Attack on PAF Base Minhas

[XYON]

SELF DELETE

 

[SQ8]

Now as far as the willingness to lay his life is concerned, I have a very strong view against that. The nation has spent a lot of time, money and resources for that air commodore to reach his position and he has no right to give it up his life and services belong to the state now. No soldier would be willing to become a shaheed, instead his primary concern should be success of the mission and the battle and if in performing his duties his life comes in danger and he looses it then so be it but it shouldn’t be the primary objective.

Pakistani concept of Shadah or martyrdom is absolutely screwed up to the core. If this sentence is too hard to swallow for anyone then pay attention to the prayer of the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH who asked for Allah’s, Blessing and Help in achieving the victory against the bigger and superior Mekkan force in the battle of Badr. The primary objective was the victory fort he sake of the survival of the Muslim future. Means to an end (victory over Mekkans) were faith, discipline & superior skills and leadership both military through people like Amir Hamza ra and Ali ra & spiritual though no other than Muhammad PBUH. The martyrdom of 14 was an outcome to achieve the ends not the ends themselves. Our defenders have much to learn from this battle.

Agreed.. but take in the view of the analysis of our mindset that I have posted..
In that respect.. he supposedly did well and will even be commended for it.
Now if he has been taught to think along incorrect lines..what do you do?

If people take the time out to actually read up on Islamic history and its battles through multiple authors...IB's post will make much more sense. Your death is useful only if it helped achieve something.. and a fighting Muslim has always been considered more useful than a dead one.
There were instances the prophet asked his companions for sacrifice to protect himself.. but never in vain, he knew he was important, they knew he was important.. they knew they were being asked to provide a tactical delay or advantage.. that was the prize of Shahadat.. knowing that your life was worth saving those of others and furthering the cause of Islam..
At no point are you required to be sheep in the slaughter.. which is why these TTP and other Jihadist types are sheer idiots for thinking they can take on a superior force without equipment or preparation..and when they get minced by Apache Gunships.. they claim Shahadat.. fools.

 

[Hyperion]

Calm down folks, no need to get personal!

Referring to iPhone and XYON?

That's what I thought, WTH is up with these two

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sir, I respectfully disagree with you have written here and this seems to be the mentality of the armed forces, too. That We can't take action directly due to certain Social and religious reasons.

Sir, have you heard the saying, nipping it in the bud? I'm sure you have. This is what needs to be do e here. If you continue to cater to the terrorist for the reasons you have listed then we are doomed. The country is doomed,

They attacked the army headquarter, they moved on to the Navy, inflicted heavy losses and today it's the airforce. We are not even fully sure of the extent of damage they have caused here.

If things continue this way and no action is taken against them then I can guarantee you the next attack will be at a secret nuclear facility. The army must come out of this thinking that they have to appease Asma Jahngir likes and take careful measures.

You don't win wars that way. You gots to go all out. Nip it in the bud. Destroy them right where they stand. No court proceedings, no arrests. Military justice, ya hum nehi ya woh nehi. Forget about what people are going to say, people talk, that's what they do, but theyll move on.

my dear younger Pakistani

what you are saying is a wishful thinking. we are still debating for the past ten years if the TTP actions are Islamic or not. A large population of Pindi & Islamabad is extremely radicalised & devout follower of Mollana Abdul Aziz. the issue is with the mindset.
I was only stating the facts and mourning the lack of will and ability of our state to handle these evils in the bud. give it time you will see Lal Masjid episode 2 in the near future. thats because the mindset of our majority.

 

[Developereo]

So what the Base commander did, within the confines of the system he has been trained in and operates in .. is commendable.
What he did with respect to the overall picture of dealing with terrorism is not. But blaming the base commander is like catching small fry and castrating it for no reason when the whole sea is filled with sick fish.

I agree. There is a system-wide problem of not quite accepting that we are at war, and things will get much worse once we take on the TTP full on in N. Waziristan.

We need to learn from the Americans and the Israelis about how to safeguard society in general and military assets in particular.

 

[SQ8]

Cost of a GDP candidate just before graduation : USD1.5 million.
Cost of GDP Group Captain / Air Cdre : Tens of millions.
Cost of experience: Irreplaceable.

