Bangladesh Navy

[Avicenna]

I applaud Bangaldesh getting these subs. They are obsolete sure. However, lets learn to crawl before we walk.

 

[syed1]

 

[mb444]

The author is a "postgraduate student at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore" and a USN ASW intelligence officer. That says a lot. Singapore is a US ally, tried and true.

As I've said in other threads before - India de-commissioned the equivalent to the Ming class (Foxtrots) some ten years ago.

India has since then surpassed every neighbor country in Asia in number and sophistication of submarines operated, except China (well North Korea has a lot of older hulks, mostly smaller in size).

India's supposed concern about Bangladesh' submarine purchase, sob-sister story and sending defense minister to Bangladesh should not fool anyone. It will take Bangladesh a decade to match Indian submarine force in sophistication, and BN will never match IN in number of submarines. It may achieve parity in a decade as a credible deterrent force, instead of being a doormat to be walked all over. But only if Bangladesh plays its cards right and only if it assures India that it is not a threat, which is pretty much reality.

Only neighbor of India who is even close to India's naval sub-surface capability is Pakistan, but India's induction of self-built SSBN capability will up-end that scenario soon, or already has. Pakistan wields enough submarine force to be a credible deterrent to India, but only in conventional diesel submarine sense. Pakistan has no SSBN's or nuclear attack subs. If it does, it will be news to me.

The day Pakistan or Bangladesh gets S26 subs like Thailand (039 class) is when I will really celebrate. Getting those will mean something.

Two submarines added to Bangladesh armada

Another US writer in the diplomat wrote about the Thailand sub purchase too.

These guys are all harping on the same tune from Singapore.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/does-thailand-really-need-submarines/

These whiny 'articles' are all show and no go - no offense. News-pieces propagated by sources friendly to our big neighbor to show Bangladesh made an important purchase. Granted it is a rather unconventional step in the right direction - years in the planning by our Navy. Kudos to the admirals of BN for having some balls - Salam!

I am really confused about your contradictory statements.

If these subs are no threat why bother commenting?

BD can only achieve deterrence capabilities as long as India does not perceive a threat!!! Against whom do you suppose we are seeking deference against. What are subs other than a completely offensive platform.

The subs according to you are obsolete yet you commend BN for getting them.

It is irrelevant what India has, BN does not require parity. BN needs to assure BD sovereignty and these fulfil the aim of area denial. Other navies simply knowing of the existence of BN subs will think twice before venturing into BN territory and should they do so need to come with an whole shebang of ASW platforms. That won't happen unless we are at war which I don't see as realistic.

The point of the article was not the Subs per se but that BD has officially joined the Chinese string of pearls alliance against India/US axis. The status quo has been shattered and there is nothing that US/India can do about it. If this article is part of a psy-war then it's very poor and much much too late, the damage has already been done and no amount of mea culpa will alter the current or future course of events.

 

[TopCat]

I am really confused about your contradictory statements.

If these subs are no threat why bother commenting?

BD can only achieve deterrence capabilities as long as India does not perceive a threat!!! Against whom do you suppose we are seeking deference against. What are subs other than a completely offensive platform.

The subs according to you are obsolete yet you commend BN for getting them.

It is irrelevant what India has, BN does not require parity. BN needs to assure BD sovereignty and these fulfil the aim of area denial. Other navies simply knowing of the existence of BN subs will think twice before venturing into BN territory and should they do so need to come with an whole shebang of ASW platforms. That won't happen unless we are at war which I don't see as realistic.

The point of the article was not the Subs per se but that BD has officially joined the Chinese string of pearls alliance against India/US axis. The status quo has been shattered and there is nothing that US/India can do about it. If this article is part of a psy-war then it's very poor and much much too late, the damage has already been done and no amount of mea culpa will alter the current or future course of events.

The whole sky will fall on India once we add few J-10 this year...
Contrary to @Bilal9 theory BD never took India's concern as a legitimate ingredients while equipping itself. Its only the $$$ which were the concern.

 

[Bilal9]

I am really confused about your contradictory statements.

If these subs are no threat why bother commenting?

BD can only achieve deterrence capabilities as long as India does not perceive a threat!!! Against whom do you suppose we are seeking deference against. What are subs other than a completely offensive platform.

