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Attack on PAF Base Minhas

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Photos of Militants Killed In the Kamra Base Assault

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http://www.samaa.tv/urdu/urdu-news-8-16-2012-11483-1.html
 
Mate, now a days even fake encounters in wilderness get exposed, what to say of downplaying with merely three aircraft. In case some haven't noticed, after making tall claims of destroying three JF-17s, the culprits have gone all quite....sort of in a shock as to what hit them and how quickly they were taken out.

Mate, its your own countrymen who are talking about the extent of damage to the aircraft and the controversies around it.. and your own media that is going to and fro on it.. Again, why are you jumping on me ..:lol:

Mate, now a days even fake encounters in wilderness get exposed, what to say of downplaying with merely three aircraft. In case some haven't noticed, after making tall claims of destroying three JF-17s, the culprits have gone all quite....sort of in a shock as to what hit them and how quickly they were taken out.

Mate, its your own countrymen who are talking about the extent of damage to the aircraft and the controversies around it.. and your own media that is going to and fro on it.. Again, why are you jumping on me ..:lol:
 
I maybe canned for my viewpoints, whatever, here it goes:

OK, this is not directed towards anyones person, and most definitely no one should take it as such, as I see emotions run rampant on this forum!

I was amazed to see so many people jump the gun on Mastan Khan for having a differing viewpoint of a situation, a person or whatever. (only IB, had a reply that merits a kudos)

Isn't this a strategy forum, and aren't most of you so to speak "Think Tanks," shouldn't it be your job to foster critical thinking, rather than bully each and and everyone with a differing viewpoint? Or is it best to shove a badge of a *traitor*, *member of a fifth column*, *instigator* or the mostly used *naive* / *stupid* / *juvenile* ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

*QUOTE* "Critical" as used in the expression "critical thinking" connotes the importance or centrality of the thinking to an issue, question or problem of concern. "Critical" in this context does not mean "disapproval" or "negative." *UNQUOTE*

Anyhow, a very happy Eid to all my countrymen and members of this board. Cheers!
 
My Boy,

It is okay to argue with me---and you can come ut swinging as well---I don't mind---because you are my kids---if you don't learn from me and don't try it on me---who else would you try it on.

If the general had a side arm---he did not need to have struggled with the terrorist---he did not understand the threat level and paid the price with his life---.

Now---your analysis of my post is absolutely pathetic----bases have command and control centers---the base comander is required to stay in charge---to guide the retaliation----.

You kids have no clue what I am talking about---I feel sorry for the education that you have gotten about these issues---your perception of the issue is very tragic----I feel ashamed at your lack of knowledge and understanding---.
Mastan Sahib,
It's not about who you are, where you are and what you study. It's a simple matter of common sense and humanity; you see people in trouble, you try to help them out irrespective of what the SOP's are. The base commander in question, has earned my respect, he is a true hero of the nation and will be praised. With that said, it's Eid in USA, so Eid Muabarak!
 
GROUNDS FOR COURT MARTIAL OF THE BASE COMMANDER PAF MINHAS - Air Commodore Azam

1. The Base Commander is solely responsible for the Security of the Base and the protection of PAF assets on it!

2. The Base Commander did not equate this simple terrorists breach scenario (despite hard lessons from PNS Mehran and earlier attacks on Kamra) into the base security equation.

3. The Base Commander did not enhance a multi layered security system around the base especially from the point where the terrorists entered. Multi layered security ONLY exists on the entry point from GT Road whilst all other points at the base had minimum security cover.

4. At the time of the attack, the terrorists were ONLY challenged by a LONE tower security guard who responded with lethal force and laid his life in the process of doing his job valiantly. He should be given the highest honor of the land.

5. The Base Commander neglected basic military protocol and left his duties from the Base Command and Control Center to guide the QRF on ground. He either deliberately or in the heat-of-the-moment chose to pick up arms and personally go to the front line from where if he had been killed or captured there would have been an immediate breakdown of command & control and the terrorists would have made use of the situation to inflict both physical and moral damage.

