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Average Pakistani Soldier

A Pakistani soldier generally has a very high moral as his training happens in a Islamic background. As the syllabus contains parts of Islamic wars history including histories of Companians of the Prophet (PBUH) which is the moral booster for them as well as the slogan given to them is: Iman, Taqwa & Jihad the essence of Islamic Ideology.
Even the Turkish, Syrian or Egyptian Armed forces also can not match their moral when you comapare their training background.
 
A Pakistani soldier generally has a very high moral as his training happens in a Islamic background. As the syllabus contains parts of Islamic wars history including histories of Companians of the Prophet (PBUH) which is the moral booster for them as well as the slogan given to them is: Iman, Taqwa & Jihad the essence of Islamic Ideology.
Even the Turkish, Syrian or Egyptian Armed forces also can not match their moral when you comapare their training background.

I would suggest that you have no idea about "morale" and the rigors of combat. Morale comes from knowing that you can defeat your enemies. This comes through training and equipment rather than religious thought. The Turks for example have excellent esprit de corp and believe me you would not want to face them when they are pissed off.

So try not to use religion as a means to assert military superiority. It holds no water.
 
I am not under mining the neccessity of training and equipment, specially the hitech ones in todays warfares but its the Iman of a muslim soldiers which proves most important factor during combatting the "Big or Super Powers" e.g. Omar Mukhtar against Italian Imperialists, Salah-hud-din against the Crusaders, Tariq Bin Ziyad against the Spanish on their own soil with the means of returns (Ships) burnt so that muslim army must think about the victory or martyrdom nothing else. Imam Shamil against the Mighty Russians, Tipu Sultan against the British, Khalid Bin Walid aginst the Roman and Iranin Empires the two Super Powers of the time and lastly Afghan Mujahids against the Russians. These are a few example of wars which were really the tests of Imans of muslim warriors. There was no match in all of these wars fo the two armies.
 
A very interesting thought!

Now, all one has to do is getting hold of Imams and setting them loose!

The world will be in the pocket!

Read each war in detail and see what factors played a role, both for the winner and the loser.

No war can be replicated and while leadership is essential, it is not the only factor!
 
A very interesting thought!

Now, all one has to do is getting hold of Imams and setting them loose!

The world will be in the pocket!

Read each war in detail and see what factors played a role, both for the winner and the loser.

No war can be replicated and while leadership is essential, it is not the only factor!

LOL, I am talking about "Iman" and not "Imam" as you are referring to.
As a non-muslim this mistake is possible, but I was talking about Iman, a muslim's belief and faith in Allah the only God of this universe. Their faith in life after death which keep them standing firm in any war like situation and make them ready for martyrdom.
 
Sorry for the error.

I am aware of what is Iman, but then the error is because your posts are religion centric with what appears a bit way out when you connect it with the realities of the world and hence I reckon it was auto-suggestion at work!
 
Since I have zero military experience, except for my NCC training (which I am not going to pass of as "military training") to boost my FSC score, I was wondering what Army regulars do to stay physically and mentally conditioned when not deployed. Are there regular training exercises (marksmanship etc) outside of "war games"? What do Army regulars do when not deployed or not training?
 
In all armies, troops go through training every day which contains lessons that cover the basic weapons, tactics, firing, PT and other aspects that is required for combat.

In the evening they plays games so as to build up team spirit.

Some troops, who are not in the training, do the ceremonials and unit administrative duties.

Seniors in the troop hierarchy also attend Tactical Exercises Without Troops (TEWTs).

Officers attend Wargames as and when they are organised.

Units and formation test their skills honed in what is known as Exercises (full scale mock war).
 
In all armies, troops go through training every day which contains lessons that cover the basic weapons, tactics, firing, PT and other aspects that is required for combat.

In the evening they plays games so as to build up team spirit.

Some troops, who are not in the training, do the ceremonials and unit administrative duties.

Seniors in the troop hierarchy also attend Tactical Exercises Without Troops (TEWTs).

Officers attend Wargames as and when they are organised.

Units and formation test their skills honed in what is known as Exercises (full scale mock war).

Aahh... Thank you. That was quite informative.
 
In all armies, troops go through training every day which contains lessons that cover the basic weapons, tactics, firing, PT and other aspects that is required for combat.

In the evening they plays games so as to build up team spirit.

Some troops, who are not in the training, do the ceremonials and unit administrative duties.

Seniors in the troop hierarchy also attend Tactical Exercises Without Troops (TEWTs).

Officers attend Wargames as and when they are organised.

Units and formation test their skills honed in what is known as Exercises (full scale mock war).

