Azerbaijan Defence Programs & Military Development

[xenon54 out]

let me explain karabakh than after that i will explain turk-rus friendship

Bro i know pretty much about Karabakh and the regional goepolitcs but im interested to see your view.
And about Rus-Turk friendship, are you serious? The only thing Russians did to Turks is invading their countrys, ruling them, assimilating them, massacring them and deporting them.
You dont need enemys with such friends.

@Ahiska you as an victim of russian deportation your input is needed here pls.

 

[rmi5]

Correct me if im wrong but isnt Russia the main reason why you cant take back your lands since decades?

Yes, That's why they are important for us.

Why would they start supporting you or at least giving green light to attack Armenia, their strategic partner where they have several military bases exactly for the purpose to counter Azerbaijani military in case of war, after you built pipelines to Europe and become their rival in supplying Europe? TBH i dont get the logic here.

The logic is to give them reasons that 1) they would no longer achieve much by backing Armenia(for example when we build pipelines with the capacity to transfer all Central Asian energy and show them that Armenia has not been able to stop the process of transferring Central Asian energy, Armenia would be a burnt card, and no useful anymore) 2)We would offer them more and compensate for their losses if they refrain from meddling.

You shouldnt compare Iran with Armenia since its in Russian interest to back up Armenia to break the Western/Turkic axis in caucasus, even if you say Azerbaijan will have a balanced relations, Azerbaijan will mantain its strategic partnership with Turkey as its biggest supporter which is a NATO member, as you said Russians arent stupid, if they let fall Armenia then they can say good bye to their influence in caucasus.

Iran is only a Russian tool to bother west and its interests, and nothing more. US refrained to station a full anti missile system in Eastern Europe as it was planned and gave them permission to join WTO, and Russia gave the green light to screw Iran.
Now we can rephrase the above paragraph in this form:
Armenia is only a Russian tool to bother Azerbaijan, and Turkey and their interests, and nothing more. Now, we need to ...

Not to mention that once the Karabakh issue is solved the borders to Armenia would be opened on booth sides which would drag Armenia in the arms of West because Russians ''backstabbed'' them, none of these is in Russias interest otherwise the conflict would have been solved years ago.

No, it won't happen in a moment, for similar reasons that Iran is not in Western arms as we speak now. BTW, Armenia is no useful for west nor Russia or any other country other than being useful for one reason which is bothering Azerbaijan and Turkey. Economically speaking, Armenia inherently has zero resources, old population, no cheap labor, no access to any sea, very small population hence zero economic importance for Russia or West leaders to even think about her for 1 minute.

 

[xenon54 out]

The logic is to give them reasons that 1) they would no longer achieve much by backing Armenia(for example when we build pipelines with the capacity to transfer all Central Asian energy and show them that Armenia has not been able to stop the process of transferring Central Asian energy, Armenia would be a burnt card, and no useful anymore) 2)We would offer them more and compensate for their losses if they refrain from meddling.

Thats a risky plan and for me no justification to trust Russia.

Iran is only a Russian tool to bother west and its interests, and nothing more. US refrained to station a full anti missile system in Eastern Europe as it was planned and gave them permission to join WTO, and Russia gave the green light to screw Iran.
Now we can rephrase the above paragraph in this form:
Armenia is only a Russian tool to bother Azerbaijan, and Turkey and their interests, and nothing more. Now, we need to ...

Armenia is the key country for Russian influence in Caucasus, there is no Russia friendly country left there except them.

No, it won't happen in a moment, for similar reasons that Iran is not in Western hands as we speak now. BTW, Armenia is no useful for west nor Russia or any other country other than being useful for one reason which is bothering Azerbaijan and Turkey. Armenia has zero resources, old population, no cheap labor, no access to any sea, very small population hence zero economic importance for Russia or West leaders to even think about her for 1 minute.

