BrahMos test-flown from Su-30 MKI fighter jet; world will envy IAF, says BrahMos Aerospace MD

[Stephen Cohen]

My personal choise for ground attack was SU-24/25, with license build by HAL instead of Jaguar and MIG-27/23

Jaguar is far better than SU 25 which is a SLOW plane -- It cant even defend itself

Look at Jaguar ; we have upgraded it so much - it carries ASRAAM and will soon have AESA

 

[zebra7]

I m agreeing with u,but nothing come close to su34s effective range. We can't perform any offensive strike on Chinese mainland with rafale (because of poor range,cant fly back to Indian based from Chinese mainland. At the most rafale can do some operations in Tibet's.)

My guess is IAF would fight a defensive war, with the China, to take the full advantage of natural boundary aka Himalaya.
For the chinese, they have very less Air Strips in the Tibet, and from that too, they have to sacrifice, the weapon load due to high altitude take off. Its foolish to assume, attacking Chinese mainland outside Tibet with Su-34, when Chinese have superior Air Defense system, and I don't see any gain w.r.t to the risk involved. For such operation, long range Cruise Missile should be involved.

Jaguar is far better than SU 25 which is a SLOW plane -- It cant even defend itself

Look at Jaguar ; we have upgraded it so much - it carries ASRAAM and will soon have AESA

Then you should look at the survivability of the SU-24 in Afghan war, and the work load it performed in the Syria. The Russia deployed 4 Su-24 M2D in Syria, becomes the work horse and they deliver the hell destruction against the ISIS. You should look at the load carying capability of the this bird, and the low flying capability at high speed, and the precision guided ammunition with its NAV Attack. Though developed before MIG-27 and MIG-23, it is still giving its service to various Airforce in the world.

ASRAAM are added to its upper wing, that tells you the limit of the number of weapon point on its wings. And no AESA is required for the dedicated Ground attack fighter plane. Jaguar is a good plane, but it was designed as the LIFT trainer. After IAF was convinced to scrap the Marut-2, they went for the Jaguar-- but did you realized how much HAL have to work to retify its landing gear problem, and it was in IAF for 8 years with the faulty navigation system, till HAL rectifies it. The present Jaguar Darin 3 is the most upgraded version, but similarly SU-24 could be tailored for the IAF need, with the Western equipment making it SU-24 MKI.

Difference between SU-24 and SU-34 is that SU-24 could drop dump bomb with accuracy, and SU-34 will deliver it from the strandoff distance -- difference of time, era and technology.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

My guess is IAF would fight a defensive war, with the China, to take the full advantage of natural boundary aka Himalaya.
For the chinese, they have very less Air Strips in the Tibet, and from that too, they have to sacrifice, the weapon load due to high altitude take off. Its foolish to assume, attacking Chinese mainland outside Tibet with Su-34, when Chinese have superior Air Defense system, and I don't see any gain w.r.t to the risk involved. For such operation, long range Cruise Missile should be involved.



Then you should look at the survivability of the SU-24 in Afghan war, and the work load it performed in the Syria. The Russia deployed 4 Su-24 M2D in Syria, becomes the work horse and they deliver the hell destruction against the ISIS. You should look at the load carying capability of the this bird, and the low flying capability at high speed, and the precision guided ammunition with its NAV Attack. Though developed before MIG-27 and MIG-23, it is still giving its service to various Airforce in the world.

ASRAAM are added to its upper wing, that tells you the limit of the number of weapon point on its wings. And no AESA is required for the dedicated Ground attack fighter plane. Jaguar is a good plane, but it was designed as the LIFT trainer. After IAF was convinced to scrap the Marut-2, they went for the Jaguar-- but did you realized how much HAL have to work to retify its landing gear problem, and it was in IAF for 8 years with the faulty navigation system, till HAL rectifies it. The present Jaguar Darin 3 is the most upgraded version, but similarly SU-24 could be tailored for the IAF need, with the Western equipment making it SU-24 MKI.

Difference between SU-24 and SU-34 is that SU-24 could drop dump bomb with accuracy, and SU-34 will deliver it from the strandoff distance -- difference of time, era and technology.

You mean to say SPEED does nt matter --supersonics are of no use or value

This SU 25 being better is a false theory -- we should not accept everything that Prasun sir says

IAF people must have evaluated SU 25 in the Eighties

Where was Prasun in the Eighties -- Ask him

And India did nt have the Technical capabilites to upgrade the SU 25 in the eighties

Darin 2 was carried out after 2001 AD

Russia had a simple philosophy

If One plane does nt suit you take another

That is why we went for Mig 23 and then later for Mig 27

 

[zebra7]

You mean to say SPEED does nt matter --supersonics are of no use or value

This SU 25 being better is a false theory -- we should not accept everything that Prasun sir says