All of those except the ones on fatigue duties...:azn:

PT in the morning and games in the evening is the usual routine for most active units. Although I must say this depends on the CO and the officers within the units. Some are very much on the ball, others take lead from their CO and other officers in the units.
 
I am not under mining the neccessity of training and equipment, specially the hitech ones in todays warfares but its the Iman of a muslim soldiers which proves most important factor during combatting the "Big or Super Powers" e.g. Omar Mukhtar against Italian Imperialists, Salah-hud-din against the Crusaders, Tariq Bin Ziyad against the Spanish on their own soil with the means of returns (Ships) burnt so that muslim army must think about the victory or martyrdom nothing else. Imam Shamil against the Mighty Russians, Tipu Sultan against the British, Khalid Bin Walid aginst the Roman and Iranin Empires the two Super Powers of the time and lastly Afghan Mujahids against the Russians. These are a few example of wars which were really the tests of Imans of muslim warriors. There was no match in all of these wars fo the two armies.

I am also a muslim and believe in Iman; implying absolute certainty that one's faith is True. No doubt this helps "esprit de corps' and also a source of courage; but using the examples in this thread gives a false impression as if all you need is Iman which is the deciding factor.

It is the generalization in the extreme. I will be brutal and analyze what is quoted in the above post.

Salahuddin was never able to defeat the Third Crusade. Richard re-captured Acre in 1191 and consolidated the Crusader states founded after the first crusade. Salahuddin failed to take back Acre, Antioch and Tripoli. All the three Crusader States were finally captured by the Mumlukes of Egypt nearly 100 years after Salahuddin. This does not in any way diminish Salahuddin's capability as a war leader. But one must understand that Muslim forces, mostly consisting of lightly armed cavalry, despite being larger in number, ware not in a position to force decisive victory on the heavily armed Crusader Knights and foot soldiers especially when fortified and able to receive supplies from the sea. It was a battle between mobility and brute force. Occasionally at places such as at Hattin in 1187; when thru his superior generalship; Salahuddin managed to lure Christian forces out of their stronghold. Salahuddin was able to prevail. Eventually a stalemate and finally a truce resulted which gave free access of Jerusalem to the Christians.

Tariq bin Ziad crossed over to Spain in 711 with some 10 -12,000 Berbers and defeated the Visigoth King Roderic at the battle of Guadalete was, due to his superior generalship. Muslim conquest of spain was only possible when Musa bin Nasir himself arrived a year later with another 25-30,000 troops. If Iman was the only ingredient, how come infidel Christians were able to slowly recapture all the Spain (albeit it took them 700 years) .

Khalid bin Walid was a general 'par excellence'. He was responsible for the disaster that befell muslims at the battle of Uhad. After conversion to Islam, he used the same ability to defeat the Romans. But the tactics were always the same, " Surprize". Besides, it is wrong to compare Muslim army of 636 AD with today's Muslims. There were 100 veterans of the Battle of Badar in that force. The purification of self which took place due to the companionship of the holy Prophet ( PBUH) is no longer possible.

Tipu Sultan is a bad example to give. No doubt very brave, he never defeated the English and was himself defeated and his state destroyed. It was his father Haider Ali, who was a far better general. Tipu did well in the second Mysore war which was commanded by Haider Ali. The wars fought by Tipu himself, the third and 4th Mysore wars were disasters. Besides, both Haider Ali and Tipu were very secular in their outlook and their armies consisted of a lot of non muslim soldiers. It was a battle between natives and foreigner, Iman or relgion had very little to do.

Afghan Mujahids were no where until such time that they were supplied by Stingers to counter the Soviet gunships. If their Iman was so great, how come they needed the great Satan ( US) help and why they were at each others throats as soon as Soviets left. More Afghans were killed and attrocities committed by the mujahideen groups when fighting with each other. Kabul suffered more devastation when bombarded by Hikmatyar's Jamaat Islami than during soviet occupation. Doesnt Iman forbid killing other muslims.

Purpose of all this is that it is about time we woke up and ignore the propaganda by the mullah that Iman is all that is required. It is not; it is no doubt an essential ingredient but battles are won and lost because of conditions on the battlfield. Hard work, training, military equipment and most of all quality of leadership are the prime factors. If Iman alone was enough, how come Aurangzeb - most puritanical of all of the great Moghals, with tremondous resources at his disposal was unable to eliminate Shivaji, despite being at it for 15 years. Whereas Mughals under wine drinking Babur could beat a far larger muslim army of Ibrahim Lodhi at Panipat. Does any one doubt the Iman of last Abbassid Caliph Al Mustasim, why were the Muslim annihilated by the infidel Halaku in 1258 and Baghdad sacked?? The same happened to Baghdad again in March 1917 when Ottoman Caliph's army was defeated by the British infidel Sir Frederick Maude.

