Brain Drain: India suffers much worse than China

[Aepsilons]

Interesting times, indeed. International travel might be more convenient now, but, I cannot tell borders are more porous. The idea of nation state, sovereignty and border protection probably would have never been as popular. hence, peoples move, but, they are tracked, recorded, monitored and punished when they overstay their visa. If you over stay your visa in Taiwan, you are deported and never be allowed to visit the country for at least two years.

And physical barriers across borders are stronger than ever. Turkey plans a high wall on its border with Syria (well if their crazy religio-president does not declare war before that). Israel is all about walls. The US-Mexico border well, you know, citizen patrols and all that.

Interesting times, yes, but, interesting may not always mean for the better. In real sense, the world was probably more integrated in middle ages. Now we are over-"informatized," but I am not sure if we are more aware or integrated.

Very candid analysis, buddy. Isn't it interesting that with the advent of the information super highway , with development of free trade areas amongst nations, visa-free stays for some countries and with the endorsement of cultural sensitivities, still, within some groups of people or even in our own individual intrapsyche there is a sense of "us" and "them" ? I do long for a time , a time when we shall not be punished for over staying in a particular country, or where cultural transmission will no longer be basis for 'un-patriotism'. Perhaps I'm a bit progressive minded, a las, my thought. Sometimes i wish i could fast forward 2-3 centuries and see whether or not mankind and human civilization may have moved towards singularity , unitary solvency.

LOL.

 

[Azizam]

Interesting times, indeed. International travel might be more convenient now, but, I cannot tell borders are more porous. The idea of nation state, sovereignty and border protection probably would have never been as popular. hence, peoples move, but, they are tracked, recorded, monitored and punished when they overstay their visa. If you over stay your visa in Taiwan, you are deported and never be allowed to visit the country for at least two years.

And physical barriers across borders are stronger than ever. Turkey plans a high wall on its border with Syria (well if their crazy religio-president does not declare war before that). Israel is all about walls. The US-Mexico border well, you know, citizen patrols and all that.

Interesting times, yes, but, interesting may not always mean for the better. In real sense, the world was probably more integrated in middle ages. Now we are over-"informatized," but I am not sure if we are more aware or integrated.



At the first opportunity, bro

The reason for that is inequality of wealth and standards of life. If the rest of the world can keep their standards to match the developed world then more open borders will be a possibility. Just look at free movement among rich nations in Western Europe. There's no opposition to that but once the much poorer Eastern Europe is added to it then inevitably it creates a flood of immigrants from Eastern Europe to Western Europe which ends up creating problems.

 

[Aepsilons]

The reason for that is inequality of wealth and standards of life. If the rest of the world can keep their standards to match the developed world then more open borders will be a possibility. Just look at free movement among rich nations in Western Europe. There's no opposition to that but once the much poorer Eastern Europe is added to it then inevitably it creases a flood of immigrants from Eastern Europe to Western Europe which ends up creating problems.

I think that's an issue that will always be present in any society, @Azizam . In my analysis of US society's views towards immigrants, the established groups always held negative views of new immigrants; this was the case when the WASP (white anglo-saxon protestants) resented the arrival of immigrants from Germany, or the Catholics from Italy, Spain, the Orthodox from Greece and Russia. Eventually the new groups assimilate to the society and eventually join with the 'fray'. A recent phenomena were the Russian Jews who came en masse to the United States in the early 1990s immediately after the collapse of the USSR; the Russian Jewish community (we call them Ashkenazim) were very poor, most of them were escaping Russian pogroms, came in with basic positions in industry. And now look at them? They're wealthy , the first generation did menial labors, but their children are now working as engineers, physicians, bankers, nurses, teachers , you name you you got it.

Its always a paradigm of "us" vs "them" , with that paradigm of dichotomy diluting and disappearing as new groups eventually assimilate into the host society. The key word here is 'assimilation', of course there are some groups who do not assimilate and that becomes an issue.

 

[Azizam]

I think that's an issue that will always be present in any society, @Azizam . In my analysis of US society's views towards immigrants, the established groups always held negative views of new immigrants; this was the case when the WASP (white anglo-saxon protestants) resented the arrival of immigrants from Germany, or the Catholics from Italy, Spain, the Orthodox from Greece and Russia. Eventually the new groups assimilate to the society and eventually join with the 'fray'. A recent phenomena were the Russian Jews who came en masse to the United States in the early 1990s immediately after the collapse of the USSR; the Russian Jewish community (we call them Ashkenazim) were very poor, most of them were escaping Russian pogroms, came in with basic positions in industry. And now look at them? They're wealthy , the first generation did menial labors, but their children are now working as engineers, physicians, bankers, nurses, teachers , you name you you got it.

