Attack on PAF Base Minhas

[MastanKhan]

hi,

In case of this base in karachi---they got high rises closer to the base if I am not wrong----they can look down----.

What I am saying is that if there are a reasonable number of combat ready security guards at posts---the attack on mehran would have been a failure as well.

It is all about the weapons in hand and the reaction time---if you have G3's then an x amount of G3 equipped guards should have beenb stationed at check points---and they would have been sufficient to take out the culprits---.

Kamra proved that even one guard with an automatic weapons and some luck give needed time to the incompetent to become competent---.

What Kamra showed was that there was no security placed at Mehran or there were massive gaps in security and lack of automatic weapons given to security.

There is no rocket science involved in this thing---the base commander cannot even do this much---.

Don't you feel ashamed----is there no shame left in you people when you come and defend such basic and fundamental mistakes and judgemental errors due to incompetence and negligence and then try and cover it up---. What kind of sickness is that.

From the reaction at both the bases supports my analysis---at kamra---a very minimal security with automatic weapons---at mehran base---absolutely negligible number of security with automatic weapons---.

If it is not in the constitution of millitary to hang the officer---then it can be instituted---and if it cannot be instituted then some body got to do this favour to the country---.

This is war---the generals need to be hanged by their necks for incompetence and dereliction of duty---their properties confiscated---an example set---. It is all in due time---it will happen---it has to happen to save pakistan from the criminally negligent---.

The air force cannot keep on hiding its traitors---like Air Marshall Rahim---or Asghar Khan---.

 

[MastanKhan]

I was just scrolling thru an old notebook and came across this saying that I had written down----. I have often wondered why some of you have been saying such silly things in your posts that you people do---but this statement made me understand it better---here it is for you and a few others on this board---.

" HUMANS DON'T RISE TO THE OCCASSION---INSTEAD---WE ALL FALL TO OUR LEVEL OF TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE " Archilocus---a greek soldier poet.

 

[XYON]

AS per convoluted logic of some here regarding the actions of Base Commander of PAF Base Minhas vs. Base Commander of PNS Mehran.

1. PNS Mehran also thwarted the attack at the cost of damaged P3C Orion vs PAF Minhas thwarted the attack at the cost of damage to Erieye.

2. PNS Mehran attackers were also suicidal vs PAF Base Minhas Base attackers who were also suicidal

3. PNS Mehran Base attackers scaled the barbed wire wall vs PAF Base Minhas Base attackers also scaled the barbed wire wall

4. PNS Mehran Base attacker were engaged INSIDE the base vs PAF Minhas Base attackers were also engaged INSIDE the base

5. PNS Mehran Base attackers target was Surveillance Aircraft vs PAF Minhas Base attackers target was also surveillance aircrafts

6. PNS Mehran base attackers were killed in a gunfight by PN SSG vs PAF Minhas Base attackers were also killed by PA SSG

7. PNS Mehran base attackers were around 9 in number vs PAF Minhas Base attackers were also 9 in number

8. Both attacks happened during open declaration by our services chief that Pakistan is in a state of war!

9. Both attacks happened during night time when the 'human senses' are at the lowest.

10. Both attacks had involved TTP recon, digging and storage of weapons near the base perimeter, firing of RPG's on target aircraft.

So with the commonalities in the two attacks above, questions beget.

1. Why was NOT the PAF base prepared to counter such simple breaches despite earlier attacks, forward intel and other warnings?

2. Why under the same military code was the PNS Mehran Commander Court Martialed while PAF Base Commander is being hailed as a 'hero' by some?

3. Why was not the PAF Base Minhas perimeter security enhanced despite being in a state of war & open information available on the modus operandi of the TTP attack pattern?

 

[Jango]

hi,


It is all about the weapons in hand and the reaction time---if you have G3's then an x amount of G3 equipped guards should have beenb stationed at check points---and they would have been sufficient to take out the culprits---.

Kamra proved that even one guard with an automatic weapons and some luck give needed time to the incompetent to become competent---.

What Kamra showed was that there was no security placed at Mehran or there were massive gaps in security and lack of automatic weapons given to security.
.

So, at PNS Mehran, there were pistols or revolvers?