IAF people must have evaluated SU 25 in the Eighties

Where was Prasun in the Eighties -- Ask him

And India did nt have the Technical capabilites to upgrade the SU 25 in the eighties

Darin 2 was carried out after 2001 AD

Russia had a simple philosophy

If One plane does nt suit you take another

That is why we went for Mig 23 and then later for Mig 27

To understand it, we have to look at the mentality of the IAF. IAF was highly impressed with the performance of the punny GNAT, which itself was developed as the Trainer. HAL developed Marut shows good promise and survivabilty, which took part in the indo-pak war, and came up with no loss in war. The idea of IAF was the high speed around mach 1 in low altitude, for long range, but India fails to secure the engine availability needed for the Marut. We attempted our last effort, with the Egypt, which was developing its indegenous engine, and even provide Marut Airframe for supersonic testing, but when egypt dumped the project, it was clear that the Marut will remain under power. India, should go for Marut-2 and upgraded avtaar, but at that time, the conditions, economy was not in favour of India.

If you think speed is everything, than why the modern aircraft is now 1.6 mach max rather than 2.5, it is because the modern SAMs and A2A missile have become smart, and their high speed could not be challenged with the high speed of the aircraft rather the counter measures like Jammers.

Jaguar power depends on its high speed and low flying ability and airdefence avoidance capability, but after the event of the survellance equipments like 3D radars and aerial AWAACs, Jaguar, will find it difficult to breach the enemy Air defence to do the deep strike operation. Therefore, planes like Rafale is needed to survive the enemy air defence, and due to the limit of the size and load carrying capability of the Jaguar, their is a limit, to get it upgraded. Also due to the technological advancements such as Combat Drones, GPS assisted Long range Glide bombs such as Spice 250, and Cruise Missiles, their is no need to risk the Jaguar, on a low altitude, high risk, maneuvor over the enemy airspace to drop its munition on the target.

MIG-27, and MIG-23 was the fine bird, and one of the great design of its time, but the problem of its engine, inherited for decades and OEM fails to rectify it.

My question is when we took MIG-27 for ground attack, then why inducted Jaguar, or When for Air superiority took MIG-23, then why MIG-29, and latter on when MIG-29 was found inferior jumps to Mirrage 2000, thus increase the training and infra structure cost. IAF was in favour of Mirrage 2000 as much as 250 with licence build by HAL itself, but with unknow reason the Congress govt took the Russian inventory of MIG-21, MIG-25, Mig-23, MIG-27, MIG-29

 

[Stephen Cohen]

To understand it, we have to look at the mentality of the IAF. IAF was highly impressed with the performance of the punny GNAT, which itself was developed as the Trainer. HAL developed Marut shows good promise and survivabilty, which took part in the indo-pak war, and came up with no loss in war. The idea of IAF was the high speed around mach 1 in low altitude, for long range, but India fails to secure the engine availability needed for the Marut. We attempted our last effort, with the Egypt, which was developing its indegenous engine, and even provide Marut Airframe for supersonic testing, but when egypt dumped the project, it was clear that the Marut will remain under power. India, should go for Marut-2 and upgraded avtaar, but at that time, the conditions, economy was not in favour of India.

If you think speed is everything, than why the modern aircraft is now 1.6 mach max rather than 2.5, it is because the modern SAMs and A2A missile have become smart, and their high speed could not be challenged with the high speed of the aircraft rather the counter measures like Jammers.

Jaguar power depends on its high speed and low flying ability and airdefence avoidance capability, but after the event of the survellance equipments like 3D radars and aerial AWAACs, Jaguar, will find it difficult to breach the enemy Air defence to do the deep strike operation. Therefore, planes like Rafale is needed to survive the enemy air defence, and due to the limit of the size and load carrying capability of the Jaguar, their is a limit, to get it upgraded. Also due to the technological advancements such as Combat Drones, GPS assisted Long range Glide bombs such as Spice 250, and Cruise Missiles, their is no need to risk the Jaguar, on a low altitude, high risk, maneuvor over the enemy airspace to drop its munition on the target.

MIG-27, and MIG-23 was the fine bird, and one of the great design of its time, but the problem of its engine, inherited for decades and OEM fails to rectify it.

I agree with you here

My only contention is that SU 25 being better than Jaguar is a flase theory of Prasun Sengupta

Anyway forget it

Mig 23 has been retired ; Mig 27 will be out by 2020

Jaguar will serve till 2035 at least

 

[SpArK]

 

[Oldman1]

How many can it carry?

 

[GURU DUTT]

Hi ; I wanted to Know ; since we would be buying SCALP with RAFALE

Now suppose a Target say Enemy radar complex and SAM sites have to be taken out

So Which Missile Should be fired FIRST

Scalp or Brahmos

I think that since Scalp is subsonic -- First fire the Scalp

And when enemy is taking counter measures Release the Brahmos which will SLAM into the target at super sonic speed

Time on Target can be synchronised

@MilSpec @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @randomradio
@GURU DUTT @punit @topgun047 @#hydra#
@Nilgiri


Could you PLEASE answer this query --Which Missile should be fired FIRST for taking out a Target -- SCALP or BRAHMOS

it depends upon the cost and tactical and strategik value of the target and most important what is the price diffrence

 

[nik22]

How many can it carry?

