Beating the Indian Navy without going broke

[randomradio]

That aircraft carrier would be a liability for IN in any war against Pakistan. If it comes anywhere near our territorial waters we will turn it into a nice artificial reef. That carrier will be the prime target for our special AACCB units (don't ask me what is that?) and don't give me your bull crap carrier strike package ..... that carrier will go down faster than anything in history of naval wars.

A carrier near territorial waters.

I doubt you know what territorial waters means.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Hi!
It really is very depressing to see the kind of mud that is tossed around in this forum from both the sides-- in most cases unnecessarily. Lets discuss this issue in a more civilized manner, shall we? Let me point it out at the very onset that India is planning to have 3 medium sized carriers in near-mid term future and not 4 as has been suggested in the original post. One must understand that India's naval strategy has moved way beyond Pakistan-centric. This can be gauged from none other than official white papers released by IN- for instance this one-
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites...ritime_Security_Strategy_Document_25Jan16.pdf

Indian Navy's thought process and strategy is way different from PN's and this reflected in the acquisition process of both the navies. Since, India happens to be much more transparent vis-a-vis Pakistan, it is easy to find Indian official documents pertaining to Naval strategy and acquisition plans. This helps in making educated guesses about the trajectory taken by IN as compared to PN. Before making assertions about each navy's capabilities, let me quickly review the military industrial infrastructure in reference to navy present in both the countries. This includes research institutes, public and private sector companies and academic institutions. India happens to be much more self sufficient in "Designing" and mass producing warships. India adopted a "top-down" approach in naval learning curve beginning from 1970s. This means the focus was to first acquire expertise in designing the right kind of steel alloys for warship construction. The metallurgical process developed shall be transferred to the pvt/public partner to mass produce the alloys required. I must point out that India has capability to "mass produce" DMR-249A steel that has tensile strength in the class of 610+MPa
https://www.scientific.net/MSF.710.149.pdf
https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/warship-grade-steel-made-by-sail/cid/268829
Pakistan has no analogues to this kind of steel. 610-class of steel alloys are needed to make aircraft carriers. Once, the basic ingredients were mastered, the navy went for sub-systems and started leveraging India's private sector for that. Big names like Tata, L&T have huge contribution to the SSBN program. In fact the hull was manufactured by L&T.
There exists a huge difference between the warship design capabilities as well. But that is another debate all together.
After having dealt with the difference in the research-production aspects of certain key components of shipbuilding I will touch upon operational aspects of both the navies.
Firstly I will start off with PN and also simultaneously draw parallels with IN. PN, unlike IN is more defensive in role and vision. This reflects in the kind of vessels they have and their configuration. Since PN's budget is very small compared to IN's allocation(which is almost as big as Pakistan's entire defence layout!), they have gone for big bang for their buck. They have installed/planning to install some decent sub sonic missiles on ships that would be typically be classified as corvettes in IN. Now, the thing is, whether people realize it or not, PN's surface fleet is really not any threat to IN. The real threat to IN is actually from the sub-surface arm of the PN. Since, IN is inducting Barak-8 and Barak-8ER for most of the combatant ships, it provides a decent umbrella cover out to 110kms! The canards provide decent low speed maneuverability in the end game. Barak-8 forms the part of Indian Navy's aegis like system centered around a huge naval APAR that provides unparallel situational awareness. PN has again no analogue to this sophisticated APAR or interceptors.
Pakistani subsonic cruise missiles does pose some threat to the IN, but the major challenge is not really the CM, it is the detection of that cruise missile which is a major challenge. IN CBGs for that very reason have decent "look-down" radars integrated with Ka-31 helicopters that form the AEWCS for the carrier battle group. Ka-31 can easily detect and track a CM from over 120kms! Now if lets say Ka-31 is flying some 300kms from the mother ship, it can warn the ship of any impending dangers from over 420kms! This distance is a very healthy window for CBG systems to react etc. We must not forget that IN's carriers are actually armed with Barak-8 for self defence!

 

[danger007]

Its not invincible. Battle plans exist for eventualities.

Haha good joke.. battle plan against USN ..you can do nothing against USN..

 

[Basel]

Your F-22Ps already have OTH radars. And the Type 054A isn't good enough. It's basically in a similar class as our early Talwar class frigates with inferior SSMs, but slightly better SAMs.

As I said, I would see some equivalence in China-Pak relations only when both countries are buying similar systems, not earlier generation systems. By the time you get the Type 054A, it will be an outdated ship.



Let's see maybe once you've actually tested it then.

You don't know things or you are lying because I have not seen OTH on F-22P during my visit of the ship, also Type-54A will not be the same as the first built one for PLAN as even PLAN have updated ones now.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Haha good joke.. battle plan against USN ..you can do nothing against USN..

We can go to great lengths to safeguard pakistan. Unimaginable lengths if required.

 

[randomradio]

You don't know things or you are lying because I have not seen OTH on F-22P during my visit of the ship, also Type-54A will not be the same as the first built one for PLAN as even PLAN have updated ones now.

My mistake, it doesn't. I was thinking of upgrades when I said that.

Anyway, the IN doesn't have anything to fear from the 054A.

 

[danger007]

We can go to great lengths to safeguard pakistan. Unimaginable lengths if required.

With what? Stop being delusional.. attacking USN CBG is beyond your capability..

 

[randomradio]

With what? Stop being delusional.. attacking USN CBG is beyond your capability..

Attacking any CBG, not just the USN.

In fact, a few other CBGs, including India's, have more advanced air defences than the USN does today.

 

[Thorough Pro]

I know what it means but you probably don't understand the difference between "close to" and "in"

Territorial waters as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, is a belt of coastal waters extending at most 12 nautical miles from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state.

A carrier near territorial waters.

I doubt you know what territorial waters means.

 

[Basel]

My mistake, it doesn't. I was thinking of upgrades when I said that.

Anyway, the IN doesn't have anything to fear from the 054A.

Basically they do have to fear, because shipping in Arabian sea is dense and with signature of a boat T-54A with long range attack capability can be very lethal opponent specially when they can receive data from 3rd party allowing them to move in passive sensor mode.

 

[randomradio]

I know what it means but you probably don't understand the difference between "close to" and "in"

Territorial waters as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, is a belt of coastal waters extending at most 12 nautical miles from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state.

I think you should look up Google Maps and see where the carrier is best operated from.

Basically they do have to fear, because shipping in Arabian sea is dense and with signature of a boat T-54A with long range attack capability can be very lethal opponent specially when they can receive data from 3rd party allowing them to move in passive sensor mode.

We have satellites.

 

[Basel]

I think you should look up Google Maps and see where the carrier is best operated from.



We have satellites.

We know how to tackle them.

 

[randomradio]

We know how to tackle them.

Even the US can only claim that.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Even the US can only claim that.

Satellites orbit is predictable @randomradio

Attacking any CBG, not just the USN.

In fact, a few other CBGs, including India's, have more advanced air defences than the USN does today.

you have the similar SAMs like SM-3, SM-6, evolved sea sparrow, RAM that USN have @randomradio

GAY shupa dupa powa HIND kid @randomradio

 

[randomradio]

Satellites orbit is predictable @randomradio

You can do nothing about it though.

you have the similar SAMs like SM-3, SM-6, evolved sea sparrow, RAM that USN have @randomradio

GAY shupa dupa powa HIND kid @randomradio

Our SAMs on ships for AAW are better than what the USN operates.