyze/ study.


What’s your opinion?


Best,
@Nihonjin1051



Reference:

Murray, K. E., & Marx, D. M. (2013). Attitudes toward unauthorized immigrants, authorized immigrants, and refugees. Cultural Diversity And Ethnic Minority Psychology, 19(3), 332-341. doi:10.1037/a0030812

Sorry for the late reply @Nihonjin1051.

Interesting points. Immigration is only set to increase and it's not a new concept either. Throughout in the history, there was some sort of immigration in almost every part of the world. In the recent times, western civilisations enjoyed unmatched power and influence and with it came numerous racial supremacist theories that put the rest of the world in an "Inferior" position and it initially included even countries like Italy and even Ireland (due to religion?). In the USA in most cases, it was only the people from countries that were considered to be inferior while those who came from countries like UK and Scandinavia (that were regarded as superior) were desired. So I think, it's the feeling towards immigrants is directly correlated with the origin of the employees. Another good example is Japanese immigrants in Brazil. Initially they had to face some sort of injustice from White Brazilians but as Japan developed in the post WW2 era, the reputation of Japanese in Brazil also dramatically improved to the point that they are now among the desired immigrants. Even today, those who emigrate from developed countries are not considered as threat to resources however hard economic conditions are. You see, it's for this reason I think if the gap between countries lowers in relation to wealth, cultural practices, standards of living and contribution to science and technology, some sort of free movement can be achieved.

 

[xyxmt]

Even current Indian leadership is showing brain drain effects.

 

[Luca1]

That is, half of Indian brain is working for the US economy.

If you been to India, you would know why Indians would all stay in America if they can... But H1b is not a green card.

 

[Tiger Genie]

..I am pretty sure I was talking about patent filing，not some aftermarket IP protection，seems that you brought it up yourself. If you are gonna throw up, you can throw up in your own mouth

come on @utp45 you can do better than that. IP protection is NOT after market! By saying that you just proved and admitted how China feels about intellectual property. Patents are intellectual property. Copyrights are intellectual property.

You guys do not respect anyone's IP and steal left right and center. Whenever there is anything progressed in any of the labs worldwide, some Chinese guy in some China university goes and files it as if it is his own. It is my impression that a vast majority of patents filed inside China are nothing but copycat patents from abroad.

I don't expect you to accept it of course, you will be in dire trouble if you do.

If you been to India, you would know why Indians would all stay in America if they can... But H1b is not a green card.

Not all. I'd love to go back and live in India ...what are you basing your statement on?

 

[Luca1]

come on @utp45 you can do better than that. IP protection is NOT after market! By saying that you just proved and admitted how China feels about intellectual property. Patents are intellectual property. Copyrights are intellectual property.

You guys do not respect anyone's IP and steal left right and center. Whenever there is anything progressed in any of the labs worldwide, some Chinese guy in some China university goes and files it as if it is his own. It is my impression that a vast majority of patents filed inside China are nothing but copycat patents from abroad.

I don't expect you to accept it of course, you will be in dire trouble if you do.



Not all. I'd love to go back and live in India ...what are you basing your statement on?

Basing it on Indian Americans.

 

[Tiger Genie]

Basing it on Indian Americans.

This Indian American is telling you that is not the case.

 

[TaiShang]

Anyway, he is Indian in India, from Mumbai I think. Different from most Indians here who reside overseas and are shame to be back to India, dreaming their afterlife being white Brahmins. From this angle, salute!

I agree, compared to other Indians, he at least seems to take it humbly when you respond them in kind by staying silent. Other Indians will resist it, deny it, derail it, and in the end will have the final say while the rest is already confused about what is the topic at hand.

I understand why Indians leave India in scores; that has to do with the lack of opportunity. Happens everywhere. But I do not share their optimism that the tide will change anytime soon.

Naturally, if India starts to offer some decent life, then people will start to return, and, as it offers more, India will start to receive other people, as well.

China's retention and return rates have been constantly increasing.

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

come on @utp45 you can do better than that. IP protection is NOT after market! By saying that you just proved and admitted how China feels about intellectual property. Patents are intellectual property. Copyrights are intellectual property.

You guys do not respect anyone's IP and steal left right and center. Whenever there is anything progressed in any of the labs worldwide, some Chinese guy in some China university goes and files it as if it is his own. It is my impression that a vast majority of patents filed inside China are nothing but copycat patents from abroad.

I don't expect you to accept it of course, you will be in dire trouble if you do.



Not all. I'd love to go back and live in India ...what are you basing your statement on?

Your impression? Nice one. I still under the impression that drug dealing is legal in the US because I once saw someone selling drugs on New York street. Just like you think a patrent filing system is at fault because you found a Samsung knockoff in a Shanghai store.

You are welcome to open a new thread to discuss your impression on China’s overall IP protection sir，but stay on topic in this one please.

 

[AndrewJin]

Your impression? Nice one. I still under the impression that drug dealing is legal in the US because I once saw someone selling drugs on New York street. Just like you think a patrent filing system is at fault because you found a Samsung knockoff in a Shanghai store.