Yeah sure but Iran screwed its relation to west in revolution and it wont be repaired as long as we hear ''death to America'' from their goverments, Armenia in contrary has a huge lobby in USA and France, i guarantee you they would run to west like a prostitute switching to another pimp.

 

[rmi5]

Bro i know pretty much about Karabakh and the regional goepolitcs but im interested to see your view.
And about Rus-Turk friendship, are you serious? The only thing Russians did to Turks is invading their countrys, ruling them, assimilating them, massacring them and deporting them.
You dont need enemys with such friends.

@Ahiska you as an victim of russian deportation your input is needed here pls.

We are not talking about being best buddies with Russia.
Remember how France and UK fought against each other for more than 100 years. remember how Germans fought against France and UK in two world wars. remember that how USA nuked Japanese. With being emotional, all of these countries should vaporize each other 10 times for doing such atrocities against each other. But, all of them have friendship, NATO, EU, ... together. The same should happen for Russians and Turks and that's what it meant by friendship.

 

[asena_great]

Correct me if im wrong but isnt Russia the main reason why you cant take back your lands since decades? Why would they start supporting you or at least giving green light to attack Armenia, their strategic partner where they have several military bases exactly for the purpose to counter Azerbaijani military in case of war, after you built pipelines to Europe and become their rival in supplying Europe? TBH i dont get the logic here.

what you are saying is true let me explain the russian problems

1- unlike turkey they are landed country they have problem in global trading baltic sea is closed to them black same as black sea they dont have real access to black sea baltic and indian ocean they have only far east asian sea

2- energy price delay the soviet collapse russian in few years will face same thing the gas price is their vessel in neck so they need to keep the gas price in certain level (idk the exact time but they will face this in 2035 i guess )

3- russia is 150 million turks also are about 300 million but chines are 1 trillion pop they have common interest with us

ok now lets go back to azerbijan

Correct me if im wrong but isnt Russia the main reason why you cant take back your lands since decades? Why would they start supporting you or at least giving green light to attack Armenia, their strategic partner where they have several military bases exactly for the purpose to counter Azerbaijani military in case of war, after you built pipelines to Europe and become their rival in supplying Europe? TBH i dont get the logic here.

all of this for stopping turkic countries to get independet income or political include over European countries and they want us as market (forced markets )
as u say they , u are right but what if we break their influence ? should we make the life hell for them ?? they will do the same and what good is that ??

You shouldnt compare Iran with Armenia since its in Russian interest to back up Armenia to break the Western/Turkic axis in caucasus, even if you say Azerbaijan will have a balanced relations, Azerbaijan will mantain its strategic partnership with Turkey as its biggest supporter which is a NATO member, as you said Russians arent stupid, if they let fall Armenia then they can say good bye to their influence in caucasus.

once turkic union break russian chains we must make normal relations with them it's stupid to make such powerful enemy they are doing this cuz we dont have any real leverage but one we pass this stage they will be no longer a thread (unless we go for revenge which we get nothing but misery from it ) it's our common intrest to have good plan about gas price in EU with russian , we must play with both russia and EU

Not to mention that once the Karabakh issue is solved the borders to Armenia would be opened on booth sides which would drag Armenia in the arms of West because Russians ''backstabbed'' them, none of these is in Russias interest otherwise the conflict would have been solved years ago.

once karabakh resolved ??? lol they will be far smaller than that to be a threat to us u are not following me in turkic union issue

 

[xenon54 out]

We are not talking about being best buddies with Russia.
Remember how France and UK fought with each other for more than 100 years. remember how Germans fought with France and UK in two world wars. remember that how USA nuked Japanese. With being emotional, all of these countries should vaporize each other 10 times for doing such atrocities against each other. But, all of them have friendship, NATO, EU, ... together. The same should happen for Russians and Turks.