1 Brahmos

 

[#hydra#]

My guess is IAF would fight a defensive war, with the China, to take the full advantage of natural boundary aka Himalaya.
For the chinese, they have very less Air Strips in the Tibet, and from that too, they have to sacrifice, the weapon load due to high altitude take off. Its foolish to assume, attacking Chinese mainland outside Tibet with Su-34, when Chinese have superior Air Defense system, and I don't see any gain w.r.t to the risk involved. For such operation, long range Cruise Missile should be involved.



Then you should look at the survivability of the SU-24 in Afghan war, and the work load it performed in the Syria. The Russia deployed 4 Su-24 M2D in Syria, becomes the work horse and they deliver the hell destruction against the ISIS. You should look at the load carying capability of the this bird, and the low flying capability at high speed, and the precision guided ammunition with its NAV Attack. Though developed before MIG-27 and MIG-23, it is still giving its service to various Airforce in the world.

ASRAAM are added to its upper wing, that tells you the limit of the number of weapon point on its wings. And no AESA is required for the dedicated Ground attack fighter plane. Jaguar is a good plane, but it was designed as the LIFT trainer. After IAF was convinced to scrap the Marut-2, they went for the Jaguar-- but did you realized how much HAL have to work to retify its landing gear problem, and it was in IAF for 8 years with the faulty navigation system, till HAL rectifies it. The present Jaguar Darin 3 is the most upgraded version, but similarly SU-24 could be tailored for the IAF need, with the Western equipment making it SU-24 MKI.

Difference between SU-24 and SU-34 is that SU-24 could drop dump bomb with accuracy, and SU-34 will deliver it from the strandoff distance -- difference of time, era and technology.

Attack is the best way of defence,i think IAF no longer supports a defensive game against Chinese.We don't wants Nehru's mistake to repeat again. And all these high tech SAMs can be taken out in the first few days and once achieved this ....
At present we don't have a long range cruise missiles like tomahawk,agm129 or Klub to attack deep in to Chinese mainland.
Jags are not as survivable as su24,its a fact. But we should not compare different category planes. 24 us compatible with US made A10s.
Regarding su 25,yeah I do agree that it's a wonderful plane with hell lot if room for upgrading nd for gadgets. But we can't change the past now. Jags being a Western design it has its own advantages when it comes to quality of engine nd precision attack. Heard that it can literally fly just above sand san dune with out taking care of sands being sucked in to its engine,i think su 25 can't do that. Recent exercise also show jaguars precision attack capabilities with dumb bombs,its even better than su30.
@zebra7 @Stephen Cohen

 

[zebra7]

How many can it carry?

Presently 1 in the centerline pylon of the MKI owing to its weight 2500 kg, but with Super Sukhoi upgrade, the airframe would be strengthened, to arm 3 Brahmos NG at a time, one in its centerline, and two on both its wings. Brahmos Aerospace is working on its upgraded version aka Brahmos NG, which would be smaller, lighter, and would have the same Range and could be armed with virtually all fighter planes in Indian Inventory but specially with MIG-29 UPG.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Presently 1 in the centerline pylon of the MKI owing to its weight 2500 kg, but with Super Sukhoi upgrade, the airframe would be strengthened, to arm 3 Brahmos NG at a time, one in its centerline, and two on both its wings. Brahmos Aerospace is working on its upgraded version aka Brahmos NG, which would be smaller, lighter, and would have the same Range and could be armed with virtually all fighter planes in Indian Inventory but specially with MIG-29 UPG.

thats right bharmos in its current for is too big abd bulky to have any real impact we should put more efforts to make it at least a under 1500Kg with same capabillities and try to have it on all our existing fighter platforms even like LCA

 

[Stephen Cohen]

thats right bharmos in its current for is too big abd bulky to have any real impact we should put more efforts to make it at least a under 1500Kg with same capabillities and try to have it on all our existing fighter platforms even like LCA

That is possible only with a new Missile ie Brahmos Mini or NG

 

[GURU DUTT]

That is possible only with a new Missile ie Brahmos Mini or NG

then we should start working on it with even more urgency cause China will treat us at par only when it knows the costs it has to pay if it keeps its offensive approach towards us

 

[Stephen Cohen]

then we should start working on it with even more urgency cause China will treat us at par only when it knows the costs it has to pay if it keeps its offensive approach towards us

Technical problems -- that will take time to resolve ; for making a new missile

However this current missile is also deadly

And they are just " saying " 40 Planes will be modified
for carrying it ; In reality more will be modified