Attack on PAF Base Minhas

[laiqs@mi]

safriz
that would have been for 3,4 all of them were shot dead before they could have explode themselves??
i've heard that these sucides have one man controlling with remote when they die or may be during the fight when the controller thinks that now he is not useful he press the button.
i've seen this with my eyes. during juma prayer a suicide attacker was arrested near our masjid and the other guy who was controlling him tried but not succeeded and then ran away.

 

[HRK]

Because People of Pakistan think that this ****** created by ARMY (Pakistan 60 years of ***** policy who made by Establishment and thats what everyone knw very wel)

So why the people of Pakistan feel the heat of reaction ??? The childrens of Pakistan Army/Airforce/naval study in Top Universities/Colleges/Schools and getting top Medical services as compare to the civilian whom even don't know how 1965/1971/Afghan War/1999/ and top failure history from 2001 - 2012 happened and you are telling the people of Pakistan "OOO SADAY NAAL MIL KAR JANG LAROO"

FOR WHAT ??????????

Guess what from last few days which kind of preception about PAkistan Military in Islamabad/Rawalpindi Schools/Colleges/Uni/Markets/Bazars// which kind of discussion is going on??

yaar leave it simplly PAKISTAN PEOPLE ARE NOT INTERESTED TO SUPPORT PAKISTAN ARMY who even don't know WHAT IS NEXT who even completely failed to defend herself whom Security openly challenged by TERRORIST from Afghanistan.

People of Pakistan want the ANSWERS of MANY MANY Question why the hell that BEGERAT GENERAL Musharaf and CO***party JOIN US ... PAKISTAN ke AWAM sa pooch kar join kya tha ?????

So IF THESE GENERALS NOT EVEN INTERESTED TO ASK AND ATLEAST INFORM THE PEOPLE OF PAKSITAN THAT WHAT IS OUR POLICY AND OUR INTERESTS WHY THE HELL PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN CARE ABOUT THIS ARMY AND THESE GENERALS ??

"You Don't Have Answer"

Dear can you or anybody answer one question “Do you believe that Pakistan defense forces are MURTID?”

I know it is a harsh question and look out of context in this discussion but it is the real mentality of our new enemy and guess what it is the wall choking at NATIONAL STADIUM KARACHI according to them “our arm forces are MURTID and if they are MURTID then you and I are also MURTID for them and if it is HALLAL to kill a personal of arm forces then it is also HALLAL to kill you and me”

Dear it that religious challenges about which I am talking, do you think can our arm force could reply it effectively. Now tell me whose duty is to respond.

Dear there are some popular believes and perceptions and they are true to some extent but dear if you hold responsible Pakistan Army for Kashmir policy then what is your opinion about Quaid-e-Azam role.

If you think Afghan policy was first given by PA then what was the role of Mr. Z. A Bhutto in Afghan policy, If you hold responsible PA for the first Afghan war then what about USA, SAUDI ARIBIA, and other European countries at that time.

If you hold responsible PA for sectarianism in country then what about proxy policies of KSA and Iranian in late 80s and 90s

If you hold responsible PA for our policy towards India then what about the role of civilian leadership from Liquat Ali Khan to Sikander Mirza

Dear I am not trying to be a devil’s advocate here, I am not asking these question to put blame on other side or to defend the our arm forces but to make a point that our both civilian and defence leadership took their part in history and now both of them should hold responsible not any single institution.

This hard time has exposed our limitation and strengths, our failure and short come of our past policies, It is the time we need to revisit our all policies with mutual consensus, these are summarize challenges which we as a nation are facing it is beyond the capacity of any single institution or a segment of society.

 

[aanshu001]

Well not soon enough, perpetrators had enough time to explode their waists!
What were they waiting for? Why the never used this option, this time around? was it a co-incidence that all waists were defective? or they were deliberately sent in with defective waists?

I do think so, normally (my guess) an explosive expert would had prepared circuit of all bombs for a mission is same manner or circuit, so if there is flaw in one that means flaw in all (as they had fallowed same blue print).

 

[Thorough Pro]

A question to people who spent their life in village and familiar with life in village. Can a group of people with load of weapon can pass through un noticed in the middle of night ?