Now go and figure for yourself!

Cost of non-responsive security .. hundreds of Millions.. one dead base commander is a non-issue then.
Remember lal Masjid.. the troops went berserk after their commander was killed..
bad in that situation.. but good in this one.
You arent dealing with JCO's and NCO's who will respond on their own..
Its a rotten system.. and it will take years to change it.

 

[Hyperion]

Its a rotten system.. and it will take years to change it.

Since I left it, I thought, maybe it would have changed for the better. But after joining this forum, I think you maybe right!

Actually it's very disheartening, and makes me extremely sad that this has escalated almost to a point of no return.

 

[tarrar]

Thanks for posting this. Shahid Lateef specificaly says that there was only 1 Awacs in the hanger that they tried to get close to and yet people are still in insisting that 2 were destroyed and a third damaged. He also goes into some detail about the response and again says it was quick and effective / adequate. I repeat - Shahid Lateef is a retired Minhas base comander and ExVCAM. He is straight talking and has no hesitation lambasting PAF if it is deserved -- eg watch his interviews after the Osama raid. Unlike rumour mongers - he knows what he is talking about.

Simple & straight forward answers by Retd. Air Marshal Shahid Lateef & good to see that US name is coming openly now & hopefully more names will come out in the open of those countries who also funded & helped these terrorists. What I would like to know which aircraft was damaged in the base, what I have learned that it was IL 78 that was ONLY damaged.

Also what I am seeing over here Indians are spreading massive lies over here in this thread.

 

[forcetrip]

I have been led from the front and I will be respecting that person till the end of my days. No one really knows if he was charging into the terrorists screaming. He could have been at a safe distance fulfilling his duty and got wounded. Right now a lot of conflicting reports are there and we should wait for more details. He was a base commander and his base was under attack. It was the ultimate test of his position which he passed with flying colors. Woulda Coulda scenarios will not change the outcome in this particular instance.

 

[XYON]

I don't know about court martial, but I agree with the criticism of the base commander. After all the terrorists attacks that have happened, he was caught with his pants down. Billions of dollars worth of assets, all those people whose security is HIS responsibility. Do these people ever learn from what's happening around the country? Or does each base need its own individual terrorist attack as a wake-up call?

The Base Commander of PAF Base Minhas did what one would expect from a unit head of any of the Talibaan rag-tag fighters and not what one would expect from a seasoned and battle-hardened professional military commander. I would be the first one to have praised the Base Commander to take up arms in case the Base was being over run by 200-300 armed TTP thugs and there would have been a fire fight in every nook. If for 9 intruding thugs an AIR COMMODORE along with his GROUP CAPTAIN and WING COMMANDER has to come out to join the fist fight along with the grunts then I am seriously worried about the future of this Air Force! In short, the base had no security detailed, the base commander was caught with his pants down as your say, and he his done this to salvage his carrier which I sure sure hope comes to an abrupt end with some jail time after the inquiry commission report comes out!

 

[SQ8]

In short, the base had no security detailed,

Again.. incorrect and ill-informed conclusions.
What do you know of the base security measures?
Has there been any less.. there would have been a Mehran redux..
There was a system that worked like clockwork..
however.. where there was pre-emptive measures required.. there was none.

 

[KRAIT]

The Base Commander of PAF Base Minhas did what one would expect from a unit head of any of the Talibaan rag-tag fighters and not what one would expect from a seasoned and battle-hardened professional military commander. I would be the first one to have praised the Base Commander to take up arms in case the Base was being over run by 200-300 armed TTP thugs and there would have been a fire fight in every nook. If for 9 intruding thugs an AIR COMMODORE along with his GROUP CAPTAIN and WING COMMANDER has to come out to join the fist fight along with the grunts then I am seriously worried about the future of this Air Force! In short, the base had no security detailed, the base commander was caught with his pants down as your say, and he his done this to salvage his carrier which I sure sure hope comes to an abrupt end with some jail time after the inquiry commission report comes out!

I was watching a documentary on Roman Invasion of Britain. In initial attacks, one of the leader, close to be a king of British tribe got killed in the battle as he was fighting along with his men. You know what happened, and how scholars defined it. They say it broke the morale of the British soldiers as they were left with no leader and lost the battle too easily than expected.