The subs according to you are obsolete yet you commend BN for getting them.

It is irrelevant what India has, BN does not require parity. BN needs to assure BD sovereignty and these fulfil the aim of area denial. Other navies simply knowing of the existence of BN subs will think twice before venturing into BN territory and should they do so need to come with an whole shebang of ASW platforms. That won't happen unless we are at war which I don't see as realistic.

The point of the article was not the Subs per se but that BD has officially joined the Chinese string of pearls alliance against India/US axis. The status quo has been shattered and there is nothing that US/India can do about it. If this article is part of a psy-war then it's very poor and much much too late, the damage has already been done and no amount of mea culpa will alter the current or future course of events.

I don't think you guys get what I'm driving at. Please read my opinions carefully....and understand that I can be wrong at times as well. But I don't do needless 'chapabazi'.

• Some of the Bangladeshi posters here didn't like it because I'm not as enthusiastic as some of you regarding the Ming class. And some of you have gone sourpuss on me because I rained on your parade and showed you reality. Well too bad. I reserve the right to have an opinion...

• Like I said - India retired these a decade ago. Let's not pat ourselves on the backs too soon.

• The Mings are not panacea to our undersea combat capability gap. Far from it. In real terms they _are_ obsolete, no question. Even after refurbishment.

• Compared to the diesel subs Pakistan, India, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and even Singapore is wielding, these submarines really possess no threat. When India is building modern Scorpene diesel subs at Mazagon (Mumbai), Pakistan is building (building, not simply buying) modern diesel Agosta 90B subs and Singapore Navy possesses the ultramodern Swedish Södermanland class subs (modernized Gotland class) you cannot really get all worked up about Mings designed some fifty years ago. Big step yes - but anywhere close to ideal? No.

• The subs were bought at rather inflated supposed 'friendship' prices by the present govt. in cahoots with Navy personnel (even at USD203 million). And this is from senior level Navy sources. If you have access to them - please clarify this yourself. Not many people in the Navy will fess up to this but I am convinced (with my sources).

• I commended the fact we finally got something (although simply for training purposes). Any sub is better than no sub. Don't interpret my commendation as excitement.

• Of course we cannot stop with Mings, we are so behind. BN should focus _now_ on acquisition of a more sophisticated class of submarine specialized in undersea combat for littoral sea as opposed to deep water, as Thailand is now actively pursuing SSK sub types with this capability, and this increasingly looks to be a Gotland class variant.

• Thailand was initially very interested in the S26T (export version of the 039 Yuan class) as was Pakistan. But these are modified Kilo class subs and may not be suitable for littoral warfare in the shallow seas (max depth 279 feet) around the Gulf of Thailand. They are now looking for German U212 and U214 variants (even South Korean Chang Bogo variants that Indonesia bought) or variants made by DCNS or Kockums. I will have to confess that I was gung ho about S26 as well but unlike Pakistan, Thailand seems increasingly to have turned to Gotland class now, following leasing (and success) of Gotland class as 'bogies' in USN sub games off the California coast.

• Vietnam is also looking at adding smaller Scorpene variant SSK's after its recent batch of Kilo purchases. These will be hunter-killer attack subs to hunt other subs in littoral areas, which is different from the role of missile launching Kilos to attack coastal targets which they already have.

• SSKs are better suited than larger subs (like SSNs) for defending merchant shipping in coastal areas. They can lay mines covertly off approaches to enemy naval bases and ports, detect enemy mines, and deliver special-operations teams.

• The Bay of Bengal littoral shelf is very similar to the shallow littoral seas around the Gulf of Thailand. We should be concentrating on these areas to defend first for undersea warfare. Hence slightly smaller displacement subs (1000t to 1500t) makes more sense than 2000t plus displacement subs which are more meant for deeper waters. The most ideal sub for this is the Gotland class made in Sweden. They cost around $365 million each (not counting bribes or training).

Please read the following, these will keep you guys up-to-date with current thinking on littoral undersea warfare scenario.

https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment...RIGHT-SUBMARINE-FOR-LURKING-IN-THE-LITTO.aspx

I'd also ask @Penguin bhai to graciously offer his expert opinion on the Gotland class SSK's and their suitability for littoral warfare.

Contrary to @Bilal9 theory BD never took India's concern as a legitimate ingredients while equipping itself.