6. The Base Commander did not enhance the base security around the strategic assets despite open deceleration by the Government that Pakistan is in the state of war & hence the need for extra vigilance and physical security.

I don't know about court martial, but I agree with the criticism of the base commander. After all the terrorists attacks that have happened, he was caught with his pants down. Billions of dollars worth of assets, all those people whose security is HIS responsibility. Do these people ever learn from what's happening around the country? Or does each base need its own individual terrorist attack as a wake-up call?
 
In case some of you are not familiar with Shahid Lateef, apart from once being the base commander at Kamra, he was the first PAF pilot to bring an F-16 to Pakistan.

scan0014.jpg
Thanks Windjammer for this piece of news. I have seen this photo before and always wondered who was the guy to bring first F-16 to Pakistan
 
The red spot is where "Presumably" the awacs were parked...How many check posts..or what looks like check posts on Gmaps you can count surrounding it?

7812101130_1a2b7e8030_b.jpg

That Village is the biggest issue..
Until you have civillian population centre's near military bases.. expect the same.
However.. the colonial mentality has yet to leave our military's planners..
They prefer location in terms of beauty and not safety.
 
Absolutely amazing analysis by some. In the same post the Naval base comander at Mehran is called a yellow bellied coward (for not leading from the front) AND in the same breath - the Minhas base commander is told that he has no right to exist on the planet -- because he did lead from the front. So what would you have the base comander of the next attacked base do?? Arrest all the villagers around his base well in advance and burn the villages down?? Command from the control room and get struck down as a coward?? Go lead his men in defending his base and get called an idiot for nearly giving the enemy a great prize??

The Minhas base commander showed that he will happily give up his life to defend his base - and when he showed this every other man under his command would feel obliged / honour bound to do the same. How many soldiers will contemplate falling back if their commander is fighting in front of them? It was this level of bravery and devotion to duty from everyone - from the commander at the top to the 20 year old sentry at at the bottom which averted disaster for Pakistan and PAF on 17th Aug 2012.

this is emotional rant, please spare me that next time.

burn down village and all that. Why do we have to always talk in extremes to defend an indefensible argument?

the PN leadership is criticised because it didnt even exist at the control room. Let alone being part of the response team.

it was shamelessly more interested in looking after its pristine uniform and staff cars & protocol rather than pre-empting and responding to the attack. granted that calling it a coward and yellow bellied was uncalled for but that was due to the lack of a term. it was just absent from the scene. a commander doesnt have to be standing shoulder to shoulder to its frontline troops. his command just needs to be felt and known. Only a layman would restrict himself to a physical presence A clueless and incompetent commander's presence in the battlefield can be a disaster instead of a motivation. but lets stop discussing hypothetically.

let me share something with you which you might have overlooked. in a similar situation where special forces are called in due to the nature of the job at hand,, they tell the regular soldiers and civilians to stay the hell out.
and when they commence their operation they would even handcuff and contain the friendly’s in case they don’t comply . until the mission is accomplished and threats are neutralized anyone who is not the member of the commando team is treated as a potential threat. because in the chaos its hard to confirm the identities. All such people are led to a designated area for formal identification and debrief

Now even air commodore was previously trained in special operations then his age and his position doesnt allow him to go in the harms way the way he did and took a bullet and essentially became unavailable where he was needed and gave unnecessary diversion to the tactical command of the response team.

I will stop discussing this issue any further. The criticism of PN and PAF leadership is for different reasons the former exhibited its criminal incompetence & negligence & the later is plain foolish due to an individual act of heroism which was not required.
I will not take this discussion of Air commodore’s actions vs. PN inaction any further. What I say is only my point of view nothing more and nothing less.


Now as far as the willingness to lay his life is concerned, I have a very strong view against that. The nation has spent a lot of time, money and resources for that air commodore to reach his position and he has no right to give it up his life and services belong to the state now. No soldier would be willing to become a shaheed, instead his primary concern should be success of the mission and the battle and if in performing his duties his life comes in danger and he looses it then so be it but it shouldn’t be the primary objective.

