Betrayed, Arabized

[SQ8]

I see the tug of war on between those with Arabphobia and those with Arab fetish is on.
Yet no one has come up with a single concrete definition of what is their religious identity.
Are they Muslims due to an Arabian prophet of god.. or simply a Prophet of god.
How far one must go to "condemn" Arabic influence in our nation ?
Where the boundaries for denouncing cultural invasion end and those for critique of the Prophet and texts are seemingly crossed...

I dont want to partake in this discussion anymore.
But leave with this..
I have had the good fortune of being able to read the Quran and memorize a part of it in Arabic.
I have had no Najdi ,Arbi or Persian teacher sitting on my head making me do this.
I was interested in exploring my religion, I read Tafseer's.. Books on Hadiath and those on the Prophet's life.
And I still would like to recite my prayers in Arabic, read the Quran in Arabic.. since No other language gives me the satisfaction of it. I read an urdu translation of it.. My urdu is not arbized or full of arabic prose.
My english isnt arbized or full of "halal" prose.

I dont consider myself or My prophet an Arab in front of god.
I do not consider the Quran an Arabic text but rather the word of god.. and to that end I will recite it in my prayers in Arabic as did My prophet 1500 years ago. His life was the epitome of all that was taught in the Quran and not Arabian rituals...
I will still read the Quran verse by verse in Arabic.. and its translation in Urdu,French,English or Japanese right next to it.
So that I know that this is what was revealed as it was some 1500 years ago and here is what it means in a language I understand.
Ill still listen to Axel Rose, Hendrix or MJ on the drive home.. and will still go to my room to offer prayers after I arrive.

I do still consider the illegitimate rulers planted by Lawrence of Arabia as one of the greatest threats not only to my nation's people and their religious identity.. but to the very reason I look at a Muslim from Indonesia and feel a bond.
but I am not forced by them to want to understand the Quran.. or Learn more about Arabic grammar and literature so that I may better understand the Quran.. I do not wish to wear an Arabic dress.. nor wish for all Arabs to love me.
My passion for the cities of Makkah and Medina does not translate to a Passion of Riyadh or Amman..
And I find it ridiculous that some people would suggest so.
I will however share a similar sense of bond as I would with an Arabian Muslim as I would one from Russia.
I am not an Arab.. I am a Pakistani and I am Muslim.. I see no confusion for me in defining that identity..because I bothered to search for it.. and not have column writers, talk show hosts.. or televangelists define it for me.

 

[President Camacho]

Santro, everything you said perfectly makes sense. Simply because each of your statements starts with "I".

It is not right just because you read Quran in Arabic, but it is right because your reading Quran in Arabic is your own choice, which is only possible when you do have choices.

I have had no Najdi ,Arbi or Persian teacher sitting on my head making me do this.

^^ I hope that is true with everyone there, esp those living in far away places.

 

[Subramanian]

I asked you a question in my previous post- Now tell me the Afghanis that made inroads into Hindustan you believed were Just Afghanis?- Arabi Afghanis?- or Islamic Afghanis?- how do you mutilate this correlation of Arab=Islam on hindustan-



can you explain indian history?-
the things you relate to indian history- tamils call it tamil history- punjabis the punjabi history- malus call it malayalam history- as far as we know- Indian history started after 47- before india never existed-

It is not like that,these states were formed much later.If we were all so different,we would all be breaking apart now.

There is obviously not much connect between the far ends of the country but that is natural.

Even today we have so many nation trotters like Punjabi Lorrymen or Tamil Construction workers in Delhi,who even being uneducated can survive easily in extremely opposite cultures.

 

[SQ8]

Santro, everything you said perfectly makes sense. Simply because each of your statements starts with "I".

It is not right just because you read Quran in Arabic, but it is right because your reading Quran in Arabic is your own choice, which is only possible when you do have choices.



^^ I hope that is true with everyone there, esp those living in far away places.

Senor.. as a Muslim I also have an obligation to assist humanity where needed..
As I have a choice to protest against israel.. I can raise my voice against the mismanagement of seminaries..
I can prevent forced marriage or forced religion.. especially when it is distorted and destructive.
But to blame religion or religious thought for its use in an incorrect form solely because I could not be bothered to do anything about it is no way to justify my position.
If I choose something for myself.. and the other cannot.. then I have not just a religious obligation but a Human obligation to do whatever that is possible due to my abilities to allow the other person to have a legitimate choice.
I choose to add the term legitimate.. since if only freedom of choice was the criteria for progression and enlightenment.. then even the choice to use cocaine.. to commit crime.. is a choice.
Shall I simply allow the man to make a choice for the sake of making a choice?
Or do I not have the right to my judgement as I see it or as any collective judgement sees it on what Choice is valid on his/her part?