Its always a paradigm of "us" vs "them" , with that paradigm of dichotomy diluting and disappearing as new groups eventually assimilate into the host society. The key word here is 'assimilation', of course there are some groups who do not assimilate and that becomes an issue.

Don't you think those negative views were created due to a sense of superiority over oneself and the fear that the established group may lose their position due to the flood of new immigrants? I think the former occurs when a low skilled unqualified workforce enters the state and the latter is created due to the arrival of highly skilled immigrants. Cure for the former is to bridge the gap between developed and developing world. As for assimilation, that is why mentioned in my previous post that standards of living should also be improved along with wealth. And I also think that with development, it will eliminate the need for large scale immigration into the developed world due to the opportunities that are available in one's country of birth.

I think totally open borders will not be possibility for a long time to come and it is closely linked with space exploration and colonisation however with the shortening the gap between developed and developing world, some sort of free migration can be achieved but again it depends on the performance and cultural practices of developing world.

 

[AndrewJin]

@Nihonjin1051 Bro, u are optimistic as ever, I appreciate your comments. However, to reveal truth is better for a country, of course, for some individuals, truth would be poignant. I do enjoy @mike2000 is back 's comments to some extent, although reading his comments sometimes makes me uncomfortable.

Do not polish Indians, please They will believe it.

Besides, a majority of the population is kept ignorant and under dire filthy conditions -- ignorant of even their own conditions. That's the only way to sustain the elitist dictatorship over the mass population who should have already risen up and brought down the inefficient and corrupt regime long before. But, to be able to do so, they first need to know about it. So long as they are kept ignorant, the system is safe.

One of the Indians above talks about the Chinese patent system, which is an integral part of the world's leading patent institution. Hence the Indian way of doing science: Just pull out some numbers from the rear end and hope that no body will come out and scientifically trash it. The NPI findings, by the way, tell that, the science produced annually by CASS is much more than the one produced in entire India.

Poignant as ever. I never understand why every each time they are confronted with such issue, their excuses are as usual, quota system, Congress, etc. How about their social structure, their own way of thinking, their own behaviour ? When there is even a tiny achievement, then thanks to Modiji.

 

[Shotgunner51]

@Bussard Ramjet Dear sir, please spend some time for your own country if u are really Indian, worry a little bit less for China. Just check how many Indians scientists in NASA and silicon valley. And check how many top-notch American Chinese scientists and technicians have been home, like in Thousand Talents Project.
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/海外高层次人才引进计划
View attachment 233493

I do accept to some extent it is a lose for China, but overseas Chinese also make huge contributions to their motherland, thanks to their knowledge brought from abroad. And if u do speak Chinese(u said u would learn), just check how many technicians in CRRC(CSR&CNR) are educated overseas. I have told @Echo_419 about the structure of railway sciences research in China, If Bussy can spend a little time checking where some of the leading scientists in China's railway sector are educated, u may change your mind a little.
https://defence.pk/threads/chinese-hsr-news-and-information：original-translations.363685/page-41
Then Check this one, do you know how many scientists and technicians of this institute are educated overseas?
Beijing Genomics Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of my mother's classmate, who once worked for FDA's toxicology institute, he was recruited by Fudan University under the scheme of Thousand Talents. He is one of the most renowned scientist in genomics. As for me, studying in a top10 university in China, almost all my professors received their higher education in US.

All in all, China loses a lot, but China gains most. U lose some average, let them receive training in US btw. You also get the best returned, if you are the best, you will be targeted and called back. Due to the contribution of returned talents, China spends far less time in almost every sector. American probably needs to spend 10 million dollars to cultivate a top Chinese scientist in their research centres, ultimately, for China?

@Bussard Ramjet What's your opinion on your compatriots' comments about quota system? I have read too many those kind of identical comments about quota system, in literally any comparison-related thread.


Country rankings | Nature Publishing Index Asia-Pacific | Nature Publishing Group
Current Index date range: 2014-06-30 ~ 2015-06-29
These rankings are based on the number1 of papers that were published within the last 12 months from institutions located in the countries listed below. These rankings only include papers that were published as Articles, Letters and Brief Communications, or Reviews in Nature and/or Nature monthly research journals.
View attachment 233499

It seems that merely a Chinese university can do better than an entire country.
@Edison Chen @terranMarine @TaiShang @Shotgunner51@cirr @zeronet @Speeder 2 @Chinese-Dragon

View attachment 233501

Institution outputs | Nature Index
View attachment 233545

Impressive Andrew!
Thought you only dig in railway/HSR agenda.
I am not much into this field education/R&D, nice post to read!

