Babur vs Krishnadevaraya in 16th century

[Charon]

Well, he committed genocide in India but also in many other parts of the world.

He was responsible for the genocide of 15 million to 20 million people in West Asia, South Asia, Central Asia and Russia, killing roughly 4% of the world population at the time.

I won't comment about how you want to see him, for me he was pure barbaric evil. "Art and culture" don't really go with mass genocides and rapine and pyramids of skulls.

Hitler also looked at himself as an artist. Not how most of the world thinks of him.

I think about him more two-minded. It's a fact that he rebuilt destoryed cities like Samarkand or Bukhara and he also supported arts and culture but he's style to rule and his brutality makes him almost a psychopath in my eyes. He grew up as a steppe nomad. Building skull pyramids and making a skull cup from the enemy was a common cultural feature for all steppe nomads whether it be Scythians, Turkics or Mongols.

 

[Vinod2070]

I think about him more two-minded. It's a fact that he rebuilt destoryed cities like Samarkand or Bukhara and he also supported arts and culture but he's style to rule and his brutality makes him almost a psychopath in my eyes. He grew up as a steppe nomad. Building skull pyramids and making a skull cup from the enemy was a common cultural feature for all steppe nomads whether it be Scythians, Turkics or Mongols.

Exactly what I meant earlier.

You can surely see how that would appear to people from civilized, settled places.

 

[Slayer786]

There is no intention to "take credit away" from anyone. I am just being more balanced on their bad aspects which in my opinion (based on facts I have mentioned) far outweighed any good.

A few supposedly grand buildings (when they destroyed far more) don't change the fact that the whole system was built on exploitation.



Well, Mughals had become almost powerless from almost early 1700s.

This is what was written more than 100 years before 1857.

Hukumat-e Shah Alam, Az Dilli ta Palam

The rule of Shah Alam stretches from Delhi to Palam.

Mughal kings used to live at the mercy of the Jats and Marathas at this time. Bahadur Shah was a ruler only in his palace (not even there actually, he was a virtual slave to the British regent for more than a decade before 1857).

Anyway, we can choose to look at this issue differently. There were good aspects and bad. I think of this period mostly as a dark period in our history, something that should not be given more than a foot note.

Well I can understand where you are coming from. You would consider it a dark period in history as most hindus do. But we muslims consider that a golden period.
Vastly contrasting views my friend. So I guess we will leave it at that.

 

[bronxbull]

When the battle did not take place. You guys can write whatever logic, assumptions or fairytale in the end. What Babur gave to India was the Mughul Dynasty which the world admired and respected. Whereas the other guy is hardly heard of in the world. And I bet a lot of north Indians would also not have heard about the guy.

Taj Mahal is an icon which is one of the seventh Wonder of the World. A Mughal dynasty legacy.
And what did the other guy or his heirs leave the world? Can someone let me know please?

whats the big deal if one has heard or not heard of anything?

Marketing doesn't decide facts,does it?

Calm down. Relax and take a deep breath. Taj Mahal is a monument which is one of the most famous in the world. Now there might be other sites also beautiful, but none can give the nostalgic feelings of romance. Many people in the world dream of visiting India just for Taj Mahal. It is an important icon which India should be proud of.
Now the other guy, Krishna something might be an awesome ruler, but I was talking about the legacy left behind by him or his heir. Lets not start competing with all the wonders of the world which this guy did not do. So no hard feelings. All I want to show is that since both did not go to battle, it is pointless to assume who would have won. The best way to compare between them was the legacy left behind.

Thats your opinion,

i dont see any useful legacy being left behind my the Mughals apart from their buildings.

People of India take their culture from a longtime ago and the mughal period of less than 200 years is just a story.

 

[bronxbull]

The inherent weakness of Krishnadevaraya and the kingdom he set up was their adherence with Vaishnabism. No, the huge mass of Krishnadevaraya would have trampled themselves in battle with the mobile, better equipped, better trained, more motivated and better led army of Babur which had fashioned newer tactics in the course of endless battles it fought. In the long run too, the religious / cast division could not sustain any sizable southern Vaishnab kingdom.

Nah,too many details decide things.

To be Honest babur's time was very short,Akbar to Aurangazeb,a period of 150 years would be the real Mughal rule.

Don't who will win but Uzbeks are much more warlike and ferocious people than South Indians.
Remember Timur was also an Uzbek.
Uzbeks also have significant Mongol genes.

yeah but you need brains also,you can win all you want in the plains but in dense thick forests and rivers,you need tact and brains.

Babar was the underdog in all the wars he fought against his uncles in Farganah, in Kabul, in Delhi/Hindustan (1526) as well as in Bengal. Wars in the eastern front were the most difficult ones not only for Babar but also for Humayun, Akber as well as Jahangir. Only during Jahangir the entire Bengal was subdued in around 1605.