 

[SQ8]

As moderator, you have the power to close this thread, so why dont you? This is another FAILED attempt made by muse to get Pakistanis to turn away from Islam and turn towards hindutiva. Nothing else. He has failed miserable again, because only indians are thanking his posts, NEVER PAKISTANIS.

With great power comes great responisibilty

I find this thread as a way for people to at least start thinking about who they are.. and whether the status quo is all that they wish to maintain.
To what they choose.. and become is each to his own intellect and thinking.
I only pray they choose what is best for them and not the best as they see it.

 

[Sinnerman108]

With great power comes great responisibilty

I find this thread as a way for people to at least start thinking about who they are.. and whether the status quo is all that they wish to maintain.
To what they choose.. and become is each to his own intellect and thinking.
I only pray they choose what is best for them and not the best as they see it.

Santro,
Agreed, but some thing has to be said about the level of personal involvement by some members.
We can see a trend develop here, on the nature of threads and the content of it.
I guess you'd do some thing about the trend.

 

[SQ8]

Santro,
Agreed, but some thing has to be said about the level of personal involvement by some members.
We can see a trend develop here, on the nature of threads and the content of it.
I guess you'd do some thing about the trend.

They are Human after all Habibi.. are they not??
Their lives are effected... whether directly or indirectly via BBC and CNN..
By columns and documentaries..
each of these leaves a mark on the thoughts that circulate...and personal feelings on subjects dear will always come out.
but one must be able to differentiate on where the discussion is for the sake of constructive discourse..
or has deteriorated into arguing for the sake of arguing.

Just as listening to the Doha debates on BBC can be enlightening and enjoyable..
Just as watching the detestable talk shows on our local TV channels can be an eyesore and a headache.

 

[President Camacho]

Or do I not have the right to my judgement as I see it or as any collective judgement sees it on what Choice is valid on his/her part?

Everything is fine, but what about the one who is ignorant to what you feel is right? It may even be possible that you may be making a choice for that person thinking you are making the right/legitimate choice, while the other person may understand his situation in a better way than you do, and may not be ready for the version of your choice.

In such scenario, even in the right mind, equipped with the right heart, you may end up making a wrong choice for someone else. Likelihood may be extreme or even bleak, but not entirely impossible. Your example of the cocaine addict gives an idea that in such cases you may have to force your choice on the other.

So is it not possible that out of a 100 persons you may have forced your choices upon, at least one person may have been 'more right' or legitimate than you were? As far as mere possibility, and not probability, goes, you may even end up making wrong choices for all the 100 as well.



Since it appears like a stand alone post, I will provide some specificity to make it appear more relevant to the topic of the thread:

The choice of reading the Quran in Arabic is the right one - That is your position. You feel it is a legitimate choice to read the Quran in Arabic - for whatever reasons. Thus it is not wrong if this legitimate choice is forced upon a group of people, for their own good.

But this situation is much more complex than the situation of a cocaine addict. On what basis, (and how specific that basis would be) can we decide what is the legitimate choice in such complex situations? Especially when there is no sin taking place (for ex: choice of consuming cocaine is giving in to addiction, and say, suicide - a personal choice, is a sin anyway) and when there's no contradictions with any texts?

There has to be a distinction between right and wrong. How do we go on to make that distinction in such complex situations, and what do we refer to for that?

 

[53fd]

I also know for a fact that Salafis don't even consider Shias as Muslims, even though Shias fulfill all religious obligations to be called one. I hope everyone remembers this verse from the Quran:

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah, and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it."

Let go off this Takfiri slanderous Salafi ideology that divides people, that claims only the Salafs are correct in their beliefs, & Barelvis/Shias are Mushrikeen.

 

[Ahmad]

I also know for a fact that Salafis don't even consider Shias as Muslims, even though Shias fulfill all religious obligations to be called one. I hope everyone remembers this verse from the Quran:

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah, and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it."

Let go off this Takfiri slanderous Salafi ideology that divides people, that claims only the Salafs are correct in their beliefs, & Barelvis/Shias are Mushrikeen.

You are right, these extremists are causing a huge number of problems for people, causing division as well as poisoning the minds of people especially the young ones.

 

[Developereo]

Pakistani's know exactly who they are, they are not Arab or Persian or indian, they are Pakistani - and are proud to be so. regarding influences there are many and make us what we are.

Well said.

I always find it amusing when our own pseudo-intellectuals parrot anti-Pakistan propaganda about Pakistan being a country in search of an identity. There is no confusion or identity crisis for most Pakistanis. There never has been.

Those who still "Don't Get It" would be well advised to book a few sessions with a psychatrist.

