Australian growing relations with India, where does Pakistan stand?

[zhxy]

Australia India alliance is focused on China not Pakistan. Australia as an economy doesn't have much to offer to any country. Our economy is dependent on agri and mining industry coupled with consumer base. Australia has sadly no contributions to science and technology leading to near zero tech based exports. Australia is sticking its neck out for Americans but US will abandon Australia without even blinking a second time. Australia could have been neutral territory but stupid cunts in power just drag us around in meaningless tussles.

Agree, It's like shooting ourselves on the foot, Without the Chinese market we're kind of fecked but you have to realize successive govts including ScoMo would be hesitant to let go of the links to the West that easily at the cost of appeasing China, It's still very much at the heart of the electorate, Remember it's still predominantly white

Blood is thicker than water

 

[Aspen]

It depends on the context. Would you rather be 2nd largest producer of automobiles or 1st largest producer of horse buggies ?

Why can't Pakistan-Australia relations be independent of India ?

Automobiles is one thing. Geopolitics is another.

Maybe in automobiles, its better to be 2nd biggest producer. It is an absolute quantity.

But in geopolitics, it is always a bad thing to be playing 2nd place to anyone. Geopolitics is not a quantifiable or measurable quantity like automobiles. Volatility is a huge negative in geopolitics.

If Volkswagen is 2nd biggest car manufacturer, they will probably be the 2nd biggest car manufacturer for a while and things are not going to rapidly change overnight. Volkswagen CEO can go to sleep at night knowing that when he wakes up in the morning, it is very likely that Volkswagen will probably still be the 2nd biggest car manufacturer and nothing will have changed overnight.

Geopolitics is the complete opposite, you could wake up one morning and be in the middle of a crisis over some political dispute that happened in the middle of the night.

Being #1 like in mass produced automobiles is not important since measurable positions stay pretty consistent over a long period of time and is very predictable. However in non-predictable or non-measurable positions like geopolitics, you have no clue where you will end up the next day, so it is very important to be #1 if possible, since you will need all the support you can get in a major crisis. Being 2nd place is not acceptable, especially if the 1st place guy is your enemy, because he will use his 1st place position to keep you down, and that country will listen to 1st place that is your enemy before he listens to you in 2nd place.

This is why it is better to be 1st in a small country than 2nd in a big country. 2nd place of a big country can never counter 1st place in the same country since 1st gets priority, but even 1st place of a different country can counter 1st place of a big country.

Pakistan will have much stronger leverage against India by being #1 in New Zealand and Indonesia than being #2 in Australia.

Australia can chose to ignore Pakistan if it is #2 within Australia, but if Pakistan is number #1 in New Zealand, it will have the favor of NZ gov't over India within NZ, and NZ gov't has much stronger lobbying directly in Australia than Pakistan and it is harder for India and Australia to ignore.

Basically making NZ and Indonesia a strong friend of Pakistan is a better move than being in the shadow of India in Australia.

 

[Gibbs]

Australia has not made any direct aggressive overtures against Pakistan on behest of India.

So far but take a look at what happened at the OIC and others in the Middle East considered Muslim brethren of Pakistan, In Real politik there arnt permanent friends or foes, What Pakistan need is at most neutrality to counterweight India's aggressive diplomacy, to do that you cant dismiss regional and economic powers like Australia

Automobiles is one thing. Geopolitics is another.

Maybe in automobiles, its better to be 2nd biggest producer. It is an absolute quantity.

But in geopolitics, it is always a bad thing to be playing 2nd place to anyone. Geopolitics is not a quantifiable or measurable quantity like automobiles. Volatility is a huge negative in geopolitics.

If Volkswagen is 2nd biggest car manufacturer, they will probably be the 2nd biggest car manufacturer for a while and things are not going to rapidly change overnight. Volkswagen CEO can go to sleep at night knowing that when he wakes up in the morning, it is very likely that Volkswagen will probably still be the 2nd biggest car manufacturer and nothing will have changed overnight.

Geopolitics is the complete opposite, you could wake up one morning and be in the middle of a crisis over some political dispute that happened in the middle of the night.

Being #1 like in mass produced automobiles is not important since measurable positions stay pretty consistent over a long period of time and is very predictable. However in non-predictable or non-measurable positions like geopolitics, you have no clue where you will end up the next day, so it is very important to be #1 if possible, since you will need all the support you can get in a major crisis. Being 2nd place is not acceptable, especially if the 1st place guy is your enemy, because he will use his 1st place position to keep you down, and that country will listen to 1st place that is your enemy before he listens to you in 2nd place.

This is why it is better to be 1st in a small country than 2nd in a big country. 2nd place of a big country can never counter 1st place in the same country since 1st gets priority, but even 1st place of a different country can counter 1st place of a big country.

Pakistan will have much stronger leverage against India by being #1 in New Zealand and Indonesia than being #2 in Australia.

Australia can chose to ignore Pakistan if it is #2 within Australia, but if Pakistan is number #1 in New Zealand, it will have the favor of NZ gov't over India within NZ, and NZ gov't has much stronger lobbying directly in Australia than Pakistan and it is harder for India and Australia to ignore.