Do you think someone inside the village provide them secured passage ?

You answered it yourself, there is no one to notice in the middle of the night.

 

[MastanKhan]

I'm wondering why does the suicide waists failed this time? all of them I believe! Were they defective?

What could be, possible source of explosives?

IMO,, the attack was lousy? what could be reason for that?

Hi,

Seems like they did not get close to their target----. It just showed us that one vigilant soldier with the right weaponscan make such a big difference----.

This single act of defence must be an eye opener---where one vigilant soldier with some luck can deny passage to terrorists---then 10 vigilant soldiers can keep them out in the first place.

There is no magic wand in providing security to a fixed operations base---you just have to follow the simple and basic guidelines---you got to have feet on the ground.


Haider,

A fear of retaliation by the taliban---no security provided by the police---police arresting the informer and claiming he is the taliban maybe / could be some of the reasons that the villagers did not inform the base orraise an alarm.

 

[blain2]

But---the bottomline---the air base commander in karachi--he needs the hangman's noose---no ifs and buts. Untill and unless you people don't start up with the cleansing process---you people won't have a nation left---pretty soon.

At a very basic level, either in a court of law or that in the books of military law, your suggestion would not hold water. The reason for it is that whereas the base commander has a responsibility towards the security of the base, he himself is not the one holding a rifle and standing guard. He delegates this responsibility to his officers who delegate it to ORs. The Base commander is already paying for this with his career. Its over for him. Capital punishment for an incident in a situation where the best the base commander and those under his command can do is be reactive (which they were), is unfair any which way one looks at this.

I agree on the need for a fly by of the AEW&C platforms.

 

[blain2]

National Pride was lost in 71- or we keep on loosing the remianing- in raymond- osama- GHQ- mehran- minhas-
Maybe our national pride is so much fragile that some 10 talibunies in a failed attempt attacking a base dents it-
i didnt see that in 9/11- 7/11- 26/11- infact those made them stronger- united-
in our case Pride is directly propotional to talibunies attacking our military bases-

Or maybe we need to recalibrate what national pride really is. Of all the nations in the World, we are the most obsessed with national pride. Is national pride lost because of a terrorist attack against a military airfield? Or in the Raymond David case when the murderer pays the family blood money, or when we help the Americans get OBL? I am not sure why the national pride only comes into the picture when some outsiders are involved? Where is the bloody national pride when mobs rule the roost? Where is the national pride when people are going to sleep on empty stomachs or when we are raising an army of illiterates?

Why the obsession with national pride only when there is an attack on the security forces? Is it not their job to take on the militants and draw them away from civilians? For those suggesting lessons have not been learned, I beg to differ. PAF alone has 30+ major bases, sites. Army close 200, Navy somewhere in between 7-15. Then you count all of the strategic bases. At the end of the day, securing each and every one is a very costly proposition. So the reaction to the attempt at Kamra was not bad at all. I am not going to delve into what the PAF had done proactively based on the intelligence reporting, but suffice it to say, lessons have been learned and measures were taken. Until the TTP are hit at their home bases, we will remain in a reactive mode.

Personally, national pride be damned at this time. All that matters is that we, as a nation, win the day against the TTP and survive. National pride is a relative thing. To each person it means something different. I think the national pride is intact given the circumstances.

 

[VCheng]

Wise words indeed that bear repeating:

............ Where is the bloody national pride when mobs rule the roost? Where is the national pride when people are going to sleep on empty stomachs or when we are raising an army of illiterates?

Why the obsession with national pride only when there is an attack on the security forces? Is it not their job to take on the militants and draw them away from civilians? ...............

Personally, national pride be damned at this time. All that matters is that we, as a nation, win the day against the TTP and survive. ................

 

[MastanKhan]

At a very basic level, either in a court of law or that in the books of military law, your suggestion would not hold water. The reason for it is that whereas the base commander has a responsibility towards the security of the base, he himself is not the one holding a rifle and standing guard. He delegates this responsibility to his officers who delegate it to ORs. The Base commander is already paying for this with his career. Its over for him. Capital punishment for an incident in a situation where the best the base commander and those under his command can do is be reactive (which they were), is unfair any which way one looks at this.