That was never my theory. I was saying Indian supposed 'concern' was fake and was just an inflated 'show'.

They won't have to worry about any J-10 or Ming purchase Bangladesh makes. For a long time. They have themselves covered. With people much more skilled and educated than we possess in our military. Never underestimate Indians or any other 'enemy'.

None of these defense purchases is a 'magic bullet' or panacea to cure the defense ills for Bangladesh.

One step at a time.

Why are you guys so bent on painting me as a mouthpiece of India if I walk the 'neutral line' or speak practically?

There is opinion and there is 'informed' opinion.

Look at what India's strengths are around Bangladesh and think about countering them - methodically.

India does not need to bat an eyelash if Bangladesh gets J-10's. What Parrikar does is just a show.

 

[mb444]

I don't think you guys get what I'm driving at. Please read my opinions carefully....and understand that I can be wrong at times as well. But I don't do needless 'chapabazi'.

• Some of the Bangladeshi posters here didn't like it because I'm not as enthusiastic as some of you regarding the Ming class. And some of you have gone sourpuss on me because I rained on your parade and showed you reality. Well too bad. I reserve the right to have an opinion...

• Like I said - India retired these a decade ago. Let's not pat ourselves on the backs too soon.

• The Mings are not panacea to our undersea combat capability gap. Far from it. In real terms they _are_ obsolete, no question. Even after refurbishment.

• Compared to the diesel subs Pakistan, India, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and even Singapore is wielding, these submarines really possess no threat. When India is building modern Scorpene diesel subs at Mazagon (Mumbai), Pakistan is building (building, not simply buying) modern diesel Agosta 90B subs and Singapore Navy possesses the ultramodern Swedish Södermanland class subs (modernized Gotland class) you cannot really get all worked up about Mings designed some fifty years ago. Big step yes - but anywhere close to ideal? No.

• The subs were bought at rather inflated supposed 'friendship' prices by the present govt. in cahoots with Navy personnel (even at USD203 million). And this is from senior level Navy sources. If you have access to them - please clarify this yourself. Not many people in the Navy will fess up to this but I am convinced (with my sources).

• I commended the fact we finally got something (although simply for training purposes). Any sub is better than no sub. Don't interpret my commendation as excitement.

• Of course we cannot stop with Mings, we are so behind. BN should focus _now_ on acquisition of a more sophisticated class of submarine specialized in undersea combat for littoral sea as opposed to deep water, as Thailand is now actively pursuing SSK sub types with this capability, and this increasingly looks to be a Gotland class variant.

• Thailand was initially very interested in the S26T (export version of the 039 Yuan class) as was Pakistan. But these are modified Kilo class subs and may not be suitable for littoral warfare in the shallow seas (max depth 279 feet) around the Gulf of Thailand. They are now looking for German U212 and U214 variants (even South Korean Chang Bogo variants that Indonesia bought) or variants made by DCNS or Kockums. I will have to confess that I was gung ho about S26 as well but unlike Pakistan, Thailand seems increasingly to have turned to Gotland class now, following leasing (and success) of Gotland class as 'bogies' in USN sub games off the California coast.

• Vietnam is also looking at adding smaller Scorpene variant SSK's after its recent batch of Kilo purchases. These will be hunter-killer attack subs to hunt other subs in littoral areas, which is different from the role of missile launching Kilos to attack coastal targets which they already have.

• SSKs are better suited than larger subs (like SSNs) for defending merchant shipping in coastal areas. They can lay mines covertly off approaches to enemy naval bases and ports, detect enemy mines, and deliver special-operations teams.

• The Bay of Bengal littoral shelf is very similar to the shallow littoral seas around the Gulf of Thailand. We should be concentrating on these areas to defend first for undersea warfare. Hence slightly smaller displacement subs (1000t to 1500t) makes more sense than 2000t plus displacement subs which are more meant for deeper waters. The most ideal sub for this is the Gotland class made in Sweden. They cost around $365 million each (not counting bribes or training).

Please read the following, these will keep you guys up-to-date with current thinking on littoral undersea warfare scenario.

https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment...RIGHT-SUBMARINE-FOR-LURKING-IN-THE-LITTO.aspx

I'd also ask @Penguin bhai to graciously offer his expert opinion on the Gotland class SSK's and their suitability for littoral warfare.