 

[AndrewJin]

Impressive Andrew!
Thought you only dig in railway/HSR agenda.
I am not much into this field education/R&D, nice post to read!

@Shotgunner51 Bro, I am just a railway fan, that's not how i make a living.
I have just watched a documentary about Beijing Genomics Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I am deeply impressed by so many Chinese scientists who have received best higher education in US and come back home. @Bussard Ramjet
English from 46‘50’‘ @Bussard Ramjet

BGI (Chinese: 华大基因), known as the Beijing Genomics Institute prior to 2008, is one of the world's premier genome sequencing centers, headquartered in Shenzhen, Guangdong province, China.

Key achievements

• First to de novo sequence and assemble mammalian and human genomes with short-read sequencing (so-called "next generation sequencing")
• Sequenced the first ancient human’s genome
• Sequenced the first diploid genome of an Asian individual, as part of the Yan Huang project
• Initiated building a sequence map of the human pan-genome, estimated to contain 19-40 million bases not in the human reference genome
• Contributed 10% of sequence information for the International HapMap Project
• BGI's first project was contributing 1% of the Human Genome Project’s reference genome and was the only institute in the developing world to contribute
• Produced proof-of-principle study for sequencing the microbiome of the human digestive system, an estimated 150 times larger than the human genome
• Key sequencing center in the 1000 Genomes Project
• First Chinese institution to sequence the Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) virus, just hours after the first sequencing of the virus by Canadians
• Key player in the analysis of the 2011 E. coli O104:H4 outbreak
• Sequenced 40 domesticated and wild silkworms, identifying 354 genes likely important in domestication.[25]
• Sequenced the first giant panda genome,[15] equal in size to the human genome, in less than 8 months[26] Sequencing revealed that the giant panda, Ailuropoda melanoleuca, has a frameshift mutation in a gene involved in sensing savory flavors, T1R1. The mutation might be the genetic reason why the panda prefers bamboo over meat. However, the panda also lacks genes expected for bamboo digestion, so its microbiome might play a key role in metabolizing its main source of food.
• Key player in the Sino-British Chicken Genome Project
• As of 2010, plant genomes sequenced include rice, cucumber, soybean, and Sorghum. Animal genomes sequenced include silkworm, honey bee, water flea, lizard, and giant panda. An additional 40 animal and plant species and over 1000 bacteria had also been sequenced.
• Nature in 2010 ranked BGI Shenzhen as the fourth among the ten top institutions in China with all the others being universities and the Chinese Academy of Sciences. The ranking was based on articles in Nature research journals. There were similar results for other tops journals.
• In 2014, BGI was reported to be producing 500 cloned pigs a year to test new medicines.

Nature index of Asia-Pacific
1 May 2014 - 30 April 2015

 

[Keel]

Sir, in Japan there is one Indian political scientist whom we venerate as a Kami spirit , and have enshrined for time everlasting in the pantheon of Japanese heros. His name is His Honor Radhabinod Pal, whom the Japanese Military and the Japanese History shall forever judge a man of great moral virtue and chaste purity.


He is forever adored, and venerated in Japan. Countless generations of Japanese shall forever associate THE REPUBLIC OF INDIA with the Memory of His Honor Judge Radhabinod Pal.

The shame of India and the human race

 

[AndrewJin]

The shame of India and the human race

German chancellor prays to Jewish victims.
Japanese prays to militarism advocate.

He was the only South Asian person appointed to the International Military Tribunal for the Far East's trials of Japanese war crimes committed during the second World War.[1] Among all the judges of the tribunal, he was the only one who submitted a judgment which insisted all defendants were not guilty. The Yasukuni Shrine and the Kyoto Ryozen Gokoku Shrine have monuments specially dedicated to Judge Pal.

@Nihonjin1051 Pls never bring in irrelevant off-topic comment in a science/tech-related thread. That's not what a wise diplomat will do.

 

[Aepsilons]

Don't you think those negative views were created due to a sense of superiority over oneself and the fear that the established group may lose their position due to the flood of new immigrants?

Hi @Azizam,


What’s interesting to note that as per the research conducted by Murray and Marx (2013), there were an estimated 214 million people living outside of their country of nationality – a substantial rise from 150 million people in 2000. This represents over just 3% of the world’s population and numbers are growing exponentially. Its even estimated that migrants include individuals who have voluntarily left their homes in search of new opportunities, as well as approximately 44 million individuals who have been forcibly displaced due to persecution in their native countries (that is, asylum seekers and refugees).

Human migration is clearly occurring at unprecedented rates and “immigration, cultural diversity and integration” are among the most central challenges for modern societies. In the United States and other parts of the world, authorized and unauthorized immigration patterns have been highly politicized with widespread public discourse on whether to encourage or restrain human movement and for whom. Its interesting that even in the Untied States, a nation which is composed of immigrants or people who had immigration ancestors, --- the attitude towards immigration tend to vacillate over time, with several factors influencing public attitudes towards immigration, including both economic and non-economic factors.

