Austria Retiring 15 New Eurofighter Typhoon Should Paf buys them for airsuperiority

[A.P. Richelieu]

They can afford them if they have threat like India next door but they know that no big threat is there which requires big ticket funding.



Do you think PAF will go for latest trench 3 EFTs?? Although it's what PAF needs to counter expanding IAF.



EFT will also bring weapons which PAF don't have now i.e meteor BVR and Brimstone etc.

Is it really likely that Tranche 1 Eurofighters will be qualified for Meteor?
I'd rather doubt it...

 

[The Accountant]

It's just not cost-effective to upgrade the Tranche 1. They had replaced and changed a lot of the internal stuff (e.g. wiring, computers, etc) to get to Tranche 2. The RAF will just fly its T1s as air-to-air fighters.

If the PAF wants the Typhoon for strike missions, then it can look at ~24 T3s with custom munitions (e.g. Turkish SOM, Ra'ad 2, Roketsan Atmaca, HGK, etc). Have them work in concert with the F-16s (e.g. T3 for strike and F-16s for top cover and air interdiction).

But Euro fighter is not preferred for strike mission ... I think it is more of air superiority fighter ...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But Euro fighter is not preferred for strike mission ... I think it is more of air superiority fighter ...

The T3 is a complete swing-role platform. It has a payload of 9,000 kg, which can be employed to deploy many kinds of SOWs, e.g. ALCM, AShM, etc.

 

[The Accountant]

The T3 is a complete swing-role platform. It has a payload of 9,000 kg, which can be employed to deploy many kinds of SOWs, e.g. ALCM, AShM, etc.

I agree, but the point I am trying to highlight that Euro Fighter is more capabel in air to air role with meteor and other goodies so if we induct them then isnt it better to use them in air superiority role whereas strike missions to be performed by vipers and thunders ...

So I just want to understand your thought process on this as I am sure you are much more learned fellow than me so I just want to understand why you are preferring euro fighter for strike role and f16 for air superiority...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I agree, but the point I am trying to highlight that Euro Fighter is more capabel in air to air role with meteor and other goodies so if we induct them then isnt it better to use them in air superiority role whereas strike missions to be performed by vipers and thunders ...

So I just want to understand your thought process on this as I am sure you are much more learned fellow than me so I just want to understand why you are preferring euro fighter for strike role and f16 for air superiority...

Unless the U.S. agrees to release the JASSM, JSOW and Harpoon for the F-16s - or lets the PAF integrate Turkish equivalents to its F-16s - then the PAF can't use the F-16s for strike (beyond deploying JDAM and Paveway). But the F-16s do have AMRAAM C5s, Link-16 and AIDEWS, which makes them pretty good air-to-air platforms. They are also medium-weight platforms with the range to accompany - and cover - a heavier strike fighter.

The Typhoon is better at air-to-air but we have the theoretical option of at least arming them with ALCM, SOW, AShM, etc. If not from MBDA then with Turkey (albeit at a cost). Of course, one can add Meteor and/or HOBS AAM to the Typhoon as well along with the air-to-ground weapons. It's an issue of availability. If ITAR was not an issue then the PAF would basically only need more F-16s (for deep-strike and top cover and air interdiction).

 

[CriticalThought]

There is only one reason why I would favour the acquisition of a minimal number of some very latest model fighter jets: as a driver of quality. One reason why the Thunder is so successful is PAF's intimate knowledge of F-16. It allows them to demand a certain level of performance, knowing what is possible in the world out there. Yes, you can have exercises with friendly nations, read, watch videos, but nothing beats having a fighter jet in the country that our pilots can fly any time and learns the ins and outs of it. Getting out of touch with what's out there is the biggest concern with limiting ourselves to indigenous, or single source platforms.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There is only one reason why I would favour the acquisition of a minimal number of some very latest model fighter jets: as a driver of quality. One reason why the Thunder is so successful is PAF's intimate knowledge of F-16. It allows them to demand a certain level of performance, knowing what is possible in the world out there. Yes, you can have exercises with friendly nations, read, watch videos, but nothing beats having a fighter jet in the country that our pilots can fly any time and learns the ins and outs of it. Getting out of touch with what's out there is the biggest concern with limiting ourselves to indigenous, or single source platforms.