That was never my theory. I was saying Indian supposed 'concern' was fake and was just an inflated 'show'.

They won't have to worry about any J-10 or Ming purchase Bangladesh makes. For a long time. They have themselves covered. With people much more skilled and educated than we possess in our military. Never underestimate Indians or any other 'enemy'.

None of these defense purchases is a 'magic bullet' or panacea to cure the defense ills for Bangladesh.

One step at a time.

Why are you guys so bent on painting me as a mouthpiece of India if I walk the 'neutral line' or speak practically?

There is opinion and there is 'informed' opinion.

Look at what India's strengths are around Bangladesh and think about countering them - methodically.

India does not need to bat an eyelash if Bangladesh gets J-10's. What Parrikar does is just a show.

You have absolute right to hold any opinion of your choice.

I don't have any issue with you thinking Mings are not particularly great.

My point was that if Mings possess no threat why would India or anyone else raise an issue or talk about it or send around their defence minister. Your position is it's just for show.

Who is the performance for.... the Indian public? The GOI is creating an issue to divert more funds for defense. If that's the case then they have detected a threat that did not exist before.

Is it for the BD public? Does the Indian defence establishment not have better things to do?

You are comparing BD to countries whose economy can afford better equipment, have much larger sea territory to defend or actively in competition with their neighbours. None of this is the case for BD.

The whole point of the article was BD officially joining string of pearls alliance. This is a change to BD historically being US centric. As the US/India pivot develops so does the Asian china centric alliance to counter it. BD is now part of the latter. The issue is more than a couple of subs.

 

[Penguin]

I'd also ask @Penguin bhai to graciously offer his expert opinion on the Gotland class SSK's and their suitability for littoral warfare.

Gotland class, like e.g. the slightly larger German Type 212a but also like the smaller German designed Norwegian operated Type 210 Ula class , are not solely for Baltic operations but also for North Sea approaches and even North Atlantic. Unlike e.g the preceeding classes like Type 201/205/206/207, which where well under 1000 tons, like Sweden's earlier Neptun, Hajen, and Draken classes. Their following Sjoormen class was more the size of Gotlands but the subsequent Nacken class went down to the size of Type 210 Ula again. And also the Västergötland class. The Gotland class is more similar in size again to Sjoormen class. The future A26 will be close to 2000 tons. So, it seems that the Swedes, like the Germans, have opted over time to go with bigger subs. This clearly has to do with mission perception.

All the newest boats from Sweden and Germany are still smaller than e.g. the 2650ton Dutch Walrus class, which is oriented primarily to North Sea, North Atlantic and Mediterreanean waters, but also e.g. Caribbean (where some part of our Kingdom still remain). The need for out of area ops has contributed to larger designs (i.e. longer endurance > size). 212A was to be for both German and Italian navies i.e. not just Baltic but also larger, deeper Med. Hence also larger than preceeding German navy boats.

I don't think any of the modern boats differ much in capability. The bigger Dutch subs have been used extensively for covert intel gathering along e.g. the Yogoslavian coast back in the 1990s and were very good at that, their size notwithstanding.

Shallow waters clearly prevent deep diving as a means to avoid detection and this implies a premium on other means of remaining (extra) stealthy e.g. use of a-magnetic steel (see German subs like 212A). X-planes help ability to maneouvre, this is good in any situation, but may be extra import in places where maneouvre space is limited.

 

[Dean Winchester]

The whole sky will fall on India once we add few J-10 this year...
Contrary to @Bilal9 theory BD never took India's concern as a legitimate ingredients while equipping itself. Its only the $$$ which were the concern.

Even if Bangladesh orders Fighters jets in 2017, delivery won't take place before 2020.

 

[Penguin]

A qualified submarine arm means training and building up a cadre. This may take years. In that sense, 035 Mings could be good interim vehicles. They are much improved 033 Romeo's. Untill very recently, the Egyptian navy operated four 033s modernized by US Tacoma Shipbuilding Corporation and equipped with a new CSU-83 sonar, UGM-84 Harpoon missiles and Mark 37 torpedoes. These are now being replaced by German Type 209/1400s. But this goes to show that there is some mileage to be had from the 035s, untill such time that a cadre has been trained and funds are available for newer, more modern designs. Delivery of 035s certainly is quicker than having new boats built (I'm assuming the Type-035Gs have been taken out of the PLAN pool and were refurbished before delivery), thus jump-starting a submarine arm.

