Austria Retiring 15 New Eurofighter Typhoon Should Paf buys them for airsuperiority

[war&peace]

they don't have Enemy at their borders and eminent need of jets

That's interesting. It should be checked how much of the airframe's life is left. Even 15 EFT can make a significant difference.

 

[Avicenna]

Yes, the initial version was air superiority only.

The upgrades MIGHT be cheaper if you had the facilities in the country. As things stand, they will be done in Europe where labor is more expensive. And they will price it knowingly so you feel compelled to buy brand new jets.

Seriously, I would rather have a very thorough testing phase before we even think of investing in EFT - even Tranche 3. All indicators point at overpriced, under performing, white elephant.

Your kidding right? By all counts Typhoon is 2nd only to the F-22 in the air to air mission. As a multi role platform not sure how it ultimately compares to Rafale. But regardless, both represent two extremely high quality products which far exceed what Pakistan currently has. I'm fairly sure the RAF is well pleased with it.

 

[fanna4paf2]

how stupic title who will give us typhoon what a jok

 

[airmarshal]

The primary reason for Austria, one of the prominent European countries, to retire Eurofighter Typhoon is the cost of maintenance. Without reading the reason, we are discussing Pakistan, which cant afford 8 new F-16s of its own sources, to buy extremely expensive jets in numbers which simply dont make any sense.

For a country the size of Pakistan, with real threat to its security, if it chooses to go for a Typhoon, cost permitting, the number should be between at least 36 to 48 aircraft not 15.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I doubt its anyone of these.

European countries are downsizing and when compared to gripen or f16 , its obviously going to be expensive. Why wiuld any NATO country buy typhoon as it's operating cost will be at least 2-3x of f16 which is widely available. Its otherwise a good aircraft with proven performance in many countries and an export sucess

The Typhoon T2 and T3 are vastly improved from the T1, not just in terms of capability, but maintenance costs as well. In fact, BAE was awarded a $2.7 bn contract in 2016 to support the RAF's Typhoon T2 and T3 over 10 years (BAE), which for 107 aircraft is about $2.5 m per aircraft per year. The goal of the maintenance program - dubbed TyTAN - was to bring the Typhoon's operating costs relatively close to that of the F-16 (Flight Global).

Fuel is fixed and Pakistan's labour costs are lower, so the main question is the cost of importing spare parts. Let's say the PAF orders 36 Typhoon T3s from BAE. For BAE, the cost of supplying spare parts for that fleet would be $90 m a year. Let's say they profit at $1 m per plane per year - that's $126 million per year for spare parts and $1.26 billion U.S. over 10 years. There are other costs too, but I don't think flying the Typhoon T3 would be 2-3x the F-16 Block-52+, rather, 30-40% more at most.

IMO, in the absence of cash the PAF would basically need a 10-12-year credit line from the UK (and/or Germany, Italy and Spain) to back a Typhoon order. It can probably make the annual payments, but any talk of credit or loans will steer into political issues (e.g. British and European interests in India vs. Pakistan etc). This is where any talk of the Typhoon will stop (or start if looking at it optimistically).

 

[CriticalThought]

I doubt its anyone of these.

European countries are downsizing and when compared to gripen or f16 , its obviously going to be expensive. Why wiuld any NATO country buy typhoon as it's operating cost will be at least 2-3x of f16 which is widely available. Its otherwise a good aircraft with proven performance in many countries and an export sucess

Your kidding right? By all counts Typhoon is 2nd only to the F-22 in the air to air mission. As a multi role platform not sure how it ultimately compares to Rafale. But regardless, both represent two extremely high quality products which far exceed what Pakistan currently has. I'm fairly sure the RAF is well pleased with it.