In today's world, these things matter. I have already said, one bullet to base commander in initial part of the attack would have left all the soldiers without any officer to arrange and make real time strategy, not to forget loss of key point of communication between the soldiers fighting and special commandos that entered later on. Go through Irfan's post, he has pointed out the commando operation and that shows the importance of ranking officer in that situation. It would have been more chaotic situation if that officer was killed.

BTW I don't question the officer's bravery.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Irfan---Asim---Njam---what iif there were 20 of them---what would have happened then.

It is being stated that the sepoy who died---gave them 10--20 minutes time to get together to respond---has any body caught onto that---10 minutes in a fire fight is a life time---20 minutes is an eternity---.

What that means---is that there was absolutely no preparation to counter the strike---. My god----how pathtic---you people are hounding on me---it is you whom you should be hounding at---you specially Asim---and you too Najam---other kids---hehnnnn---you are too innocnet.

I am not hounding on you hehe
I find your analysis on the extreme side but I do agree with the thinking to some extent.

I dont want to hypothesize the outcome if the number of attackers was many fold. maybe they would have hand been identified earlier as its hard to conceal or in the worse case scenario they would have overwhelmed the base defenders.

thats how the guerrillas operate, they give the impression of attack from everywhere and keep the defenders puzzled about the direction of the attack, intended target and the number of attackers.

the on ground defenders are only a stop gap, there is always going to be a delay in the actual & "elite" response force (the less the time the better). I dont agree that there was no preparation. they were confined in good (subjective term ) time and their performance was very lacklustre compared to other attacks.

is there any room for improvement? hell yea.

how?

more electronic surveillance and sensors for vaster areas and front line sentries trained at highest possible manner in terms of threat identification, weapons proficiency and mental alertness so that the response transition to the heavy cavalry is smooth and seamless.

in most ideal situation, the perimeter defence should take out all the intruders before they get even close to the external boundary. this is what I will like to be acceptable if the terrorist attack has already commenced.

please spell it out how exactly would you have liked the response once the terrorists had infiltrated. I want to be on the same page with you. given the information available, I am satisfied with the performance. convince me otherwise

 

[Safriz]

The alleged area from where Attackers entered or tried to enter...again we see many Watch towers/Check posts..
The probable AWACS hanger is indicated by Red paint...The oil tanks that caught fire are indicated by Volcano ..
The problems is this area are many...

1) Village edge is less than 200 meters from The wall..
2) The wall itself has many bends and corners here,unlike the rest of the boundary wall around the airbase which is in long stretches of straight lines..but here attackers could take cover behind behind bends and corners of the wall itself...and keep safe from Incoming fire from watch towers.....
3) There are a few hills in this area,at least one is higher than watch towers and anybody at that vantage point can take a direct shot at sentries posted on watch towers...

But at lest three watch towers are within 200 meters of the Hanger and that's well within range of even assault rifles,and i assume the sentries must have something more powerful than an assault rifle?
and we see two walls..one outer and an inner wall closer to the hanger...Crossing both walls while taking fire from Three or four Watch towers is a bit superman-ish.
Attackers could take cover behind trees and bends in the wall,but once in the clear they immediately would have come under fire from 3 or more towers.....
I don't know what type of RPG they had,but normally RPG is only effective at 200 meters range and has a blast radius of 10 meters maximum..
It doesn't look possible that they could have come even within 200 meters of this hanger,and even if they came close then due to vegetation and uneven ground it wouldn't have been that easy to take a clear shot of the hanger.

 

[Hyperion]

however.. where there was pre-emptive measures required.. there was none.

Then why not spend a little moolah from CSF on something similar:

Army uses radar to detect suicide bombers | TG Daily

I mean, I can name a few dozen similar system with wide-band, large area detection capabilities, and for gods sake, I am just a Civi at the moment!

Additionally, I can name 50 "unconventional" systems to subdue an insurgent, just on the back of my hand.

Subdue: Dead men don't talk! Therefore, good for interrogation by the Powindhas. And I love the tactics they apply for 'information mining'. I have seen it, and it works like a charm