You are welcome to open a new thread to discuss your impression on China’s overall IP protection sir，but stay on topic in this one please.

Well said.
Pls leave him alone, his comments are very unconstuctive and meaningless. And forcing him to say a lie like he would go back to India and live there is not humanitarian for him. No matter how brilliant Modiji is, if he is surrounded by people like him, India is still hopeless.

I agree, compared to other Indians, he at least seems to take it humbly when you respond them in kind by staying silent. Other Indians will resist it, deny it, derail it, and in the end will have the final say while the rest is already confused about what is the topic at hand.

Yes. He never brings in Pakistan, BD or Sri Lanka. Well, I remember Chinese netizens' comment on Chinese translation of PDF threads, @Bussard Ramjet is exceptional, the rest live in delusion, which, is good news to us.

I understand why Indians leave India in scores; that has to do with the lack of opportunity. Happens everywhere. But I do not share their optimism that the tide will change anytime soon.

Naturally, if India starts to offer some decent life, then people will start to return, and, as it offers more, India will start to receive other people, as well.

China's retention and return rates have been constantly increasing.

I think the massive return started around 2008.
The new dean of my college received his higher education and postgraduate research in US/France. He is now running a national key laboratory. It's a national scheme. Not just Chinese, but non-Chinese talents are also coming to China

Some of the national-level projects,

• Hundred Talents（1994）
• Recruitment project of global expert(Thousand Talents) （2008）
• Young overseas high-level talents introduction plan（Youth Thousand Talents) （2011）
• Ten thousand talents （2012）

为给“青年千人计划”人选提供必要的科研条件，使他们潜心开展科研工作，由中央财政给予“青年千人计划”入选者每人50万元的生活补助、3年100万－300万元的科研经费补助；其他工作条件和生活待遇，参照“千人计划”现有政策执行。
For one talent of the Youth Thousand Talents, half a million yuan（$161,000) per year for living expenses, at least 1-3million as research funds.

My city also has a talent recruitment plan, called Wuhan Talents, mainly focusing on application of hi-tech. The policies are even better than some national plans. I'm sure cites in East China have much more competitive schemes. Check the details of 2014 plan, all together 260 scientists and technicians from China and abroad, they will be working in research institutes, SOEs and private companies.

• 1、为入选人员在汉领办、创办企业或研发机构，择优给予创业扶持资金。对入选的领军人才，按项目给予300万元至500万元的资金支持；对入选的高层次人才，按项目给予50万元至100万元的资金支持。
• 2、设立专项创业投资引导资金，鼓励各类创业风险投资机构或个人对入选人员创业提供融资支持。
• 3、为入选人员在汉创业活动给予当年度利息额25％的贷款贴息，贴息总额最高可达100万元。
• 4、支持入选人员获取自主知识产权并给予费用补贴。

One example of Thousand Talents,
a renewed scientist of
protein X-ray crystallography
Shi Yigong
Quoted from Wiki

Career
Shi Yigong received his bachelor's degree from Tsinghua University, Beijing. In 1995 when receiving his PhD degree in Biophysics from Johns Hopkins University, he has determined the crystal structure of several critical apoptotic proteins, including apaf-1, DIAP1, and the BIR3 domain of XIAP. He was the Warner-Lambert/Parke-Davis Professor in the department of Molecular Biology at Princeton University. In June 2008, he was selected as a Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator.[1] However, he rejected the award upon resigning his position at Princeton University in order to pursue his career at Tsinghua University, Beijing, becoming the dean of life sciences there.[2] In 2003, he was appointed a Chair Professor of Tsinghua's Department of Biological Sciences and Biotechnology. He was appointed Vice Director of Tsinghua's Institute of Biomedicine and Vice Dean of Tsinghua's Department of Biological Sciences and Biotechnology in 2007. He was appointed Dean of Tsinghua's School of Life Sciences (replacing the Department of Biological Sciences and Biotechnology) in 2009.

Shi renounced U.S. citizenship in 2011.

Awards

• 2014, the Gregori Aminoff Prize, from the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
• 2010 Raymond and Beverly Sackler International Prize[5]
• Irving Sigal Young Investigator Award, from the Protein Society
• Searle Scholar Award
• Rita Allen Scholar Award

@TaiShang This page introduces numerous provincial and municipal talents recruitment plans, maybe useful for you. 地方引才计划_千人计划网

 

[war is peace]

china can stand still for 50 years and india will not surpass them. This record proves that.

 

[Tiger Genie]

Your impression? Nice one. I still under the impression that drug dealing is legal in the US because I once saw someone selling drugs on New York street. Just like you think a patrent filing system is at fault because you found a Samsung knockoff in a Shanghai store.

You are welcome to open a new thread to discuss your impression on China’s overall IP protection sir，but stay on topic in this one please.

nice try, no cigar. 'My impression' does not imply witnessing just one transaction and jumping to a conclusion. You guys are getting unnecessarily desperate clutching !