When I say EFT is an overpriced, undervalued white elephant, you need to consider it in context. Amongst 4.5+ gen aircraft, the EFT wouldn't fair very well. Here is my ordering:

1. Rafale
2. F-15/SE
3. FA-18 Growler -> specialist role for EW
4. EFT/SU-35

Why? EW suites. EW is going to be the deciding factor if these fighters meet each other in anger. Note I have made no mention of F-35 because it simply sits in a league of its own.

Continuing the discussion about PAF acquiring a new platform, this is what I would like ideally:

1. The F-15 is an impossibility.
2. I am not sure what kind of leverage/political maneuvering/etc. we have, but it would be nice if we could buy a bunch of Rafales through back channel diplomacy and the sale is never officially recognized.
3. Failing 2, we should try to procure the Thales SPECTRA system through black market/smuggling whatever it takes.

Make no mistakes. If our pilots don't have a way to routinely train for this threat, they will be mince meat, or roast turkey.

@The SC

 

[The SC]

When I say EFT is an overpriced, undervalued white elephant, you need to consider it in context. Amongst 4.5+ gen aircraft, the EFT wouldn't fair very well. Here is my ordering:

1. Rafale
2. F-15/SE
3. FA-18 Growler -> specialist role for EW
4. EFT/SU-35

Why? EW suites. EW is going to be the deciding factor if these fighters meet each other in anger. Note I have made no mention of F-35 because it simply sits in a league of its own.

Continuing the discussion about PAF acquiring a new platform, this is what I would like ideally:

1. The F-15 is an impossibility.
2. I am not sure what kind of leverage/political maneuvering/etc. we have, but it would be nice if we could buy a bunch of Rafales through back channel diplomacy and the sale is never officially recognized.
3. Failing 2, we should try to procure the Thales SPECTRA system through black market/smuggling whatever it takes.

Make no mistakes. If our pilots don't have a way to routinely train for this threat, they will be mince meat, or roast turkey.

@The SC

I agree with you that EW warfare became (while has always been for the big players) of paramount importance in modern warfare, be it at sea, land or air..You can see how much emphasis I have put on it in the number of threads I have posted on the subject of EW and ECM, because it is one of the most important factors in winning a battle today.. just imagine what happens when you can blind your enemy in a war while you still can see him.. I think it is very self-explanatory..

The Russian Khibini is a very good EW system too.. it is the equivalent of the Spectra.. and China also has some excellent EW systems (from US sources).. from my own analysis, China will soon use Quantum cryptology on its EW/ECM systems..

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

When I say EFT is an overpriced, undervalued white elephant, you need to consider it in context. Amongst 4.5+ gen aircraft, the EFT wouldn't fair very well. Here is my ordering:

1. Rafale
2. F-15/SE
3. FA-18 Growler -> specialist role for EW
4. EFT/SU-35

Why? EW suites. EW is going to be the deciding factor if these fighters meet each other in anger. Note I have made no mention of F-35 because it simply sits in a league of its own.

Continuing the discussion about PAF acquiring a new platform, this is what I would like ideally:

1. The F-15 is an impossibility.
2. I am not sure what kind of leverage/political maneuvering/etc. we have, but it would be nice if we could buy a bunch of Rafales through back channel diplomacy and the sale is never officially recognized.
3. Failing 2, we should try to procure the Thales SPECTRA system through black market/smuggling whatever it takes.

Make no mistakes. If our pilots don't have a way to routinely train for this threat, they will be mince meat, or roast turkey.

@The SC

It'd be a display of amazing foreign relations prowess to buy 36 Rafales with Qatar or Egypt as the front and with an entirely separate fourth-party source to provide a loan to back the deal. Unfortunately, this is about as scarce in Pakistan as cash upfront.

 

[CriticalThought]

It'd be a display of amazing foreign relations prowess to buy 36 Rafales with Qatar or Egypt as the front and with an entirely separate fourth-party source to provide a loan to back the deal. Unfortunately, this is about as scarce in Pakistan as cash upfront.

