Babur vs Krishnadevaraya in 16th century

[SwatCat]

Babar was the underdog in all the wars he fought against his uncles in Farganah, in Kabul, in Delhi/Hindustan (1526) as well as in Bengal. Wars in the eastern front were the most difficult ones not only for Babar but also for Humayun, Akber as well as Jahangir. Only during Jahangir the entire Bengal was subdued in around 1605.

Babar's formidable enemy was Sultan Nasrat Shah who gave shelter to the Hindustani Pathans who were forced out of their power base when Babar defeated Sultan Ibrahim Lodi of Delhi in the Battle of 1st Panipath in 1526.

Mahmud Shah, the younger brother of slain Ibrahim, went with all his retinues and Pathan dependents to the Court of Sultan Nasrat Shah of Bengal and betrothed Ibrahim's daughter to him.

Anyway, it is a long history. But, there was a war between the troops of Bengal and Babar's. Babar did not win an outright war. But, the parties agreed to a mutually agreed border.

So, I wonder, if another Raja or Sultan of India in those days had the capability to counter Babar, specially when we see even Rana Sangram Singh could not achieve such a glory. He lost in the Battle of Khanua. Krishnadev Raya cannot possibly counted as a formidable opponent, although history also attests that Bijhapur maintained its independence from Delhi for many years.

At the peak of the Vijayanagara Empire Krishna Devaraya has a strong army compared to Babur. I have mentioned the stats of his army in thread please go through them.

Vijayanagara Empire is a very rich and can afford strong armies and very good defensive forts fitted with canons.

 

[danger007]

Babar was the underdog in all the wars he fought against his uncles in Farganah, in Kabul, in Delhi/Hindustan (1526) as well as in Bengal. Wars in the eastern front were the most difficult ones not only for Babar but also for Humayun, Akber as well as Jahangir. Only during Jahangir the entire Bengal was subdued in around 1605.

Babar's formidable enemy was Sultan Nasrat Shah who gave shelter to the Hindustani Pathans who were forced out of their power base when Babar defeated Sultan Ibrahim Lodi of Delhi in the Battle of 1st Panipath in 1526.

Mahmud Shah, the younger brother of slain Ibrahim, went with all his retinues and Pathan dependents to the Court of Sultan Nasrat Shah of Bengal and betrothed Ibrahim's daughter to him.

Anyway, it is a long history. But, there was a war between the troops of Bengal and Babar's. Babar did not win an outright war. But, the parties agreed to a mutually agreed border.

So, I wonder, if another Raja or Sultan of India in those days had the capability to counter Babar, specially when we see even Rana Sangram Singh could not achieve such a glory. He lost in the Battle of Khanua. Krishnadev Raya cannot possibly be counted as a formidable opponent, although history also attests that Vijapur maintained its independence from Delhi for many years.

No matter how much powerful is Krishna devaraya... you will vote for Babar. because religion... and ego...

 

[eastwatch]

Babur had less than 25,000 soldiers while fighting Lodi whereas Krishnadevaraya used more than 700,000 soldiers in one of the campaigns against Deccan sultanates - siege of Raichur.

But with Krishnadevaraya's 7 times larger force compared to Lodi, Babur with smaller no of men with no Cannon advantage wouldn't have been able to do anything. Babur's army would have been slaughtered in the battle.

Babur was a born warrior. He would not certainly have advanced with a tiny number of force against a formidable opponent.

Babur did not demand the land that was not under Ibrahim Lodi. So, it would have been Krishnadev Narayan who would have to advance to a far away central Hindustan.

So, now the question is was he or his forces were that capable to plan a seize and a war in a far away place? The territories would have been unknown to him and Babur would have already made compromise with other Rajput and Muslim Chieftains in the north, west and east to form an union.

Kabul was already under his control. So, it is not that his troops would remain limited at 15,000 men. Pathans were already coming to work in his military.

So, it is wise not to imagine a war with a static number of 15,000. It could have easily swelled to 150,000 had Babur chosen so.