Yep there's that as well. Something such as the Typhoon T3 or Rafale offers a fresh insight into new(er) delta designs, how to yield high payloads from relatively compact designs, etc. Moreover, DACT.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yep there's that as well. Something such as the Typhoon T3 or Rafale offers a fresh insight into new(er) delta designs, how to yield high payloads from relatively compact designs, etc. Moreover, DACT.

The capabilities of modern radar, EW, and weapons packages. Coming up with strategies to beat them with what we have is absolutely essential.

 

[fitpOsitive]

I think this is very calculated move. May be they or somebody else wants them to sale it to a EU country? Like, just for testing. So that order may be extended to, may be Germany?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Sure if they want to get more stuff open to sanctions and controls (West lately is drifting away from Pakistan military and further impetus being added by US under Trump it seems). There is pro and con...and is it worth it with only 15 aircraft too.

To support 15 fighters the ammount of support infrastructure that would need to be created would be immense and it would all have to be brand new as the PAF has not previously operated the EFT nor does it have maintainence facilities for the major elements (radar, avionics, engine etc) found on the EFT.

Furthermore, the Tranche 1 EFTs are riddled with problems (hence why so many operators are ditching them hand over fist), why would anyone want to buy used, expensive, defective fighter jets in such limited numbers?


There's simply no way this deal would make economic or military sense.

 

[ziaulislam]

It's just not cost-effective to upgrade the Tranche 1. They had replaced and changed a lot of the internal stuff (e.g. wiring, computers, etc) to get to Tranche 2. The RAF will just fly its T1s as air-to-air fighters.

If the PAF wants the Typhoon for strike missions, then it can look at ~24 T3s with custom munitions (e.g. Turkish SOM, Ra'ad 2, Roketsan Atmaca, HGK, etc). Have them work in concert with the F-16s (e.g. T3 for strike and F-16s for top cover and air interdiction).

Would it cost more to do full upgarde on trench1 vs buying new.? I am surprised.

Does that mean typhoon was not designed to be a strike fighter in the first place?

 

[CriticalThought]

Would it cost more to do full upgarde on trench1 vs buying new.? I am surprised.

Does that mean typhoon was not designed to be a strike fighter in the first place?

Yes, the initial version was air superiority only.

The upgrades MIGHT be cheaper if you had the facilities in the country. As things stand, they will be done in Europe where labor is more expensive. And they will price it knowingly so you feel compelled to buy brand new jets.

Seriously, I would rather have a very thorough testing phase before we even think of investing in EFT - even Tranche 3. All indicators point at overpriced, under performing, white elephant.

 

[ziaulislam]

Yes, the initial version was air superiority only.

The upgrades MIGHT be cheaper if you had the facilities in the country. As things stand, they will be done in Europe where labor is more expensive. And they will price it knowingly so you feel compelled to buy brand new jets.

Seriously, I would rather have a very thorough testing phase before we even think of investing in EFT - even Tranche 3. All indicators point at overpriced, under performing, white elephant.

its unlikely that PAF has any money to spare

but hypothetically if 5th gen is beyond 2027-2030 and India does float additional rafale for both navy and air force, and PAF ends up with some money than in my opinion among the available options we either have the f-16 or the typhoon, the problem with f-16 s limited ammunition and versatility, the typhoon if brought with mix of old updated to trench 3 and new could be viable option may be a mix of 3 squadrons of old and new 48 odd
this will depend upon the cost of upgrade which i have no idea, but from legacy fighters upgrade deals(f16s/mirages 2000) it should not cost more than 50M.

the only other option for strike package would be mirage2000, rafale is already inducted by india, gripen is to similar to thunder

however, all indications from PAF seems it would boast its f-16s, thunders and try to get a fifth gen plateform as soon as possible

 

[cengizkahra330]

Interesting proposal and discussion. Thank you.

 

[ziaulislam]

Yes, the initial version was air superiority only.

The upgrades MIGHT be cheaper if you had the facilities in the country. As things stand, they will be done in Europe where labor is more expensive. And they will price it knowingly so you feel compelled to buy brand new jets.

Seriously, I would rather have a very thorough testing phase before we even think of investing in EFT - even Tranche 3. All indicators point at overpriced, under performing, white elephant.

I doubt its anyone of these.

European countries are downsizing and when compared to gripen or f16 , its obviously going to be expensive. Why wiuld any NATO country buy typhoon as it's operating cost will be at least 2-3x of f16 which is widely available. Its otherwise a good aircraft with proven performance in many countries and an export sucess