I agree on the need for a fly by of the AEW&C platforms.

Wow,

"base commander is already Paying for this with his career"----what a senseless statement----. Dereliction of duty is a capitol offence in any millitary and more so in time of war---.

The job of a commander is just not only to designate but to make sure it is implemented as well---by surprise visits at the check points---. Incompetence is not an excuse for a base commander---.

Hang him high---the quality of the security will go up alarmingly---hang those officers as well who did not carry out the orders---efficiency will go thru the roof---

This post of your---reeks of support for incompetency---when you justify that the orders have been given but the others did not carry them out. Incidently---in the armed forces---there is a cure for that---aka---court martial.

The millitary can also do something else---humiliate him thru his friends---make him do the honorable things that the generals do when they fail.

 

[Mani2020]

Or maybe we need to recalibrate what national pride really is. Of all the nations in the World, we are the most obsessed with national pride. Is national pride lost because of a terrorist attack against a military airfield? Or in the Raymond David case when the murderer pays the family blood money, or when we help the Americans get OBL? I am not sure why the national pride only comes into the picture when some outsiders are involved? Where is the bloody national pride when mobs rule the roost? Where is the national pride when people are going to sleep on empty stomachs or when we are raising an army of illiterates?

Why the obsession with national pride only when there is an attack on the security forces? Is it not their job to take on the militants and draw them away from civilians? For those suggesting lessons have not been learned, I beg to differ. PAF alone has 30+ major bases, sites. Army close 200, Navy somewhere in between 7-15. Then you count all of the strategic bases. At the end of the day, securing each and every one is a very costly proposition. So the reaction to the attempt at Kamra was not bad at all. I am not going to delve into what the PAF had done proactively based on the intelligence reporting, but suffice it to say, lessons have been learned and measures were taken. Until the TTP are hit at their home bases, we will remain in a reactive mode.

Personally, national pride be damned at this time. All that matters is that we, as a nation, win the day against the TTP and survive. National pride is a relative thing. To each person it means something different. I think the national pride is intact given the circumstances.

exactly my point , thats what i was trying to convey in another forum and guess what i was tagged with indian, bharti and dont know what stuff and got banned .

That shows the tolerance of our society , you speak against their thoughts even on an open defence forum and they will kick you like anything . That is the reason why we are having so much extremism and violence .

 

[blain2]

Wow,

"base commander is already Paying for this with his career"----what a senseless statement----. Dereliction of duty is a capitol offence in any millitary and more so in time of war---.

The job of a commander is just not only to designate but to make sure it is implemented as well---by surprise visits at the check points---. Incompetence is not an excuse for a base commander---.

Hang him high---the quality of the security will go up alarmingly---hang those officers as well who did not carry out the orders---efficiency will go thru the roof---

This post of your---reeks of support for incompetency---when you justify that the orders have been given but the others did not carry them out. Incidently---in the armed forces---there is a cure for that---aka---court martial.

The millitary can also do something else---humiliate him thru his friends---make him do the honorable things that the generals do when they fail.

Mastan,

Dereliction of duty is not a "Capital" offense. Not according to the Pakistan Army act and not any other that I have heard or read about. You do not get sent to the gallows for things over which you did not have direct control. Even in a civilian court, if you are not the hand behind the trigger involved in someone's murder, you cannot be given the death penalty.

Secondly, all of what you state is a set of assumptions which are all yours. For example, do you know for a fact that the base commander and his designated officers did not conduct inspections of the security measures? If you do not know for sure, then you cannot make a statement that suggests that the officers involved did not do such things.

Don't worry about what my post reeks of and instead focus on facts.

Responsibility and accountability are taken seriously in such matters. The officers involved have been punished in a manner in line with the laid down guidelines and military justice. What you suggest is essentially a knee-jerk reaction to satisfy ones' sense of frustration with the situation. Its hardly justice.

 

[AstanoshKhan]

Can anyone please summarise the thread which I didn't follow after the 50th page.... I know about the Martyred soldiers and may they R.I.P, but please can anyone tell something about the damage too.