 

[eastwatch]

No matter how much powerful is Krishna devaraya... you will vote for Babar. because religion... and ego...

Not exactly to tell you frankly. I am talking of history and it is in terms of history only. Note also one thing. The 1st Battle of Panipath was between two Muslims powers. Same is the battle between Babur and Sultan Nasrat Shah of Bengal known as the Battle of Ghagra River in around 1528.

So, how can I choose side when both are Muslims? Note, Babur was a formidable warrior since he was 12 years old. He had to fight against his Muslim uncles, too. He had his personal bravery and his opponents were sitting ducks on the throne. Personal bravery was very important in those days. Anyway, let us talk only about the history.

 

[SwatCat]

Babur was a born warrior. He would not certainly have advanced with a tiny number of force against a formidable opponent.

Babur did not demand the land that was not under Ibrahim Lodi. So, it would have been Krishnadev Narayan who would have to advance to a far away central Hindustan.

So, now the question is was he or forces were that capable to plan a seize and a war in a far away place? The territories would have been unknown to him and Babur would have already made compromise with other Rajput and Muslim Chieftains in the north, west and east to form an union.

Kabul was already under his control. So, it is not that his troops would remain limited at 15,000 men. Pathans were already coming to work in his military.

So, it is wise not to imagine a war with a static number of 15,000. It could have easily swelled to 150,000 had Babur chosen so.

Born Warrior?

That is a relative term, do you know the history and life story of KrishnaDevaraya, it took Timmarasu almost a decade to make Krishnadevaraya a warrior king.

Babur is barbaric in nature but Krishna devaraya is a polished one. Regarding the numbers and all, we cannot estimate and we go by historic accounts.

 

[Sashan]

Krishnadevarayyas territory never covered Kerala IINM.

Northern Kerala - Kolathiri's administration was with the Ikkeri Nayakkars from 14th century to 16th century.

Babur was a born warrior. He would not certainly have advanced with a tiny number of force against a formidable opponent.

Babur did not demand the land that was not under Ibrahim Lodi. So, it would have been Krishnadev Narayan who would have to advance to a far away central Hindustan.

So, now the question is was he or his forces were that capable to plan a seize and a war in a far away place? The territories would have been unknown to him and Babur would have already made compromise with other Rajput and Muslim Chieftains in the north, west and east to form an union.

Kabul was already under his control. So, it is not that his troops would remain limited at 15,000 men. Pathans were already coming to work in his military.

So, it is wise not to imagine a war with a static number of 15,000. It could have easily swelled to 150,000 had Babur chosen so.

Born warrior? See my post #42 - Rest is all speculation.

 

[Vinod2070]

Born Warrior?

That is a relative term, do you know the history and life story of KrishnaDevaraya, it took Timmarasu almost a decade to make Krishnadevaraya a warrior king.

Babur is barbaric in nature but Krishna devaraya is a polished one. Regarding the numbers and all, we cannot estimate and we go by historic accounts.

He was a small time bandit as well for many years, with probably less than 50 fellow bandits after he was kicked out from Samarkand and Farghana by treachery and his family held hostage.

The Uzbek warlord Shaybani Khan, who was on a mission to kill all Timurids including Babar. He forced Babur to give his sister in marriage to allow him to escape from Samarkand.

The whole history of that part of the world is barbaric, cruel and treacherous. Genocides, massacres, rapes, slavery, holding women hostage, these were all part of the game. No honor, no rules just pure barbarity...

Unfortunately Indians were not united at the time to crush these small time fil.thy barbarians.

 

[Slayer786]

There are various takes on it. There were good and bad parts to it but on the whole it was an exploitative system where just 100 odd families were living in fil.thy luxury while the common men were badly exploited. There are accounts that as much as 25% of the GDP was spent by these 100 odd families and of the wretched poor conditions of most of the population.



Ignorance is never a virtue and should not be projected as one.

Just like many in Pakistan may not know of IVC or pre-Islamic glorious history of India and may think it was all jahiliyah before Qasim. That doesn't necessarily make it true.