 

[sohailbarki]

The questions comes to my mind is that how did they got C4 explosive in such a quantity, second is that there seem to be no ball bearing or nails embedded with the explosive, which they could use to attack solider or checkpoints which means these explosive were mint to destroy aircraft's once they get inside or reach proximity.

 

[Viper0011.]

1. PNS Mehran also thwarted the attack at the cost of damaged P3C Orion vs PAF Minhas thwarted the attack at the cost of damage to Erieye.

3. PNS Mehran Base attackers scaled the barbed wire wall vs PAF Base Minhas Base attackers also scaled the barbed wire wall

5. PNS Mehran Base attackers target was Surveillance Aircraft vs PAF Minhas Base attackers target was also surveillance aircrafts

So with the commonalities in the two attacks above, questions beget.

2. Why under the same military code was the PNS Mehran Commander Court Martialed while PAF Base Commander is being hailed as a 'hero' by some?

3. Why was not the PAF Base Minhas perimeter security enhanced despite being in a state of war & open information available on the modus operandi of the TTP attack pattern?

You brought up some good points. Here's my answer to your questions by numbers:

1) The attacks were not 'thwarted' by any means. In case of PNS Mehran, they achieved their objective and burned down two Orions. In the case of Minhas, there was damage to an AWACS. So in either case, the objectives were achieved, partially or fully. Imagine a war time scenario and your 25% of the AEW is out for a week (one out of three AWACS)....VERY DANGEROUS!

5) Bases are usually miles long. It's hard to put concrete wires all along. Plus it seems as these bases were closer to population so that has its advantages but in this case, total disadvantage. They can come from any direction, cut the barbed fence and enter in. Unless the barbed fence has check posts and camera monitoring and electricity.
My point here is BUILD TWO TALL WALL perimeters around the hangers. 11-15 feet tall concrete walls with electric barbed wires on top. A check point outside with a VERY HEAVY metallic gate. One wall circle will secure the hangers and the other will will house the planes that sit outside for missions. That way, you've hidden the vision from the outside and it'll be hard for these terrorists to see the assets live. They'll never show up as an organized army so they'll always have RPG types of stuff. Walls will help a lot.


4) Correct, both target India-specific spy planes. Go figure who's behind it. However, if the attackers had the capability to 'freely' fire on PAF's assets, you'll be surprised how much the damage would be. Just a couple of RPG's and SMG's at close distance firing a few bullets at 10 planes (an example), would cause hundreds of millions of damage. If you hit the plane around its gas tank, you'll burn it, if you hit it on certain points, you can destroy avionics, wiring, etc. Resulting in putting the plane out of service and then spending millions on getting new radars , avionics, etc. The possibility of damage was a LOT more if the attacker could get a free hand like the Mehran attack.

Now to the other section: No: 2:
I don't think they are treating this base commander as a celebrity here. I think he'll be investigated as this is part of any military. However, the fact that he took a bullet when he could be sitting in a safe area, does show his willingness to sacrifice his life for his country. So you always have to take that into consideration. If they moved him off tomorrow or put him to jail....what's the message you are sending to other officers? He wasn't cousins with these terrorists...but he did put his life on the line to prevent further damage.
The only other distinction is that the base houses around 40 planes. If these terrorists had the free hand, like I explained above, about 5 magazines of AK 47 might put out 10 - 15 of your expensive aircraft. Not to mention significant damage to AWACS as each of them costs like 150 - 200 million dollars. So this is the distinction, the attack's impact was marginalized to what it could have been. If any of these guys had 15 - 20 minutes more before they were head on with the SSW, you BET they would've caused a lot of damage, definitely over $ 200 - 300 million dollars. THAT's A LOT of money for the PAF!

The questions comes to my mind is that how did they got C4 explosive in such a quantity, second is that there seem to be no ball bearing or nails embedded with the explosive, which they could use to attack solider or checkpoints which means these explosive were mint to destroy aircraft's once they get inside or reach proximity.