 

[Safriz]

Govt tight-lipped over Kamra probe findings – The Express Tribune

Govt tight-lipped over Kamra probe findings
By Zahid Gishkori
Published: August 23, 2012

The government on Wednesday remained tightlipped over the probe into the attack on Kamra – one of Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) key bases – after a group of militants attacked the military installation last week killing two security officials.
“There was a stony silence from the office of PAF Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt regarding findings of a high-level inquiry team,” said a senior official of the PAF.
A five-member probe committee, led by Air Marshal Athar Hussain Bokhari, is investigating how militants succeeded in targeting the airbase in Kamra — given the fact that the location had already been attacked twice before.
“We cannot share the findings of the inquiry on [Kamra] attack with anyone at the preliminary stage,” said PAF spokesperson Group Captain Tariq Mahmood. The spokesperson, who chose not to respond to the queries of The Express Tribune, only revealed that a team was investigating various issues which could not be revealed to civilians at this stage.
“Give us one or two more days for some concrete findings about the investigation,” he said when asked a question.
Inquiry reports of the two earlier periphery attacks on Kamra Airbase are yet to be made public and it has been over 18 months since the two high-level inquiries were ordered by then chief of air staff Marshal Rao Qamar Suleiman.
Officials associated with the probe committee told The Express Tribune that the central point of their investigation is to figure out who provided logistic support to the terrorists.
The preliminary investigation, a senior official said, has revealed clues that tell that four of the nine militants stayed in Makhan Suleman, the nearest village to Kamra Airbase. But the official refused to share any more details given the sensitivity of the matter.
Published in The Express Tribune, August 23rd, 2012.
Read more: kamrabase

 

[Thorough Pro]

the base commander has a responsibility towards the security of the base, he himself is not the one holding a rifle and standing guard. He delegates this responsibility to his officers who delegate it to ORs.

Sorry, one can assign tasks, delegate authority to perform those tasks, hold authorised persons responsible for the completin of those tasks, but one can not delegate his responsibility.


Delegation of authority does not absolve you of your responsibility.

 

[Viper0011.]

Wow,

"base commander is already Paying for this with his career"----what a senseless statement----. Dereliction of duty is a capitol offence in any millitary and more so in time of war---.

The job of a commander is just not only to designate but to make sure it is implemented as well---by surprise visits at the check points---. Incompetence is not an excuse for a base commander---.

Hang him high---the quality of the security will go up alarmingly---hang those officers as well who did not carry out the orders---efficiency will go thru the roof---

This post of your---reeks of support for incompetency---when you justify that the orders have been given but the others did not carry them out. Incidently---in the armed forces---there is a cure for that---aka---court martial.

The millitary can also do something else---humiliate him thru his friends---make him do the honorable things that the generals do when they fail.

I don't think this would be 'justice' to just put a capital punishment on someone due to a situation like the above. One thing is for certain and the US military is trained on it a LOT. When someone is crazy enough to kill themselves or blow themselves up, the other side doesn't really have any bargaining or fighting capacity left.
In Taliban's case, these idiots are killing other muslims first before they can get to the 'Westerners'. And then there is kidnapping, ransoms, etc, etc. One would wonder how are they trying to 'spread Islam through its fundamental means' when these idiots are doing everything against it.
Nutt jobs are nutt jobs. Nothing you can do about it. The base commander was and will be investigated. That's just part of any military.
My whole thing with this is that there had to be the inside help. TTP said that they were targeting AWACS. These guys partially got to one and damaged it. I think the plan was to catch the other one on the tarmac as it returned from the mission. However, sheer luck or schedule conflicts caused that slight delay.
From a security's standpoint BUILD TALL WALLS in two layers around hangers. That eliminates visibility and next time, they can't see the assets inside 10 - 15 feet tall wall. Then have an outer perimeter of a few SSW's on patrol that can quickly respond to situations and then regular security on the check points with one or two APC's present. That way, it someone can crush the layer of guards. APC can immediately block the movement and it'll be safer from the small arms fire and grenades, etc.
You can't eliminate these attacks. You can minimize the impact of these by enhancing security measures. You can't fight with an enemy who's brains are empty from a commonsense standpoint and filled with hatred and craziness that he'd rather blow himself than doing something better with his life.
But the base commander should be investigated, UNLESS he's found guilty of gross negligence, the maximum may be that he won't be the base commander anymore