You have got the response on what the "other guy" did.

Taj Mahal is something that we think of as wholly Indian, built by Indian workers and artisans with Indian money and Indian material.

There is no reason to associate it just with a particular ruler who happened to commission it.

And one building (or some buildings) doesn't change the overall exploitative and many time bigotry filled history of the Mughals.

You are now taking away the credit from the Mughals. The world was always fascinated by the Mughals because of the magnificent architectural marvels like Taj Mahal, Badshahi Mosque, Lahore Fort.
Many books have been written on the Mughals by indian and non-indian writers. There is a kind of nostalgic feelings attached to the empire that is hard to describe.
During their rule they brought innovative military tactics and arts and cultures.

Accomplishments of the Mughal Empire
1526 - 1858
The Mughals' greatest accomplishments took place in their architecture. The Taj Mahal is the most famous building made by the Mughals and it was constructed in 1653. There were also several palaces constructed during the Mughal Empire. The Mughal Empire also prospered in their textile trade. They traded high quality cotton, silk, and wool. The Mughals managed to unify people by combing the Hindu, Muslim, Persian and Indian cultures to make one culture.

Allison Hutton

Now here the western author talks about the taj Mahal as the most famous architecture by the Moghuls.

There were other areas also where the Mughals are credited with as can be read below.


The Express Tribune

A glimpse of the magnificent Mughals
By Gina Hassan
Published: March 3, 2013


Sciences were actively cultivated and significant advances were made in many fields by combining Indian and Islamic scientific traditions. Humayun had his own observatory where astronomical observations were recorded in tables and treatises. Geography, cartography and gazetteers were vital both for administrative purposes and for data used in compiling astronomical tables and calculating prayer times. Mughal physicians produced detailed medical manuals, some of which are on display. They were aware of the ancient Ayurvedic and contemporary European medicine but were greatly influenced by Unani Greco-Arabic tradition, which still flourishes in India and Pakistan today.

Source: The Tribune

Now the other guys reign was only 20 odd years from 1509-1529. I have read his history. He was a magnificent ruler and was a powerful adversary. But after his reign ended, he was a part of history. Now I am sure that there were many empires in India who had great rulers like him for some odd years or so.
But we are talking about the Mughals who ruled in India from 1526-1857 when the last Mughal emperor was sent into exile by the British.

 

[Vinod2070]

You are now taking away the credit from the Mughals. The world was always fascinated by the Mughals because of the magnificent architectural marvels like Taj Mahal, Badshahi Mosque, Lahore Fort.
Many books have been written on the Mughals by indian and non-indian writers. There is a kind of nostalgic feelings attached to the empire that is hard to describe.
During their rule they brought innovative military tactics and arts and cultures.

Now here the western author talks about the taj Mahal as the most famous architecture by the Moghuls.

There were other areas also where the Mughals are credited with as can be read below.

The Express Tribune

There is no intention to "take credit away" from anyone. I am just being more balanced on their bad aspects which in my opinion (based on facts I have mentioned) far outweighed any good.

A few supposedly grand buildings (when they destroyed far more) don't change the fact that the whole system was built on exploitation.

Now the other guys reign was only 20 odd years from 1509-1529. I have read his history. He was a magnificent ruler and was a powerful adversary. But after his reign ended, he was a part of history. Now I am sure that there were many empires in India who had great rulers like him for some odd years or so.
But we are talking about the Mughals who ruled in India from 1526-1857 when the last Mughal emperor was sent into exile by the British.

Well, Mughals had become almost powerless from almost early 1700s.

This is what was written more than 100 years before 1857.

Hukumat-e Shah Alam, Az Dilli ta Palam

The rule of Shah Alam stretches from Delhi to Palam.

Mughal kings used to live at the mercy of the Jats and Marathas at this time. Bahadur Shah was a ruler only in his palace (not even there actually, he was a virtual slave to the British regent for more than a decade before 1857).