Basically making NZ and Indonesia a strong friend of Pakistan is a better move than being in the shadow of India in Australia.

Mate, Going by history and trend NZ foreign policy does'nt differ much to Australia's, Remember the Indian diaspora is a considerable equation in this and India has been very smart in utilizing it, At most NZ will be neutral if the choice come to it

 

[Aspen]

Australia has not made any direct aggressive overtures against Pakistan on behest of India.

You don't think India allowing Australia to use its military bases is not an aggressive overture against Pakistan?

Australia can't do shit against China, this military base agreement is a Pakistan containment move that India egged Australia into doing disguised as an anti-China measure.

What do you think is going to happen if during next Feb 27, Australia decides to send some jets to an Indian base near Pakistan border? We shouldn't be pissed about it?

 

[Pandora]

Agree, It's like shooting ourselves on the foot, Without the Chinese market we're kind of fecked but you have to realize successive govts including ScoMo would be hesitant to let go of the links to the West that easily at the cost of appeasing China, It's still very much at the heart of the electorate, Remember it's still predominantly white

True but no west will be coming to our rescue if shit hits the fan. Australia will be the first country to get into the cross fire during any sort of conflict between US and China. I mean we should have realised our place in US alliance after Trump backtracked on several prior commitments and literally insulted our PM several times over the phone. Also you have point even our politics is still dominated by whites and you only see those token elected brown people here and there preaching tolerant nature of white brand in Australia. We need to evolve out of our colonial era mindset if Australia is ever to progress on its own.

Blood is thicker than water

Which blood? There are over 2 million Chinese immigrants who have made Australia their home making 3.6% of population. If you start dividing people based on BLOOD you will not have a country like Australia. We are multicultural country and shaming a certain ethnicity should stop.

 

[nahtanbob]

Automobiles is one thing. Geopolitics is another.

Maybe in automobiles, its better to be 2nd biggest producer. It is an absolute quantity.

But in geopolitics, it is always a bad thing to be playing 2nd place to anyone. Geopolitics is not a quantifiable or measurable quantity like automobiles. Volatility is a huge negative in geopolitics.

If Volkswagen is 2nd biggest car manufacturer, they will probably be the 2nd biggest car manufacturer for a while and things are not going to rapidly change overnight. Volkswagen CEO can go to sleep at night knowing that when he wakes up in the morning, it is very likely that Volkswagen will probably still be the 2nd biggest car manufacturer and nothing will have changed overnight.

Geopolitics is the complete opposite, you could wake up one morning and be in the middle of a crisis over some political dispute that happened in the middle of the night.

Being #1 like in mass produced automobiles is not important since measurable positions stay pretty consistent over a long period of time and is very predictable. However in non-predictable or non-measurable positions like geopolitics, you have no clue where you will end up the next day, so it is very important to be #1 if possible, since you will need all the support you can get in a major crisis. Being 2nd place is not acceptable, especially if the 1st place guy is your enemy, because he will use his 1st place position to keep you down, and that country will listen to 1st place that is your enemy before he listens to you in 2nd place.

This is why it is better to be 1st in a small country than 2nd in a big country. 2nd place of a big country can never counter 1st place in the same country since 1st gets priority, but even 1st place of a different country can counter 1st place of a big country.

Pakistan will have much stronger leverage against India by being #1 in New Zealand and Indonesia than being #2 in Australia.

Australia can chose to ignore Pakistan if it is #2 within Australia, but if Pakistan is number #1 in New Zealand, it will have the favor of NZ gov't over India within NZ, and NZ gov't has much stronger lobbying directly in Australia than Pakistan and it is harder for India and Australia to ignore.

Basically making NZ and Indonesia a strong friend of Pakistan is a better move than being in the shadow of India in Australia.

1. Exactly explain why is India 1st in Australia ? Maybe it is 1st with respect to Pakistan. Is it 1st in grand scheme of things ? I would say USA and China are the most important countries in Australia's national interests. Your arguments don't work for two teams fighting for the 31st and 32nd spots.

2. Why is this issue binary in geopolitics ? Australia is not going to defend India against Pakistani attack. Or support India against Pakistan. The focus of Australia and India is on China. If you are going to pick on any country making a common cause with India against China, it might turn out to be a long list depending upon China's behavior and India's relative standing.

3. You ignore the fact there is no difference between Australia and NZ. Australia, NZ and USA are part of ANZUS - mutual defense treaty. you are making a distinction where none exists. Australia and Indonesia are friendly today despite tensions in the past. In any case Australia and Indonesia are never hostile to each other like India and Pakistan. There is nothing mutually exclusive about relationships with these countries. In fact I would assume India and Pakistan would pursue ties with all the three countries.

 

[Gibbs]

True but no west will be coming to our rescue if shit hits the fan. Australia will be the first country to get into the cross fire during any sort of conflict between US and China. I mean we should have realised our place in US alliance after Trump backtracked on several prior commitments and literally insulted our PM several times over the phone. Also you have point even our politics is still dominated by whites and you only see those token elected brown people here and there preaching tolerant nature of white brand in Australia. We need to evolve out of our colonial era mindset if Australia is ever to progress on its own.