All these countrys have about the same power and none of these is trying to control another one, which isnt the case in Russia-Turkic countrys relations.

what you are saying is true let me explain the russian problems

1- unlike turkey they are landed country they have problem in global trading baltic sea is closed to them black same as black sea they dont have real access to black sea baltic and indian ocean they have only far east asian sea

2- energy price delay the soviet collapse russian in few years will face same thing the gas price is their vessel in neck so they need to keep the gas price in certain level (idk the exact time but they will face this in 2035 i guess )

3- russia is 150 million turks also are about 300 million but chines are 1 trillion pop they have common interest with us

ok now lets go back to azerbijan



all of this for stopping turkic countries to get independet income or political include over European countries and they want us as market (forced markets )
as u say they , u are right but what if we break their influence ? should we make the life hell for them ?? they will do the same and what good is that ??


once turkic union break russian chains we must make normal relations with them it's stupid to make such powerful enemy they are doing this cuz we dont have any real leverage but one we pass this stage they will be no longer a thread (unless we go for revenge which we get nothing but misery from it ) it's our common intrest to have good plan about gas price in EU with russian , we must play with both russia and EU



once karabakh resolved ??? lol they will be far smaller than that to be a threat to us u are not following me in turkic union issue

Bro im not saying make Russia your enemy, why should you? The problem is you guys are talking about a union and friendship with the two biggest Turks slaughterers Russia and China, a union with them will make you their pawn and they will rule you again, pls look at history and tell me im wrong.

BTW: i didnt say Armenia will be a threat to us, not even close, i said Russia would lose Armenia and with them their influence in Caucasus.

 

[rmi5]

Thats a risky plan and for me no justification to trust Russia.

only a fool can trust on a world power We are not going to trust them, nor anyone else. We need to be like wolves and even sleep in nights when our eyes are open. That's how you deal with world powers, specially Russians

Armenia is the key country for Russian influence in Caucasus, there is no Russia friendly country left there except them.

Russia has no friends, except for bilarus, and cuba, maybe. rest of countries are seen based on the interest point of view.

Yeah sure but Iran screwed its relation to west in revolution and it wont be repaired as long as we hear ''death to America'' from their goverments, Armenia in contrary has a huge lobby in USA and France, i guarantee you they would run to west like a prostitute switching to another pimp.

Iran has also a big lobby in USA. the Iranian lobby, which are western oil companies are 100 times stronger than Armenians lobby. Anyway, as I said before, Armenia, inherently has no importance for west nor Russia. she has only one importance which is bothering us, and nothing more.

All these countrys have about the same power and none of these is trying to control another one, which isnt the case in Russia-Turkic countrys relations.

No, they don't. from strength point of view, Clearly USA > Russia > Rest of them. But, they need to cooperate since its in their interests to cooperate than confront each other.

 

[xenon54 out]

@rmi5 @asena_great
Ok lets sum it up a little bit.

You guys are saying that Russia will one day let down Armenia and give Azerbaijan green light to attack them and we could go for a alliance with Russia-China block.
My answer is, i think this will never happen.

Another question, what do you guys think about democracy in Turkic countrys, would you support the idea?

 

[asena_great]

What do you mean with openly facing Russia? I didnt said you should go to war with them

they have certain red line like selling gas to eu or makeing turkic union make close tide with turkey or west if u cross them they will throw their lavage on u

anyways the recent developements show that Azerbaijan is interested in a Partnership with NATO

ofc it must be but if we could make our own Partnership it will be far better in this stage they will stay away from russia

And the Turkic Alliance with Russia and China you are mentioning will be without Turkey since we are in another camp as them.

they is no russian camp or chines camp you misunderstood me turkey cant go far beyond than reginal power the big boys wont let it and if u look at world with turkey's glass u wont get what i meaning imagine a union similar to EU between all turkic country with this glass u will see the 3 world power neighbor to each other russia chian and the turks , do u see the relations between russian and china ? ? we must make similar relations with them like i said we must play between east and west

in the end remember we are in turkic camp and we do what is in our interest

 

[telkon]