 

[r3alist]

As I said to Muse - be specific - merely condemning all 'Arabs and Arabian culture' is painting with a very broad brush and likely to lead nowhere. Protest intolerance, discrimination, inequality - not whether someone feels more pride in Mohammed Bin Qasim or Ghauri instead of Ranjit Singh.

you are always always the voice of reason, thank god you are here.

pakistan needs more like you, and less of muse and other extremists.

 

[Porus]

Maybe these things are not as much important compared to what you are being thought?-

Urdu is a very new language even in the land of Pakistan. Even Arabic has been in the land of Pakistan longer than Urdu has. Arab general Muhammad Bin Qasim brought the Holy Quran in its original Arabic language to the land of Pakistan in 710 CE. Urdu was formed in Uttar Pradesh, India during the Delhi Sultanate (1206–1527) and came to the land of Pakistan centuries later.

Whatever is taught n Pakistani Schools has been deliberately designed to create the hordes of confused and self-hating youth who will spend their whole lives searching for their true identity. These few hundred posts of utterly confused people corroborate my point.

Some are striving for the implementation of Arabic, some are fighting for the honour of Urdu ( which can be labelled as a semi-Islamic language compared to pure Islamic languages like Arabic or Persian, if all other “regional languages” are infidel), but no one seems to be interested in Pashto or Balochi or Sindhi which are quite old and rich in literature.

 

[SQ8]

Everything is fine, but what about the one who is ignorant to what you feel is right? It may even be possible that you may be making a choice for that person thinking you are making the right/legitimate choice, while the other person may understand his situation in a better way than you do, and may not be ready for the version of your choice.

In such scenario, even in the right mind, equipped with the right heart, you may end up making a wrong choice for someone else. Likelihood may be extreme or even bleak, but not entirely impossible. Your example of the cocaine addict gives an idea that in such cases you may have to force your choice on the other.

So is it not possible that out of a 100 persons you may have forced your choices upon, at least one person may have been 'more right' or legitimate than you were? As far as mere possibility, and not probability, goes, you may even end up making wrong choices for all the 100 as well.



Since it appears like a stand alone post, I will provide some specificity to make it appear more relevant to the topic of the thread:

The choice of reading the Quran in Arabic is the right one - That is your position. You feel it is a legitimate choice to read the Quran in Arabic - for whatever reasons. Thus it is not wrong if this legitimate choice is forced upon a group of people, for their own good.

But this situation is much more complex than the situation of a cocaine addict. On what basis, (and how specific that basis would be) can we decide what is the legitimate choice in such complex situations? Especially when there is no sin taking place (for ex: choice of consuming cocaine is giving in to addiction, and say, suicide - a personal choice, is a sin anyway) and when there's no contradictions with any texts?

There has to be a distinction between right and wrong. How do we go on to make that distinction in such complex situations, and what do we refer to for that?

Which is where I repeat the importance of the Prophet in Islam.
His life was the epitome of the Quran.. and that is mentioned in the Quran itself.
So when in doubt.. do as he would do.
By classifying him as an Arab when he made the choice to forgive his enemies one is being unjust... instead of considering his act humane.
If you can consider the act of the Prophet of god as that which is done by a human first and not that of an arab.. you can consider him reciting the Quran in its original form in Arabic as a Human requirement and not as a Arabic characteristic.

This is the whole reason why there has always been an emphasis on Quran and Sunnah(the life and acts of the prophet)..
On its own.. Quran in ANY form will not provide any answers..
The "wahabi Najdi's" which form the basis for the Arabophobia ironically promote an identical philosophy to what the Arabophobic ones do.
They ask you to only think of the Quran in their language .. and forget the rest.
Only do what is required.. the "essence" and leave the rest.

There is no compulsion in religion.. never will be.
However, just as you must know how to interpret diagrams of cyclic compounds.. to consider yourself an organic chemist..
there is a bare minimum requirement.. laid down by those who originally started the subject.. no?
In this case.. this isnt considered a man-made subject.. and (unless you are from the school of Wahabi/najdi ideologies).. the protagonist of the subject wasn't any ordinary man.

You have a choice on praying, on fasting.. on believing.
But if you must.. please follow a certain bare minimum pattern.. which has nothing to do with Arabs or Persians or the Masai..

 

[Ahmad]

Urdu is a very new language even in the land of Pakistan. Even Arabic has been in the land of Pakistan longer than Urdu has. Arab general Muhammad Bin Qasim brought the Holy Quran in its original Arabic language to the land of Pakistan in 710 CE. Urdu was formed in Uttar Pradesh, India during the Delhi Sultanate (1206–1527) and came to the land of Pakistan centuries later.

Go for arabic and confuse the whole nation to a breaking point, not to mention the issue of literacy that will leave eventhe literate illiterate as nobody will understand it. Stick with Urdo, if there is anything in Paksitan that connnect Pakistanis to each other is Urdo language.