Sir 36 is too many. We need to get only 4 odd planes from a larger order placed by Qatar (for example)

 

[Shane]

It'd be a display of amazing foreign relations prowess to buy 36 Rafales with Qatar or Egypt as the front and with an entirely separate fourth-party source to provide a loan to back the deal. Unfortunately, this is about as scarce in Pakistan as cash upfront.

You nailed it. For nearly the last 10 years or so, one cannot find mentioned anywhere the words Foreign relations prowess and Pakistan in a single sentence.

From reading post-its in front of Obama to stutring in front of Chinese President and being thrown on the back benches in Middle East Confrence, for nearly the last five years, all we have been doing is play catch up with our tail most of the time in our Foreign Relations and we have been markedly docile to the point of being impotent.

That leaves ACM Sohail Aman on his own to pull something out of his hat and hack out some semblence of a foreign relations miracle. Salute to his leadership for bringing the Solo-Turk and Saudi Hawks here. Some thing is definately going on, what with all his numerous recent visits to the PM house. He may yet surprise us, in sha Allah!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You nailed it. For nearly the last 10 years or so, one cannot find mentioned anywhere the words Foreign relations prowess and Pakistan in a single sentence.

From reading post-its in front of Obama to stutring in front of Chinese President and being thrown on the back benches in Middle East Confrence, for nearly the last five years, all we have been doing is play catch up with our tail most of the time in our Foreign Relations and we have been markedly docile to the point of being impotent.

That leaves ACM Sohail Aman on his own to pull something out of his hat and hack out some semblence of a foreign relations miracle. Salute to his leadership for bringing the Solo-Turk and Saudi Hawks here. Some thing is definately going on, what with all his numerous recent visits to the PM house. He may yet surprise us, in sha Allah!

ACM Sohail Aman, the MoDP Rana Tanveer Hussain and the current MoI Ahsan Iqbal (plus a few others) are pretty good highlights in an otherwise dull leadership. In the April 2017 interview with Bol Narratives, ACM Sohail Aman said the leading options for new off-the-shelf fighters are in China and Russia. Unless that's a feint, I think the focus is on a medium or heavyweight from those countries. Then again, I'd probably keep any talk of a Western jet very close to my chest too...

 

[CriticalThought]

You nailed it. For nearly the last 10 years or so, one cannot find mentioned anywhere the words Foreign relations prowess and Pakistan in a single sentence.

From reading post-its in front of Obama to stutring in front of Chinese President and being thrown on the back benches in Middle East Confrence, for nearly the last five years, all we have been doing is play catch up with our tail most of the time in our Foreign Relations and we have been markedly docile to the point of being impotent.

That leaves ACM Sohail Aman on his own to pull something out of his hat and hack out some semblence of a foreign relations miracle. Salute to his leadership for bringing the Solo-Turk and Saudi Hawks here. Some thing is definately going on, what with all his numerous recent visits to the PM house. He may yet surprise us, in sha Allah!

Insha Allah. But we must not forget the... *AHEM* ... 'contributions' of our Foreign Minister cum Prime Minister Mr. Nawaz Sharif.

 

[Shane]

Then again, I'd probably keep any talk of a Western jet very close to my chest too...

And thats the gist.

 

[jupiter2007]

ACM Sohail Aman, the MoDP Rana Tanveer Hussain and the current MoI Ahsan Iqbal (plus a few others) are pretty good highlights in an otherwise dull leadership. In the April 2017 interview with Bol Narratives, ACM Sohail Aman said the leading options for new off-the-shelf fighters are in China and Russia. Unless that's a feint, I think the focus is on a medium or heavyweight from those countries. Then again, I'd probably keep any talk of a Western jet very close to my chest too...

Are you saying J-10CE or J-16 from China might be an option?

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Everyone is selling something. Pakistan has no money for weapons.

We need to make hospitals and infrastructure and build our economy. Weapon systems are secondary priority right now.

If we face threat just fire one or two mini nukes to kill them all invading forces.