Babar's formidable enemy was Sultan Nasrat Shah who gave shelter to the Hindustani Pathans who were forced out of their power base when Babar defeated Sultan Ibrahim Lodi of Delhi in the Battle of 1st Panipath in 1526.

Mahmud Shah, the younger brother of slain Ibrahim, went with all his retinues and Pathan dependents to the Court of Sultan Nasrat Shah of Bengal and betrothed Ibrahim's daughter to him.

Anyway, it is a long history. But, there was a war between the troops of Bengal and Babar's. Babar did not win an outright war. But, the parties agreed to a mutually agreed border.

So, I wonder, if another Raja or Sultan of India in those days had the capability to counter Babar, specially when we see even Rana Sangram Singh could not achieve such a glory. He lost in the Battle of Khanua. Krishnadev Raya cannot possibly be counted as a formidable opponent, although history also attests that Vijapur maintained its independence from Delhi for many years.

who are these budding speculators saying this is not possible,that is not possible.

funny.

 

[bronxbull]

Babur was a born warrior. He would not certainly have advanced with a tiny number of force against a formidable opponent.

Babur did not demand the land that was not under Ibrahim Lodi. So, it would have been Krishnadev Narayan who would have to advance to a far away central Hindustan.

So, now the question is was he or his forces were that capable to plan a seize and a war in a far away place? The territories would have been unknown to him and Babur would have already made compromise with other Rajput and Muslim Chieftains in the north, west and east to form an union.

Kabul was already under his control. So, it is not that his troops would remain limited at 15,000 men. Pathans were already coming to work in his military.

So, it is wise not to imagine a war with a static number of 15,000. It could have easily swelled to 150,000 had Babur chosen so.

why would he do that?

a barren stretch called Deccan plateau?

why would he leave the lush green forests and great places of south India for central India?

 

[bronxbull]

You are now taking away the credit from the Mughals. The world was always fascinated by the Mughals because of the magnificent architectural marvels like Taj Mahal, Badshahi Mosque, Lahore Fort.
Many books have been written on the Mughals by indian and non-indian writers. There is a kind of nostalgic feelings attached to the empire that is hard to describe.
During their rule they brought innovative military tactics and arts and cultures.




Now here the western author talks about the taj Mahal as the most famous architecture by the Moghuls.

There were other areas also where the Mughals are credited with as can be read below.


The Express Tribune



Now the other guys reign was only 20 odd years from 1509-1529. I have read his history. He was a magnificent ruler and was a powerful adversary. But after his reign ended, he was a part of history. Now I am sure that there were many empires in India who had great rulers like him for some odd years or so.
But we are talking about the Mughals who ruled in India from 1526-1857 when the last Mughal emperor was sent into exile by the British.

I dont see any sophistication in architecture or for that matter utility in any of those masjids/mahals built on plains.

I mean none of them could build anything on the mountains/deserts,which hindu kings have done so.

1576-1707.

Thats it.

Aurangazeb dies and it is RIP.

Mughal Empire is an overhyped empire in history textbooks,it has a few good buildings,again not so sophisticated just big pillars a dome.

That guy was unique in many ways and because of him,we south indians kept our culture unlike north indians.

 

[Slayer786]

I dont see any sophistication in architecture or for that matter utility in any of those masjids/mahals built on plains.

I mean none of them could build anything on the mountains/deserts,which hindu kings have done so.

1576-1707.

Thats it.

Aurangazeb dies and it is RIP.

Mughal Empire is an overhyped empire in history textbooks,it has a few good buildings,again not so sophisticated just big pillars a dome.

That guy was unique in many ways and because of him,we south indians kept our culture unlike north indians.

Wow! Forget the experts acknowledging the Mughals as one of the most important part of Indian history. Forget the movie makers making many films on this subject from documentaries and movies on the Mughals.
They should have just come and asked you what you thought about them as you seem to be very knowledgeable and insightful by the explanation you have given us all.
Thanks for your expertise on this subject.

 

[bronxbull]

which expert?

so you dont have an independent opinion of your own?

Anyone can market/hype anything.

So I should let Irfan Habib/Romila Thapar/Ashutosh Gowatrikar decide for me?

Please dude,i am not a naive layman like you.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

i watched many temples of tamil nadu on tv and movies.I also watched tajmahal on tv itself.going by the looks tajmahal is equal to the dust of left boot of those temples.its all about publicity.tamilians should start marketing extensively their temples.i dont think there are any other constructions in india which stand equal to them.muslims have destroyed most of the temples in other places and thankfully TN was never ruled by muslims(for a long period).so their constructions still exist

I think we dont require that...If we wanted to market ourselves we can just say that all the Science Nobel laureates were from the TN? It sounds stupid.