It is living in a fool's paradise to quote examples where Muslims did well but ignore hundreds of other cases where Muslims forces were defeated. It is a naive notion in the extreme that even though we ban Polio drops as unislamic, our Iman alone will defeat the rest of the world.

Such nonsense is brainwashing today's muslims. We have to achieve SCIENTIFIC and TECHNOLOGICAL excellence. Only then and armed with Iman we can defeat the world, else we will forever be whinning about conspiracies and blaming rest of the world for our misfortunes.
 
Purpose of all this is that it is about time we woke up and ignore the propaganda by the mullah that Iman is all that is required. It is not; it is no doubt an essential ingredient but battles are won and lost because of conditions on the battlfield. Hard work, training, military equipment and most of all quality of leadership are the prime factors. If Iman alone was enough, how come Aurangzeb - most puritanical of all of the great Moghals, with tremondous resources at his disposal was unable to eliminate Shivaji, despite being at it for 15 years. Whereas Mughals under wine drinking Babur could beat a far larger muslim army of Ibrahim Lodhi at Panipat. Does any one doubt the Iman of last Abbassid Caliph Al Mustasim, why were the Muslim annihilated by the infidel Halaku in 1258 and Baghdad sacked?? The same happened to Baghdad again in March 1917 when Ottoman Caliph's army was defeated by the British infidel Sir Frederick Maude.

It is living in a fool's paradise to quote examples where Muslims did well but ignore hundreds of other cases where Muslims forces were defeated. It is a naive notion in the extreme that even though we ban Polio drops as unislamic, our Iman alone will defeat the rest of the world.

Such nonsense is brainwashing today's muslims. We have to achieve SCEINTIFIC and TECHNOLOGICAL excellence. Only then and armed with Iman we can defeat the world, else we will forever be whinning about conspiracies and blaming rest of the world for our misfortunes.


Very neat post Niaz Sir!
 
I am also a muslim and believe in Iman; implying absolute certainty that one's faith is True. No doubt this helps "esprit de corps' and also a source of courage; but using the examples in this thread gives a false impression as if all you need is Iman which is the deciding factor.

I have wrote again and again that the best training or the best weaponary is a must and as Allah says in Quran,"And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.(Sura Anfal)
So I am not denying this facts. However you can't compare the Pakistani soldiers with present day Turkish soldiers when the standard is "Iman" as they are undergoing a training empty of growing the love of Allah and his Prophet(PBUH) and submitting oneself to the will of Allah. Here they differ greatly and nobody can deny that.

Afghan Mujahids were no where until such time that they were supplied by Stingers to counter the Soviet gunships. If their Iman was so great, how come they needed the great Satan ( US) help and why they were at each others throats as soon as Soviets left. More Afghans were killed and attrocities committed by the mujahideen groups when fighting with each other. Kabul suffered more devastation when bombarded by Hikmatyar's Jamaat Islami than during soviet occupation. Doesnt Iman forbid killing other muslims.
For the first 2 years the Mujaheedins were on their own and no US or Western help was reaching them and they were shooting down the aircrafts and helicopter gunships with AAAs etc. The great Satan was also itself in need of them to defeat and destroy its staunch rival.
You can't undermine their sacrifices against such a huge power of the time.
You can't describe their infighting as the part of their iman it was the "weakness of Iman that they divided themselves in different ethnic groups and that also with all the conspiracies as some of them were right and some wrong when the infighting started. Yes the destruction of Kabul was huge but you can't compare 1.6 million deaths during the Russian devastation of Afghanistan to this civil war. Complete destruction of whole villages alongwith their population as a collective punishment for assisting the Mujaheedins.
 
I am also a muslim and believe in Iman; implying absolute certainty that one's faith is True. No doubt this helps "esprit de corps' and also a source of courage; but using the examples in this thread gives a false impression as if all you need is Iman which is the deciding factor.

It is the generalization in the extreme. I will be brutal and analyze what is quoted in the above post.