Armenia is the key country for Russian influence in Caucasus, there is no Russia friendly country left there except them.

armenia is a landlocked, dried up (economically and industrially), poor country surrounded by enemies from all sides. it has 0 power projection over its neighbours. russia has alliance with it just to screw with azerbaijan which is close to turkey, and thus nato.

i think it's in russia's best interest to end this conflict. that way, they'd be able to include armenia into eurasian union, customs union, and i think the same can be said about azerbaijan. the outcome of such move would give russia immense power in caucasus (read, pain in the *** for turkey and nato). in case of all-out war, russia will surely side with armenia and thus lose all the influence, economic gains etc. it gained in azerbaijan. as a result fo this 20-some year conflict, russia can't develop economic projects that would include both parties and possibly iran. also, as a result of this conflict, azerbaijan sided with turkey and nato and in likely struggle between west and russia, it'll side with west.

 

[rmi5]

@rmi5 @asena_great
Ok lets sum it up a little bit.

You guys are saying that Russia will one day let down Armenia and give Azerbaijan green light to attack them and we could go for a alliance with Russia China block.
My answer is, i think this will never happen.

It will not automatically happen. we need to do a lot of stuff to make it happen.

Another question, what do you guys think about democracy in Turkic countrys, would you support the idea?

Theoretically and from morality point of view, I would say, yes, why not?
but, practically, I would say it depends. We can distinguish two type of Turkic countries. 1) more religious ones like Turkey, and Uzbekistan. 2) more secular ones like Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan. For none religious ones, in which they have less than 20-30% religious people, I would have no objection with a democratic system. But, for religious ones, with higher than 50% religious people, democracy can only be practiced under severe observation of an ultra-secular controlling army, which would be loyal to secularism and do a coup if Islamists gain too much power.

 

[atatwolf]

Not development but to double underline it

Turkey will always support Azerbaijan, FM says

Baku, Azerbaijan, August 9
By Rufiz Hafizoglu - Trend:

Turkey will always support Azerbaijan, Turkey's Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said during a phone conversation with his Azerbaijani counterpart Elmar Mammadyarov, Turkish Anadolu agency reported.

Turkish foreign minister also stressed that the escalation of tension on the Armenian-Azerbaijani contact line is the result of the impact of the Ukrainian crisis on the South Caucasus region.

Armenian armed forces launched a diversion on the night of July 31-August 1, when reconnaissance and sabotage groups tried to cross the contact line of the Azerbaijani and Armenian troops through the territories of Aghdam and Terter regions.

Armenia's reconnaissance and sabotage group attacked the positions of Azerbaijani armed forces in the direction of Azerbaijan's Aghdam and Agdere regions on the night of August 1-2. Azerbaijan managed to locate the group and the sabotage attempt was prevented.

During the recent days, Azerbaijani positions have been constantly under attack, and 13 servicemen have been killed, several more were wounded. Armenian side suffered more losses while trying to hide this fact from the public.

The conflict between the two South Caucasus countries began in 1988 when Armenia made territorial claims against Azerbaijan. As a result of the ensuing war, in 1992 Armenian armed forces occupied 20 percent of Azerbaijan, including the Nagorno-Karabakh region and seven surrounding districts.

The two countries signed a ceasefire agreement in 1994. The co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group, Russia, France and the U.S. are currently holding peace negotiations.

Armenia has not yet implemented the U.N. Security Council's four resolutions on the liberation of the Nagorno-Karabakh and the surrounding regions.
Turkey will always support Azerbaijan, FM says - Trend.Az

 

[xenon54 out]

armenia is a landlocked, dried up (economically and industrially), poor country surrounded by enemies from all sides. it has 0 power projection over its neighbours. russia has alliance with it just to screw with azerbaijan which is close to turkey, and thus nato.

i think it's in russia's best interest to end this conflict. that way, they'd be able to include armenia into eurasian union, customs union, and i think the same can be said about azerbaijan. the outcome of such move would give russia immense power in caucasus (read, pain in the *** for turkey and nato). in case of all-out war, russia will surely side with armenia and thus lose all the influence, economic gains etc. it gained in azerbaijan. as a result fo this 20-some year conflict, russia can't develop economic projects that would include both parties and possibly iran. also, as a result of this conflict, azerbaijan sided with turkey and nato and in likely struggle between west and russia, it'll side with west.