 

[hussain0216]

You are not going to get hindu's supporting the muslim conquerors

There is a 1000 year history of muslims entering and conquering atleast some part of the indian subcontinet,

This is what happens, this is what warriors and conquerors do, they beat weak opponents into the ground and make vast empires in the pursuit of dominance and wealth

Saying blah blah blah Babar was a barbarian is just pointless, he did no different to what the Romans did, Alexander the Great did, the british empire did the french did

The British empire, the Roman empire, the Mughals the Ottomans etc these are great empires and each had to put an immense amount of pain on the people they conquered but they will be remembered throughout history

No one is going to remember a random south indian king and no one cares

Get over it, Hindu india was defeated and conquered

The hindu's cant admit they were weaker, less able and were beat into the ground.

The come up with a 1001 excuses about why they were defeated,

How the wind was against them
How it was luck or chance
How some soldiers mother cooked bad parath's and they got a tummy ache and couldnt fight properly

Just endless excuses, followed by a point blank refusal of the rule and achivements of the muslims in India




Hindu's may want to think back to some ancient time when the Dharma kingdoms ruled but muslims in the subcontinent just looks at those times as Jahil Pagan times

 

[eastwatch]

why would he do that?

a barren stretch called Deccan plateau?

why would he leave the lush green forests and great places of south India for central India?

Because people here are claiming that the south Indian King was a super human with more than 700,000 standing army. In 1520s and a standing army of 700,000 troops, but not going for quick victory against a new comer Babar? People really claim extravagant!!!

Babur would have vacated Delhi after hearing that Hindu King's adventure, no doubt.

 

[bronxbull]

There was an awesome King in Mewar called Rana Sangha,even Ibrahim Lodhi betrayed by his own uncle in the battle was a great king.

Not a barbarian like Babur.

 

[eastwatch]

There was an awesome King in Mewar called Rana Sangha,even Ibrahim Lodhi betrayed by his own uncle in the battle was a great king.

Not a barbarian like Babur.

We are talking about Babur and not Timur. Babur forged a new empire in Hindustan with his high class war machine. It was 1520s and he used the most famous Mongolian-developed compound bows that could throw arrows and pierce through a cow skin shield. It was his greatest weapon, though I am not demeaning his first use of cannons in wars both in north and east.

Rana Sangha (we call him Rana Sangram Singh), the most famous King, was also defeated by Babur in the battle of Khanua. He was the strongest after the defeat of Ibrahim Lodi.

 

[kalu_miah]

I think about him more two-minded. It's a fact that he rebuilt destoryed cities like Samarkand or Bukhara and he also supported arts and culture but he's style to rule and his brutality makes him almost a psychopath in my eyes. He grew up as a steppe nomad. Building skull pyramids and making a skull cup from the enemy was a common cultural feature for all steppe nomads whether it be Scythians, Turkics or Mongols.

Just to support your point, building pyramid of skulls and other such brutalities were medieval psychological war tactics used by Mongols:
Psychological warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Mongols

Genghis Khan, leader of the Mongolian Empire in the 13th century AD, united his people to eventually create the largest contiguous empire in human history. Defeating the will of the enemy was the top priority.

Before attacking a settlement, the Mongol generals demanded submission to the Khan, and threatened the initial villages with complete destruction if they refused to surrender. After winning the battle, the Mongol generals fulfilled their threats and massacred the survivors.

Examples include the destruction of the nations of Kiev and Khwarizm. Consequently, tales of the encroaching horde spread to the next villages and created an aura of insecurity that undermined the possibility of future resistance.

Subsequent nations were much more likely to surrender to the Mongols without fighting. Often this, as much as the Mongols' tactical prowess, secured quick Mongol victories.

Genghis Khan also employed tactics that made his numbers seem greater than they actually were. During night operations he ordered each soldier to light three torches at dusk to give the illusion of an overwhelming army and deceive and intimidate enemy scouts. He also sometimes had objects tied to the tails of his horses, so that riding on open and dry fields raised a cloud of dust that gave the enemy the impression of great numbers. His soldiers used arrows specially notched to whistle as they flew through the air, creating a terrifying noise.

The Mongols also employed other gruesome terror tactics to weaken the will to resist. One infamous incident occurred during Tamerlane's Indian campaign. Tamerlane, an heir to the Mongol martial tradition, built a pyramid of 90,000 human heads in front of the walls of Delhi, to convince them to surrender.

Other tactics included firing severed human heads from catapults into enemy lines and over city walls to frighten enemy soldiers and citizens and spread diseases in the closed confines of a besieged city. The results were thus not only psychological since in 1347, the Mongols under Janibeg catapulted corpses infected with plague into the trading city of Kaffa in Crimea, making it one of the first known uses of biological warfare.