Salahuddin was never able to defeat the Third Crusade. Richard re-captured Acre in 1191 and consolidated the Crusader states founded after the first crusade. Salahuddin failed to take back Acre, Antioch and Tripoli. All the three Crusader States were finally captured by the Mumlukes of Egypt nearly 100 years after Salahuddin. This does not in any way diminish Salahuddin's capability as a war leader. But one must understand that Muslim forces, mostly consisting of lightly armed cavalry, despite being larger in number, ware not in a position to force decisive victory on the heavily armed Crusader Knights and foot soldiers especially when fortified and able to receive supplies from the sea. It was a battle between mobility and brute force. Occasionally at places such as at Hattin in 1187; when thru his superior generalship; Salahuddin managed to lure Christian forces out of their stronghold. Salahuddin was able to prevail. Eventually a stalemate and finally a truce resulted which gave free access of Jerusalem to the Christians.

Tariq bin Ziad crossed over to Spain in 711 with some 10 -12,000 Berbers and defeated the Visigoth King Roderic at the battle of Guadalete was, due to his superior generalship. Muslim conquest of spain was only possible when Musa bin Nasir himself arrived a year later with another 25-30,000 troops. If Iman was the only ingredient, how come infidel Christians were able to slowly recapture all the Spain (albeit it took them 700 years) .

Khalid bin Walid was a general 'par excellence'. He was responsible for the disaster that befell muslims at the battle of Uhad. After conversion to Islam, he used the same ability to defeat the Romans. But the tactics were always the same, " Surprize". Besides, it is wrong to compare Muslim army of 636 AD with today's Muslims. There were 100 veterans of the Battle of Badar in that force. The purification of self which took place due to the companionship of the holy Prophet ( PBUH) is no longer possible.

Tipu Sultan is a bad example to give. No doubt very brave, he never defeated the English and was himself defeated and his state destroyed. It was his father Haider Ali, who was a far better general. Tipu did well in the second Mysore war which was commanded by Haider Ali. The wars fought by Tipu himself, the third and 4th Mysore wars were disasters. Besides, both Haider Ali and Tipu were very secular in their outlook and their armies consisted of a lot of non muslim soldiers. It was a battle between natives and foreigner, Iman or relgion had very little to do.

Afghan Mujahids were no where until such time that they were supplied by Stingers to counter the Soviet gunships. If their Iman was so great, how come they needed the great Satan ( US) help and why they were at each others throats as soon as Soviets left. More Afghans were killed and attrocities committed by the mujahideen groups when fighting with each other. Kabul suffered more devastation when bombarded by Hikmatyar's Jamaat Islami than during soviet occupation. Doesnt Iman forbid killing other muslims.

Purpose of all this is that it is about time we woke up and ignore the propaganda by the mullah that Iman is all that is required. It is not; it is no doubt an essential ingredient but battles are won and lost because of conditions on the battlfield. Hard work, training, military equipment and most of all quality of leadership are the prime factors. If Iman alone was enough, how come Aurangzeb - most puritanical of all of the great Moghals, with tremondous resources at his disposal was unable to eliminate Shivaji, despite being at it for 15 years. Whereas Mughals under wine drinking Babur could beat a far larger muslim army of Ibrahim Lodhi at Panipat. Does any one doubt the Iman of last Abbassid Caliph Al Mustasim, why were the Muslim annihilated by the infidel Halaku in 1258 and Baghdad sacked?? The same happened to Baghdad again in March 1917 when Ottoman Caliph's army was defeated by the British infidel Sir Frederick Maude.

It is living in a fool's paradise to quote examples where Muslims did well but ignore hundreds of other cases where Muslims forces were defeated. It is a naive notion in the extreme that even though we ban Polio drops as unislamic, our Iman alone will defeat the rest of the world.

Such nonsense is brainwashing today's muslims. We have to achieve SCIENTIFIC and TECHNOLOGICAL excellence. Only then and armed with Iman we can defeat the world, else we will forever be whinning about conspiracies and blaming rest of the world for our misfortunes.

Good post!

Thus the slogan in the Pakistan Army "Josh say nahee, hosh say". Iman and Jazba has its use but typically in short durations or in bursts of emotions at the right moment.

In my opinion, religious inspiration always gives you focus. It drives the ethics for hardwork, dedication and focus. To write off Imaan as a secondary thing is also wrong. Most of those who are actually properly religiously inclined (instead of paying lip service to it like myself) drive themselves harder. There is also a very sound tradition of the prophet which is vastly ignored by us Muslims of the day where he (pbuh) had said, "Allah has ordained excellence in everything.". This is advice enough for those who follow him..our problem is that we follow things selectively which makes us a motley band of so-called Muslims without direction but with a lot of pent-up frustration.

Very aptly displayed in the School of Infantry and Tactics along with Ayaahs of the Quran, "Sweat saves blood, blood saves life, brain saves both".
 
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