Pakistani concept of Shadah or martyrdom is absolutely screwed up to the core. If this sentence is too hard to swallow for anyone then pay attention to the prayer of the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH who asked for Allah’s, Blessing and Help in achieving the victory against the bigger and superior Mekkan force in the battle of Badr. The primary objective was the victory fort he sake of the survival of the Muslim future. Means to an end (victory over Mekkans) were faith, discipline & superior skills and leadership both military through people like Amir Hamza ra and Ali ra & spiritual though no other than Muhammad PBUH. The martyrdom of 14 was an outcome to achieve the ends not the ends themselves. Our defenders have much to learn from this battle.
 
Hi,

You know why the nation is a loser---because of thinking like this----you fail and then you want to justify the failure---. A base commander belongs in the command and control room of he base to take charge of the situation---give directives---ask for assistance and the word you people don't know----DESIGNATE AUTHORITY----.

See---I keep forgetting my roots---. This ideology of officer leading from the front keeps the rankers subjugated. Truthfully---in the end---the rankers feel impotent without their officers even though the rankers are as capable a warrior as there maybe---the sepoy who laid his life for the cause---what a warrior---.

You men praise those of doing the job of 10 people---it is a terrible pakistani indian mindset---. Successful businesses and conglomerates train each individual to do their jobs---indeed tghe leasders amongst them will carry the show----but you don't need the base commander to lead when there are 8 insurgents attacking---.

This part I agree with, but since you are aware of the Pakistani mindset.. you should know that we are incapable of showing initiative on our own unless egged on by a senior or otherwise. The Base commander did exactly that..should he have done better in his training(or rather the air force).. in showing initiative.. ?
YEs.. but you and all others are also familiar with the mindset prevalent in the Pakistani military of not rocking the boat and not questioning authority..
When no officer claps in a ceremony till the Air Chief does so, what makes you think the very officers will display initiative in a firefight. The whole system of training is pathetic throughout Pakistan's Military.

As an example I am posting a quote from ACdre Kaiser Tufails blog on his observations as Base Commander Jacobabad during the US presence there.

Early one morning, I got a call from the air traffic controller that a US Navy F-18 with a serious emergency was coming in to land at Shahbaz. His wingman was with him. The controller told me that the visibility was very bad and it had been conveyed to the pilots. A more serious issue was that both the aircraft were armed with 4,000 lbs of bombs each, as they were on a bombing mission to Afghanistan. I drove down to the de-arming area to quickly evacuate personnel, if any. There I met a USAF Warrant Officer who rechecked about the local de-arming procedure with me. I asked him where were other technical personnel, to which he replied that he, along with another technician, would take care of everything. “Has Col McCain been informed?” I asked. “Sir, I am not sure, but he need not be here. I am the Airfield Safety Officer and can handle such stuff.” After a few minutes the two F-18’s landed and taxied to where we stood. The Warrant Officer steadily went ahead, supervised insertion of the safety pins in the bombs by the armament technician and gave a thumbs up to the two F-18s to taxi back to the main tarmac. As the taxiway was blocked at the other end by PAF Mirages, the only option for the F-18s was to switch off, as a U-turn on the narrow taxi track was not possible. To my utter surprise, I saw the wings of the aircraft fold 90° up and they did the U-turns as ordinary vehicles would do on the road! As the aircraft taxied in front of me, I saw that the canopy of one F-18 had been shattered and large panels near the side and front of the cockpit were missing. I later learnt that the aircraft had a nasty scrape with the refuelling probe of an aerial refueller. The stricken aircraft switched off on the tarmac while the other F-18 did a ‘hot-refuelling’ (with engines running) and, in a matter of minutes, took off alone for a recovery on its aircraft carrier.

Back in office, I called McCain to check if he knew about the emergency. “Yes, they called me,” he replied. He understood my concern and added, “I am a C-130 guy, and I bet I would have messed up things if I’d been there. I am sure the safety officer did a good job. He is trained for it.” In the handling of this emergency, I was struck by the confidence every supervisor had in himself as well as his sub-ordinates. Authority had been duly delegated and there was no interference by the higher-ups, whatsoever. A JCO and a couple of NCOs had handled a very serious emergency with remarkable ease.