Yes, I just posted explaining that their target was the AWACS and other aircraft. Damage as many as you can and destroy through suicide vest the ones that are high profile. If these terrorists had their ways, they could've destroyed about a few hundred million dollars worth of equipment and put a HUGE dent into PAF's budget (a few hundred million may mean 15% or more of PAF's budget)

About C4s: This is the same point that the NATO's been trying to make to Pakistan and to operate in these areas to get rid of these explosive making factories. This is a HUGE threat to Pakistan, that any crazy low life can get C4 from the FATA areas. NATO will leave one day...who do you think these idiots will go after? PAKISTAN. Whether you support the US or Not. They will wreck havoc in Pakistan irrespective of her support. Imagine, any modern schooling or other systems that the government might want to implement, that'll make Pakistan a safer, modern country, these people will have an issue with. The response will be "Either you stop of we'll send these terrorists to blow themselves up". If Pakistan doesn't root out this cancer now, it'll spread to her own cities and will become very common and there will be no cure!!! Look at these guys destroying schools in the FATA area, etc.

 

[blain2]

Sorry, one can assign tasks, delegate authority to perform those tasks, hold authorised persons responsible for the completin of those tasks, but one can not delegate his responsibility.


Delegation of authority does not absolve you of your responsibility.

I never said that, thus he is out of the service. Delegation of responsibility vs. delegation of authority is a word play. It is not humanly possible for a base commander to give a command and then follow up on each and every command himself. This is the reason that all military units have a staff function and multiple officers responsible for aspects concerning the unit or the base.

At the end of the day, the command is that of the base commander and there was a lapse in one aspect of his command and for that he has paid with his service. So not sure why we are going about with this word play? Can you make a case that not being responsible with your command can result in the death penalty?

 

[A1Kaid]

PM needs to remain on high alert, fortify all bases reform security checkpoint set ups.

 

[foxbat]

PM needs to remain on high alert, fortify all bases reform security checkpoint set ups.

And that's why these attacks despite immediate outcomes are always a success.. If nothing else they just increased the cost to Pakistani military of maintaining bases, many times over...

 

[blain2]

AS per convoluted logic of some here regarding the actions of Base Commander of PAF Base Minhas vs. Base Commander of PNS Mehran.

1. PNS Mehran also thwarted the attack at the cost of damaged P3C Orion vs PAF Minhas thwarted the attack at the cost of damage to Erieye.

2. PNS Mehran attackers were also suicidal vs PAF Base Minhas Base attackers who were also suicidal

3. PNS Mehran Base attackers scaled the barbed wire wall vs PAF Base Minhas Base attackers also scaled the barbed wire wall

4. PNS Mehran Base attacker were engaged INSIDE the base vs PAF Minhas Base attackers were also engaged INSIDE the base

5. PNS Mehran Base attackers target was Surveillance Aircraft vs PAF Minhas Base attackers target was also surveillance aircrafts

6. PNS Mehran base attackers were killed in a gunfight by PN SSG vs PAF Minhas Base attackers were also killed by PA SSG

7. PNS Mehran base attackers were around 9 in number vs PAF Minhas Base attackers were also 9 in number

8. Both attacks happened during open declaration by our services chief that Pakistan is in a state of war!

9. Both attacks happened during night time when the 'human senses' are at the lowest.

10. Both attacks had involved TTP recon, digging and storage of weapons near the base perimeter, firing of RPG's on target aircraft.

So with the commonalities in the two attacks above, questions beget.

1. Why was NOT the PAF base prepared to counter such simple breaches despite earlier attacks, forward intel and other warnings?

2. Why under the same military code was the PNS Mehran Commander Court Martialed while PAF Base Commander is being hailed as a 'hero' by some?

3. Why was not the PAF Base Minhas perimeter security enhanced despite being in a state of war & open information available on the modus operandi of the TTP attack pattern?

Valid points to a certain extent but also a need to blend some reality into the above.

Some additional points to add to this list:

i) Can we move the bases away from populated areas where the bulk of these bases exist due to constant growth of civilian population around these areas?

ii) Can we afford/fund technology and capabilities in use in the West for perimeter defence of their bases? Can we deploy these at all of our bases? The ISAF/NATO constantly take probing attacks and from time to time major attacks against their bases in Afghanistan despite implementing layers of security including technology. The reason for this is because the entire posture is reactive.

iii) Are the security standards for individual bases regulated by the base commanders or through regulations set by the service? Are these standards/measures deemed affordable at all of the bases?