Hmmm i wouldnt dismiss USOZ military ties that easily, There would definitely be support militarily IF there would be a direct conflict with China, Even discounting US military assets in Darwin, That's a given imo

Australia is as racist as any other country mate including those non white countries we'll be lying to ourselves if we believe other wise, Just that it's predominantly white and more crass about it than Europe and North America, where most racists are closeted.. So it's more prominent, Saying that over 30% of our population are foreign born or first gen immigrants, Majority are from non Anglo Celtic nations, But yes we have a long way to go to get out of this colonial mentality for that i guess baby boomers need to pass on

 

[nahtanbob]

You don't think India allowing Australia to use its military bases is not an aggressive overture against Pakistan?

Australia can't do shit against China, this military base agreement is a Pakistan containment move that India egged Australia into doing disguised as an anti-China measure.

What do you think is going to happen if during next Feb 27, Australia decides to send some jets to an Indian base near Pakistan border? We shouldn't be pissed about it?

Australia fought against Imperial Japanese Army in World War 2. If push comes to shove they will fight China alongside USA.

Has India allowed foreign states to station combat aircraft on its soil ? You are pissed off about something has not happened

 

[Pandora]

You don't think India allowing Australia to use its military bases is not an aggressive overture against Pakistan?

Australia can't do shit against China, this military base agreement is a Pakistan containment move that India egged Australia into doing disguised as an anti-China measure.

What do you think is going to happen if during next Feb 27, Australia decides to send some jets to an Indian base near Pakistan border? We shouldn't be pissed about it?

Please stop using your conjuncture to objectify your opinions. Australia has never made any aggressive move against Pakistan. Pakistan simply is not even in entire strategic calculus of Australia. We effectively have same partnership with china but i have yet to see Australia whine about it. Every country has their own concerns so stop acting like a spoiled kid who lost his toy. For Australia Pakistan is not even a concern in a distant future let alone right now.

 

[nahtanbob]

Hmmm i wouldnt dismiss USOZ military ties that easily, There would definitely be support militarily IF there would be a direct conflict with China, Even discounting US military assets in Darwin, That's a given imo

I would expect a Chinese military attack on Australia to start World War 3. I doubt USA, Canada, UK and West Europeans would allow it. Neither are the Chinese stupid to start one.

 

[Dark1]

Australia has not made any direct aggressive overtures against Pakistan on behest of India. Our diplomatic relations are very optimal and considering we compete in international market for similar products for export both countries simply have nothing to offer to each other economically. Any ways India Australia Alliance is merely strategic in nature. It is not as if India can offer any technological advantage to Australia which Australia simply cant get from west or US already. India is a country with nearly 1.3 billion people so Australia has every right to have good relation with them to export their products. I do have issues when our Australian leaders start dicking around when we could be developing our economy by sitting on the sidelines. Why do we have to be party to China US dick measuring contest?

What are you doing here ?

 

[Dalit]

you are the voice of reason and calm. have a nice day

Much better than hating and killing all over the place. May you find the courage to look in the mirror before handing out lectures.

I would expect a Chinese military attack on Australia to start World War 3. I doubt USA, Canada, UK and West Europeans would allow it. Neither are the Chinese stupid to start one.

Where did you pull that wisdom from, voice of reason? Straight out of Breivik's manifesto?

Are you the Webmaster ? Get a grip.. Btw it's not me that goes around spewing hate on the West but hiding away in a same society i detest, Talk about identity crisis

I am a Pakistani who won't tolerate shit from a renowned Pakistan hater. Deal with it. You bunch of ignorant fools think you can come on this forum to hate on us. You got it wrong.

Or strengthen diplomatic effort with Australia.. It need not be a zero sum game

Australia is a little lackey of the US and an avid China hater. We won't appease Australia just because you demand from us. Who the fvck are you?

Look at the audacity and arrogance of these Anglo-Saxons. They believe that the onus is on Pakistan to strengthen diplomatic relations with Anglo-Saxon and Western nations LOL No, the onus is not on us. In fact, our interests collide and there is nothing to be gained by having diplomatic relations with angry Anglo-Saxons who hate Muslims as a hobby.

We found the excellent ally in our region. Pakistan and China will prosper and the Anglo-Saxons are going to fume. Just like you lot are.

 

[Hiraa]

Do we even have a relationship with Australia? Sure our students immigrate for better prospects but I can’t remember we had any sort of strategic relation with them.

 

[Nefarious]

Doesn't concern Pakistan but more to do with Aussies issues with the Chinese. So much anti China articles/vids coming out of Australia lately.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Australia fought against Imperial Japanese Army in World War 2. If push comes to shove they will fight China alongside USA.

Has India allowed foreign states to station combat aircraft on its soil ? You are pissed off about something has not happened

You don't need to go that far. Australia must be the most faithful partner of the US. Australia is the first country to send troops to support the US in its WOT efforts no questions asked and are silent partners in a wide range of military and strategic affairs. Many don't understand the depth of US - Aus relation and they see everything through a British angle when it comes to Australia.