Everybody is saying the same here, then one should explain me why Russia doesnt end the conflict if its in their interest?

Theoretically and from morality point of view, I would say, yes, why not?
but, practically, I would say it depends. We can distinguish two type of Turkic countries. 1) more religious ones like Turkey, and Uzbekistan. 2) more secular ones like Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan. For none religious ones, in which they have less than 20-30% religious people, I would have no objection with a democratic system. But, for religious ones, with higher than 50% religious people, democracy can only be practiced under severe observation of an ultra-secular controlling army, which would be loyal to secularism and do a coup if Islamists gain too much power.

Apart from Usbekistan which has beef with everyone anyway the other ones could become democratic, now the question is who doenst want them to become democratic? I think we all know who is influencing the Turkic Dictators from Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, and there goes your Eurasian Union.

 

[usernameless]

Then, I would say that you don't know Russians. We don't need Russians to do anything in our favor. we need the green light to attack Armenia, and Russia refrains from Support. Russians are extremely smart people and would choose their decisions solely based on their interests.
We need to get independent from them and show them that we have upper-hand, by doing projects like building pipelines and control transferring gas from central asia as @asena_great said, then we need to show them that we don't want confrontation and we do want cooperation and show them that they will have interests in dealing with us. Then they would backstab(if you want to call it backstabbing) Armenia, exactly like how they backstabbed Iran. You need to know how to play the game with Russians. Americans know how to play with Russia, and as we speak, Russia has gave green light to USA to screw Iran, which was, and is, Russia's so called friend.

though what you said makes sense, it seems Russia just want to prolong the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan (what if Russia integrates piss poor Armenia one day? we will face Russia directly in regard to NK) for its own benefits and you also shouldnt forget that it is Russia that doesnt want this trans-Caspian pipeline between Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan. As you said, it's due their own interest. we will have to be really lucky if we want Russia to sit back and allow Turkic countries to develop strong ties among them, only to push out excessive Russian influence (militarily, politically, economically) as much as possible from the Turkic world later on (that's one of the aims of a Turkic union, isn't it?). in my humble opinion, Russia is already just toying with the Turkic world, doing what it pleases with minimal resistance, and yet we, Turkics, should be the ones to put our trust and goodwill in the Russians? again, some things you said makes sense, but we shouldn't be naive. I wouldnt want to tag along, put my trust and depend on a 'partner/friend' who has a record of ditching partners, doing injustice against Turkics and who also wants the Turkic to remain dependent on him. I would prefer the long road; developing Turkic world while we keep balanced relations with US, EU, Russia and China. at a point in the future we should have the leverage to switch camps If one of them goes aggressive on us. just i dont believe that we can reach the goal of Turkic union if we put our trust in Russia to get to that goal.

 

[rmi5]

Everybody is saying the same here, then one should explain me why Russia doesnt end the conflict if its in their interest?

Because we have not build those pipelines, unions, ... an also have not gave them enough reasons to be sure about their share of interests with cooperating with us.

Apart from Usbekistan which has beef with everyone anyway the other ones could become democratic, now the question is who doenst want them to become democratic? I think we all know who is influencing the Turkic Dictators from Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, and there goes your Eurasian Union.

This who, are turkic people who need to achieve democracies.
and after that, world powers, including Russia, who prefer to have less trouble in dealing with a dictator than democracies.
BTW, baltic republics(with being in the same situation as us or Ukrine) are democratic, and Russians could not stop them, since their local population was truly determined for a democracy