Given you have all of the above restrictions, how can one expect the military to react to these situations and then be able to secure everything 100%? All the terrorists have to do is to blow a remote controlled bomb in the vicinity of a military installation to win the propaganda war. The military has to not only defeat attacks on its locations, it has to proactively hit these people for which there is no mood. The people involved most likely were all Punjabi taliban. What if the military goes in operation cleanup style (as in Sind) against these elements in the Punjab? That to me is the key "proactive" measure that the military can take, do you think the ruling parties will allow that?

All of what has been discussed thus far is "tactical" protection. What we need is more than that. If I am asked to secure a site, I will ask for significant amount of funding to make the security fool proof. Do you think we have that sort of funding x number of sites to secure?

All in all, the response at Kamra was better than at Mehran. Lessons have been learned and applied to the degree feasible.

 

[HRK]

Stop barking and take your fitna somewhere else. It is obvious what you are trying to do. If anyone is murtid, it is people like you.

Have you read the post completely ....or you are so stupid that it’s beyond your mental capacity.....don’t use abusive language again......

 

[Windjammer]

Is the C-4 only meant to explode through detonation, ??
It's ironic, with all the devastation, the explosives remain intact. !!

 

[A1Kaid]

Valid points to a certain extent but also a need to blend some reality into the above.

Some additional points to add to this list:

i) Can we move the bases away from populated areas where the bulk of these bases exist due to constant growth of civilian population around these areas?

ii) Can we afford/fund technology and capabilities in use in the West for perimeter defence of their bases? Can we deploy these at all of our bases?

iii) Are the security standards for individual bases regulated by the base commanders or through regulations set by the service? Are these standards/measures deemed affordable at all of the bases?

Given you have all of the above restrictions, how can one expect the military to react to these situations and then be able to secure everything 100%? All the terrorists have to do is to blow a remote controlled bomb in the vicinity of a military installation to win the propaganda war. The military has to not only defeat attacks on its locations, it has to proactively hit these people for which there is no mood. The people involved most likely were all Punjabi taliban. What if the military goes in operation cleanup style (as in Sind) against these elements in the Punjab? That to me is the key "proactive" measure that the military can take, do you think the ruling parties will allow that?

All of what you state is "tactical" protection. What we need is more than that. If I am asked to secure a site, I will ask for significant amount of funding to make the security fool proof. Do you think we have that sort of funding x number of sites to secure?

All in all, the response at Kamra was better than at Mehran. Lessons have been learned and applied to the degree feasible.

ii) Can we afford/fund technology and capabilities in use in the West for perimeter defence of their bases? Can we deploy these at all of our bases?

Yes "we" can and not sure what specific technology you're referring to but they need to be in place at all major military bases. Also this kind of operation could have been prevented by manpower alone it didn't need sophisticated technology to thwart such an attack.

iii) Are the security standards for individual bases regulated by the base commanders or through regulations set by the service? Are these standards/measures deemed affordable at all of the bases?

I would imagine security standards are or should be set by the service, "individual bases" they maybe "individual bases" by separation by land but they are all apart of a cohesive military network, these aren't like rebel outposts where there are fragmented and separate strong holds, each with their own uniqueness and standards.

If these standards aren't "affordable" then what are we doing? Why have standards in the first place? This is not the question whether these standards are affordable this is pity reasoning the question should be are these standards being reformed to the new threat and are they being executed.

 

[blain2]

And that's why these attacks despite immediate outcomes are always a success.. If nothing else they just increased the cost to Pakistani military of maintaining bases, many times over...

Many here think that just by suggesting "tighten up security" its done magically without having to worry about funding all the while the Army and the PAF are actively engaged in an enormously costly LIC.

Is the C-4 only meant to explode through detonation, ??
It's ironic, with all the devastation, the explosives remain intact. !!

You need to detonate C-4. It just does not go off by itself. Its considered a stable explosive. You can carry it around, lob it and nothing would go off unless you detonate it.

 

[A1Kaid]

Is the C-4 only meant to explode through detonation, ??
It's ironic, with all the devastation, the explosives remain intact. !!

C4 only detonates through proper detonation, shooting it doesn't detonate it.