 

[damiendehorn]

Launche of a new coast guard boat.

 

[Bilal9]

Who is the performance for.... the Indian public? The GOI is creating an issue to divert more funds for defense. If that's the case then they have detected a threat that did not exist before.

You are right in that this does make a 'case' for more defense spending in GOI. Indian right-wing defense war-hawks are trumpeting this as a new 'strategic defense development' in the neighborhood which 'needs to be monitored and/or countered'.

Is it for the BD public? Does the Indian defence establishment not have better things to do?

Indian defense establishment cares little about BD public opinion.

You are comparing BD to countries whose economy can afford better equipment, have much larger sea territory to defend or actively in competition with their neighbours. None of this is the case for BD.

Bangladesh is a export-based economy on a much larger scale for its size of economy - even compared to India. Therefore protection of sea-lanes and defense of 'blue-economy' is crucial. Which makes subs an essential part of naval strategy, all the way to international waters. Any naval 'blockade' has to be effectively dealt with and subs can be an effective deterrent to ad-hoc blockades by unfriendly neighbors. For this Mings aren't going to do - we need more effective modern subs, Chang Bogos or Gotland Class might be much more appropriate which cost 350 Million each. S26T (Yuan class) is not a lot cheaper. I think protecting our sea lanes will be worth it to get a couple more nicer subs...Thailand is getting four or maybe even six just for this reason. Of course their littoral shelf (Gulf of Thailand) is a larger area to patrol and they have to patrol the Andaman Sea as well.

The whole point of the article was BD officially joining string of pearls alliance. This is a change to BD historically being US centric. As the US/India pivot develops so does the Asian china centric alliance to counter it. BD is now part of the latter. The issue is more than a couple of subs.

Whether 'BD has 'officially joined string of pearls alliance' is still open to speculation. Yes it does seem so according to Indian Media, but they are the only ones making noise about it, in typical fashion. We do know Bangladesh is a major Chinese defense-product client state. However one can argue that price and reliability (absence of strings) are as big a factor than simple client-state relationship.

I remain unconvinced about this until we get,

a) More subs of advanced variety from China
b) More advanced Air-defense assets from China (modern Chinese front line fighters).
c) More labor-intensive China industries re-located to Bangladesh, which would complete the client state equation.

 

[Areesh]

I don't think you guys get what I'm driving at. Please read my opinions carefully....and understand that I can be wrong at times as well. But I don't do needless 'chapabazi'.

• Some of the Bangladeshi posters here didn't like it because I'm not as enthusiastic as some of you regarding the Ming class. And some of you have gone sourpuss on me because I rained on your parade and showed you reality. Well too bad. I reserve the right to have an opinion...

• Like I said - India retired these a decade ago. Let's not pat ourselves on the backs too soon.

• The Mings are not panacea to our undersea combat capability gap. Far from it. In real terms they _are_ obsolete, no question. Even after refurbishment.

• Compared to the diesel subs Pakistan, India, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and even Singapore is wielding, these submarines really possess no threat. When India is building modern Scorpene diesel subs at Mazagon (Mumbai), Pakistan is building (building, not simply buying) modern diesel Agosta 90B subs and Singapore Navy possesses the ultramodern Swedish Södermanland class subs (modernized Gotland class) you cannot really get all worked up about Mings designed some fifty years ago. Big step yes - but anywhere close to ideal? No.

• The subs were bought at rather inflated supposed 'friendship' prices by the present govt. in cahoots with Navy personnel (even at USD203 million). And this is from senior level Navy sources. If you have access to them - please clarify this yourself. Not many people in the Navy will fess up to this but I am convinced (with my sources).

• I commended the fact we finally got something (although simply for training purposes). Any sub is better than no sub. Don't interpret my commendation as excitement.

• Of course we cannot stop with Mings, we are so behind. BN should focus _now_ on acquisition of a more sophisticated class of submarine specialized in undersea combat for littoral sea as opposed to deep water, as Thailand is now actively pursuing SSK sub types with this capability, and this increasingly looks to be a Gotland class variant.