What part of Intellectual Property and patents/copyrights do you not understand? From the looks of it, ALL of it! I have a lot of good things to say for Chinese but honesty and integrity is not one of them. They steal quite shamelessly - whether it be designs, patents, process....and when they are unable to do so, they simply have some operative physically smuggle stuff out in memory sticks. For each Chinese caught trying to smuggle stuff out of labs (Jet Propulsion Lab ring a bell?) there are a thousand that don't get caught.

 

[TaiShang]

@utp45 , better ignore the Indian above. He is just being Indian. When they are ignored, they will quickly sneak away for other fertile grounds.

***

Patenting Activities of Chinese Firms – Extent and the Role of Economic Policy

by Philipp Böing (ZEW Centre of European Economic Research) and Prof. Dr. Elisabeth Müller (Frankfurt School of Finance & Management)

2013

Overview on patenting in China
In the year 2012 China’s State Intellectual Property Office received 652,777 invention patent applications – 140 times more than one decade earlier. In China, three different patent types exist. Besides innovation patents, which are used for the protection of technology, also utility and design patents can be filed. The inventive step and the economic value of these patent types are generally much lower. As only 13% are filed by foreign applicants, the majority of 87% applications originated from domestic actors. Around 60% of the effective domestic patent applications are filed by firms, while the remaining share is contributed by universities, research institutes, and private inventors. These figures show that domestic firms have become the most important source of inventive activity in China’s economy.

Considering China’s geographic structure, the coastal region is leading the domestic patenting trend. The single most powerful province is Jiangsu, followed by Guangdong and Beijing. These top three provinces alone contribute more than 40% of the domestic invention patent applications. The high level of regional concentration also emphasizes the unbalanced development of China’s economy. China is today one of the top contributors to the international patent applications of the PCT system. Whereas in the year 2000 China was number 16 in the ranking of the countries with the most PCT applications, China climbed to rank 4 in the year 2012. Chinese firms, universities and public research institutes are all among the top 10 worldwide applicants in the respective category. In the ranking of firms ZTE Corporation is the worldwide number 1 and Huawei Technologies is at place 4.

Patenting activity of listed firms
Patenting is already very common among listed firms. 60% of firms listed on the stock exchanges of mainland China in Shanghai and Shenzhen had filed for at least one patent application by the year 2010. For patenting firms the average size of the patent portfolio is 29 applications with a much lower median value of just 4. As in other countries, the size of the patent portfolio has a very skew distribution. Even in the 90th percentile the portfolio contains just 33 applications. This shows impressively that the technological capabilities are concentrated in a few very well performing firms. The large influence of the state in the Chinese economy is reflected in the ownership types of the listed firms: whereas 47% of firms are in private ownership, 18% are owned by the central state and 35% by local states. However, the ownership type does not influence the propensity to patent. This propensity is identical for all three ownership categories.

The role of economic policy
The Chinese government is clearly encouraging the current patenting trend. In the function of an economic planner it first issues guidelines which provide orientation regarding how many patent applications should be filed up to a certain year and then makes sure that these benchmarks are met or outperformed. Currently around ten future-oriented national patenting targets can be found in China’s patenting policies. For example, “China’s National Patent Development Strategy (2011-2020)” sets a quantitative target of 2 million annual patent filings by the year 2015. Further, the State Council’s “Notice on IPR in Strategic Emerging Industries” advocates that by 2015, the number of international patent applications in strategic emerging industries should be tripled compared to the year 2010. To encourage patenting on the regional level, provincial governments grant patent subsidies in almost all provinces. According to China’s national patent law a reduction or delay of patenting fees is possible and should ensure that patents are filed regardless of the financial situation of the applicant. For the evaluation of state owned firms and its management the government imposed indicators which are directly related to the number of patent applications of the respective firm. Obviously, these measures do not only increase the number of domestic and international patent applications but also decrease the average quality of patent applications originating from China. This development has been widely criticized by foreign policy makers and researchers alike. Nonetheless, these trends clearly point out that the total volume of Chinese patent applications should not be mistaken as a direct interpretation of innovative performance or economic value.

Outlook
Given the current slowdown in the economic development, it is unlikely that Chinese firms can sustain the impressive growth rates of patent applications. The open question remains as to how valuable the current patent applications will turn out to be in the future. It will be interesting to see how many applications will actually be granted by the Chinese patent office and by international patent offices. Furthermore, it is currently unclear whether firms will hold on to their rights after they have to pay renewal fees. Only if firms spend their own money to keep and defend their patent rights one can assume that the protected technology has an economic value.

Sources

• Philipp Böing, Elisabeth Müller, Philipp Sandner (2013), "In-house R&D and External Knowledge Acquisition – What Makes Chinese Firms Productive?".
• European Chamber, 2012, "Dulling the Cutting-Edge: How Patent-Related Policies and Practices Hamper Innovation in China".
• SIPO (2013), 国家知识产权局专利业务工作及综合管理统计月报 --国家知识产权局.
• WIPO (2013), Statistical Country Profiles.