I think its important to note that some of the fears of this so called established group is based on perceived realistic and symbolic threats. For example, some realistic threats include the challenges to welfare of the majority group. For example, during times of economic hardship, immigrants may be perceived as a threat to scarce resources (e.g, jobs, welfare, healthcare benefits) and thus they are categorized (unfairly at that) as a realistic threat to the host community members’ employment opportunities and even welfare. This is in line with demographic factors that have also been linked with prejudicial attitudes ergo, educational level (there is association of lower educational attainment and higher prejudicial attitudes) and employment characteristics (eg, unemployed , unskilled, and low-skilled manual labors report greater prejudicial attitudes). Symbolic threats represents challenges to the morals, values and identity of the majority community. Issues such as perceived value differences due to culture, or religion are considered symbolic threats and are perceived as threatening to the social fabric of the host community.


These are definitely interesting factors and themes to review/ analyze/ study.


What’s your opinion?


Best,
@Nihonjin1051



Reference:

Murray, K. E., & Marx, D. M. (2013). Attitudes toward unauthorized immigrants, authorized immigrants, and refugees. Cultural Diversity And Ethnic Minority Psychology, 19(3), 332-341. doi:10.1037/a0030812

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

I know your stance,Bussard, I just thought it was fun rubbing something on your nose. Sorry if you don't like it

in absolute numbers is still BIGGER than India

Again why should a country called a loser when it can hold onto more than 80% of its brainpower??? I am afraid absolute number doesn‘t matter in this case，percentage does. In fact I would make a strong point arguing 17% is a healthy percentage witch suggesting a degree of openness and interchange，maybe even better than Japan’s 1.2% as it could indicate a closed-up industrial model and academic circle. Near 50%? definitely not healthy and a brain drain through and through.

I have been much more forth right about any Indian condition.

No you don‘t. The No.1 "Indian condition" is quite obviously overpopulation, yet I saw you always advocating bigger population equals bigger market and economy strength. Frankly I find that logic very strange coming from an Indian guy. Do you even acknowledge that India has a underlying water shortage problem due to overpopulation which could be full blown into a humanitarian crisis as early as 2025? Do you know India is draining groundwater at an unsustainable level which may drag India into war with neighbors just for water in the future? If this sounds new to you then I think you really don‘t care much about India and probably should get China’s problems out of your head for a moment, like @AndrewJin said

in china the patent filing system is so loose that basically all one has to do is find any patent from anyother part of the world that hasn't yet been filed within China and bang - go file it. It is an absolute joke. Besides China not respecting ANY patents there are numerous cases where even the documents filed had the original author's photocopies from abroad! So let's not talk about China and IP/patents etc ok.

Where on earth did you hear that??China's patent filing system has improved and perfected a great deal from 1999 onward and it’s already highly integrated with global IP system with a very strict filtering/examination method in place, maybe you can say its still not on par with the US quality wise but I am afraid there‘s no big gap. It has quite the same standard with pretty much all the other countries out there.

The shame of India and the human race

Long time no see buddy Greece made a lot of headlines lately, wonder how you doing..

 

[Beidou2020]

The shame of India and the human race

Indians breed like crazy and over populate the world and Indians use up the world resources and contribute nothing to the world. IMO those resources are wasted by giving it to unproductive Indians. They should be given to West and East Asians that can put it to good use.

Indian cities are more polluted than Chinese cities but India has no industry to speak of. That show what a truly backward country India really is.
India is a grossly overpopulated, disease-filled country. You must be cursed to be born in India and pigeonholed into caste systems from the time you are born and have the world's most corrupt regime ruling over you that can't give its population basic sanitation and education.

It's a truly repulsive and disgusting regime.
Ugh!

 

[AndrewJin]

Indians breed like crazy but they use up the world resources and contribute nothing to the world. IMO those resources are wasted by giving it to Indians. They should be given to West and East Asians that can put it to good use.
Indian cities are more polluted than Chinese cities but India has no industry to speak of.

Bro, please stick to the topic of this thread. Your words will attract trolls.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Bro, please stick to the topic of this thread. Your words will attract trolls.

It should be your responsibility to bash people who say things like "Indian breed like ..."

Chinese members like yourself don't do any justice when you either stay neutral or support idiots like this guy.

 

[AndrewJin]

It should be your responsibility to bash people who say things like "Indian breed like ..."

Chinese members like yourself don't do any justice when you either stay neutral or support idiots like this guy.

I think u never care about India?