Anyway, we can choose to look at this issue differently. There were good aspects and bad. I think of this period mostly as a dark period in our history, something that should not be given more than a foot note.

 

[Charon]

He was a small time bandit as well for many years, with probably less than 50 fellow bandits after he was kicked out from Samarkand and Farghana by treachery and his family held hostage.

The Uzbek warlord Shaybani Khan, who was on a mission to kill all Timurids including Babar. He forced Babur to give his sister in marriage to allow him to escape from Samarkand.

The whole history of that part of the world is barbaric, cruel and treacherous. Genocides, massacres, rapes, slavery, holding women hostage, these were all part of the game. No honor, no rules just pure barbarity...

Unfortunately Indians were not united at the time to crush these small time fil.thy barbarians.

Central Asia has a great and varied culture with beautiful ancient cities like Samarqand or Bukhara. Did you know that Samarqand and Bukahara in modern Uzbekistan were one of the oldest inhabited cities in the world? Timur made Samarkand the capital of the Timrid empire. He rebuilt most of the city after the Mongols conquests and populated it with great artisans. Timur gained a reputation as a patron of arts and Samarkand became the center of Transoxiana. I don't want to blandish Timur. I know that he was a brutal mass murderer who built skull pyramids of Indians but he also contributed much to arts and culture

 

[Vinod2070]

Central Asia has a great and varied culture with beautiful ancient cities like Samarqand or Bukhara. Did you know that Samarqand and Bukahara in modern Uzbekistan were one of the oldest inhabited cities in the world? Timur made Samarkand the capital of the Timrid empire. He rebuilt most of the city after the Mongols conquests and populated it with great artisans. Timur gained a reputation as a patron of arts and Samarkand became the center of Transoxiana. I don't want to blandish Timur. I know that he was a brutal mass murderer who built skull pyramids of Indians but he also contributed much to arts and culture

Well, he committed genocide in India but also in many other parts of the world.

He was responsible for the genocide of 15 million to 20 million people in West Asia, South Asia, Central Asia and Russia, killing roughly 4% of the world population at the time.

I won't comment about how you want to see him, for me he was pure barbaric evil. "Art and culture" don't really go with mass genocides and rapine and pyramids of skulls.

Hitler also looked at himself as an artist. Not how most of the world thinks of him.

 

[INDIC]

Now the other guys reign was only 20 odd years from 1509-1529. I have read his history. He was a magnificent ruler and was a powerful adversary. But after his reign ended, he was a part of history. Now I am sure that there were many empires in India who had great rulers like him for some odd years or so.
But we are talking about the Mughals who ruled in India from 1526-1857 when the last Mughal emperor was sent into exile by the British.

Babur ruled Delhi just for few years. Both Babur and Humayun had negligible contributions in Mughal Empire because of their short period rule, it was Akbar who brought contribution during Mughal rule. Do you know that Babur created a pyramid of Pashtun skulls at Bajaur Fort.

 

[Vinod2070]

Babur ruled Delhi just for few years. Both Babur and Humayun had negligible contributions in Mughal Empire because of their short period rule, it was Akbar who brought contribution during Mughal rule. Do you know that Babur created a pyramid of Pashtun skulls at Bajaur Fort.

I mentioned this in post#10.

The Mughals did the same in many places in India. This is what they used to do to each other where they came from.

Read the history of what the Uzbeks and Timurids did to each other during this time. Pure barbarity...

 

[INDIC]

I mentioned this in post#10.

The Mughals did the same in many places in India. This is what they used to do to each other where they came from.

Read the history of what the Uzbeks and Timurids did to each other during this time. Pure barbarity...

I mentioned about Bajaur, Bajaur lies in FATA in Pakistan.

 

[Vinod2070]

I mentioned about Bajaur, Bajaur lies in FATA in Pakistan.

Yes, it is the same incident. Babur was the ruler of Kabul at that time.

He crossed Khyber and attacked the Afghans in FATA first before proceeding further. They were the first to face his brutality and first whose heads were made into minarets.