So what the Base commander did, within the confines of the system he has been trained in and operates in .. is commendable.
What he did with respect to the overall picture of dealing with terrorism is not. But blaming the base commander is like catching small fry and castrating it for no reason when the whole sea is filled with sick fish.
 
this is emotional rant, please spare me that next time.

burn down village
and all that. Why do we have to always talk in extremes to defend an indefensible argument?

the PN leadership is criticised because it didnt even exist at the control room. Let alone being part of the response team.

it was shamelessly more interested in looking after its pristine uniform and staff cars & protocol rather than pre-empting and responding to the attack. granted that calling it a coward and yellow bellied was uncalled for but that was due to the lack of a term. it was just absent from the scene. a commander doesnt have to be standing shoulder to shoulder to its frontline troops. his command just needs to be felt and known. Only a layman would restrict himself to a physical presence A clueless and incompetent commander's presence in the battlefield can be a disaster instead of a motivation. but lets stop discussing hypothetically.

let me share something with you which you might have overlooked. in a similar situation where special forces are called in due to the nature of the job at hand,, they tell the regular soldiers and civilians to stay the hell out.
and when they commence their operation they would even handcuff and contain the friendly’s in case they don’t comply . until the mission is accomplished and threats are neutralized anyone who is not the member of the commando team is treated as a potential threat. because in the chaos its hard to confirm the identities. All such people are led to a designated area for formal identification and debrief

Now even air commodore was previously trained in special operations then his age and his position doesnt allow him to go in the harms way the way he did and took a bullet and essentially became unavailable where he was needed and gave unnecessary diversion to the tactical command of the response team.

I will stop discussing this issue any further. The criticism of PN and PAF leadership is for different reasons the former exhibited its criminal incompetence & negligence & the later is plain foolish due to an individual act of heroism which was not required.
I will not take this discussion of Air commodore’s actions vs. PN inaction any further. What I say is only my point of view nothing more and nothing less.


Now as far as the willingness to lay his life is concerned, I have a very strong view against that. The nation has spent a lot of time, money and resources for that air commodore to reach his position and he has no right to give it up his life and services belong to the state now. No soldier would be willing to become a shaheed, instead his primary concern should be success of the mission and the battle and if in performing his duties his life comes in danger and he looses it then so be it but it shouldn’t be the primary objective.

Pakistani concept of Shadah or martyrdom is absolutely screwed up to the core. If this sentence is too hard to swallow for anyone then pay attention to the prayer of the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH who asked for Allah’s, Blessing and Help in achieving the victory against the bigger and superior Mekkan force in the battle of Badr. The primary objective was the victory fort he sake of the survival of the Muslim future. Means to an end (victory over Mekkans) were faith, discipline & superior skills and leadership both military through people like Amir Hamza ra and Ali ra & spiritual though no other than Muhammad PBUH. The martyrdom of 14 was an outcome to achieve the ends not the ends themselves. Our defenders have much to learn from this battle.

Awesome analysis. :police:
 
This discussion won't end pay some respect to our fallen shaheed hero Asif Ramzan.
311816_10150968217731207_388822538_n.jpg
 
So what the Base commander did, within the confines of the system he has been trained in and operates in .. is commendable.
What he did with respect to the overall picture of dealing with terrorism is not. But blaming the base commander is like catching small fry and castrating it for no reason when the whole sea is filled with sick fish.

Cost of a GDP candidate just before graduation : USD1.5 million.
Cost of GDP Group Captain / Air Cdre : Tens of millions.
Cost of experience: Irreplaceable.

Now go and figure for yourself!

This discussion won't end pay some respect to our fallen shaheed hero Asif Ramzan.
311816_10150968217731207_388822538_n.jpg
And once again we have the usual suspects with "interesting facts". :woot:
 
“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.” ― George S. Patton Jr.
That's one of my favorite quotes, and I use it in ALL my business related strategies! :enjoy:
 
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