• Thailand was initially very interested in the S26T (export version of the 039 Yuan class) as was Pakistan. But these are modified Kilo class subs and may not be suitable for littoral warfare in the shallow seas (max depth 279 feet) around the Gulf of Thailand. They are now looking for German U212 and U214 variants (even South Korean Chang Bogo variants that Indonesia bought) or variants made by DCNS or Kockums. I will have to confess that I was gung ho about S26 as well but unlike Pakistan, Thailand seems increasingly to have turned to Gotland class now, following leasing (and success) of Gotland class as 'bogies' in USN sub games off the California coast.

• Vietnam is also looking at adding smaller Scorpene variant SSK's after its recent batch of Kilo purchases. These will be hunter-killer attack subs to hunt other subs in littoral areas, which is different from the role of missile launching Kilos to attack coastal targets which they already have.

• SSKs are better suited than larger subs (like SSNs) for defending merchant shipping in coastal areas. They can lay mines covertly off approaches to enemy naval bases and ports, detect enemy mines, and deliver special-operations teams.

• The Bay of Bengal littoral shelf is very similar to the shallow littoral seas around the Gulf of Thailand. We should be concentrating on these areas to defend first for undersea warfare. Hence slightly smaller displacement subs (1000t to 1500t) makes more sense than 2000t plus displacement subs which are more meant for deeper waters. The most ideal sub for this is the Gotland class made in Sweden. They cost around $365 million each (not counting bribes or training).

Please read the following, these will keep you guys up-to-date with current thinking on littoral undersea warfare scenario.

https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment...RIGHT-SUBMARINE-FOR-LURKING-IN-THE-LITTO.aspx

I'd also ask @Penguin bhai to graciously offer his expert opinion on the Gotland class SSK's and their suitability for littoral warfare.



That was never my theory. I was saying Indian supposed 'concern' was fake and was just an inflated 'show'.

They won't have to worry about any J-10 or Ming purchase Bangladesh makes. For a long time. They have themselves covered. With people much more skilled and educated than we possess in our military. Never underestimate Indians or any other 'enemy'.

None of these defense purchases is a 'magic bullet' or panacea to cure the defense ills for Bangladesh.

One step at a time.

Why are you guys so bent on painting me as a mouthpiece of India if I walk the 'neutral line' or speak practically?

There is opinion and there is 'informed' opinion.

Look at what India's strengths are around Bangladesh and think about countering them - methodically.

India does not need to bat an eyelash if Bangladesh gets J-10's. What Parrikar does is just a show.

Few corrections.

Pakistan is not building any Augusta 90b anymore. The last Augusta 90b PNS Hamza that we built was built at Karachi 10 years ago. Now we are upgrading them to make them even more efficient with the help from Turkey. All Augusta90b are AIP equipped since 2011.

We are now buying 8 Chinese Subs(6 S26P, 2S30). 4 would be built in China while remaining 4 would be built in Karachi. Pakistan is not only increasing the number of subs but it also wants these subs to launch to sub based version of Babur to complete its nuclear triad.

Now coming to the BD deal of Ming class submarines. I would call it a decent deal for a small country like BD that lacked this capability. This is a massive leap for BD navy. Your most probable and immediate threat Myanmar Navy has no submarines. You can work with these 2 submarine for next 2-3 years and then you can order 2-4 S26 submarines from China. I said S26 because you might be able to get more feasible and attractive deal financially from China which might not be possible from others. That is enough of the number of submarines for a country like BD that has just started using submarines. You also need to spend money on bigger and more modern ships. You need more frigates and FAC's.

So you cannot compare BN situation with IN or PN who have far different threat perceptions and military objectives. India is planning for two front war while Pakistan wants to complete its nuclear triad. Surely BD doesn't have any similar ambitions. BD is not going to hostilities with India anyways and you are already ahead of Myanmar.

 

[Nike]

Seems like our detrerrence is already started to show its effect. No wonder who will start BARKING next! As BD-China relationship is taking off the ground backed by multi dimentional engagements, most importantly as our country is taking off, we will not fetch same sort of problems that once Indonesia had with its subs.

which problems?

 

[Arthur]

BNS Agroodoot

 

[mb444]

which problems?

Inability to maintain and service them.