Attack on PAF Base Minhas

[KRAIT]

Instead of looking for foreign elements, it should be first priority that why new measures weren't taken after Mehran especially when it showed the future attacks on most valued target is possible. If you fail at one military base, then first response should be to enhance security of similar establishments.

Secondly, is the lack of emergency protocol when ISI already issued warning which would have stopped the attack on the preliminary stage if Mehran attack was taken as subject to study and formulate such protocols. Not saying, they weren't there. Point is make changes to the new threat.

If we look at 9/11, it changed the entire security structure especially for emergency situations. Faults are there but it has made things difficult for such attacks. Now the terrorists have to go back and make other strategy to attack.

If there was enough changes visible in security of these bases, the terrorists would have taken other approach. They didn't even change their Modus Operandi and weapons of choice. Coz once you improve things, change in strategy and weapons to be used, are considered according to new security arrangements.

I won't be surprised if another attack includes stinger missiles or other anti aircraft missiles and more sophisticated weapons.

 

[XYON]

GROUNDS FOR COURT MARTIAL OF THE BASE COMMANDER PAF MINHAS - Air Commodore Azam

1. The Base Commander is solely responsible for the Security of the Base and the protection of PAF assets on it!

2. The Base Commander did not equate this simple terrorists breach scenario (despite hard lessons from PNS Mehran and earlier attacks on Kamra) into the base security equation.

3. The Base Commander did not enhance a multi layered security system around the base especially from the point where the terrorists entered. Multi layered security ONLY exists on the entry point from GT Road whilst all other points at the base had minimum security cover.

4. At the time of the attack, the terrorists were ONLY challenged by a LONE tower security guard who responded with lethal force and laid his life in the process of doing his job valiantly. He should be given the highest honor of the land.

5. The Base Commander neglected basic military protocol and left his duties from the Base Command and Control Center to guide the QRF on ground. He either deliberately or in the heat-of-the-moment chose to pick up arms and personally go to the front line from where if he had been killed or captured there would have been an immediate breakdown of command & control and the terrorists would have made use of the situation to inflict both physical and moral damage.

6. The Base Commander did not enhance the base security around the strategic assets despite open deceleration by the Government that Pakistan is in the state of war & hence the need for extra vigilance and physical security.

 

[Kompromat]

 

[Thorough Pro]

Hi Mastan,

Thanks for your eye opening posts on the subject. Some may find your posts to be arrogant and rude, but they are missing the real point here. With all due respect and salutations to the brave soldiers who faught back and neutralized the enemy we need to analyze the whole situation piece by ppiece and learn from our mistakes.

Despite the fact that all terrorists were killed and as stated by the PAF officials that no major damage was sustained, this was a MISERABLE FAILURE of security and who ever was responsible should be court martialled.

Regarding base commander's role, I should say it was a brave blunder. In a tank there are three people, Driver, Commander and Firer, imagine what will happen if the commander abandons his role of hunting and locking the enemy and joins the firer in firing, Millitary leaderships' job is to live in the future, to provide vision, to anticipate future, soldiers job is to live and die today.

Base commander's job to save Kamra should have started the day first such attack was launched on any millitary installation in Pakistan, not on the night when the attack actually happened on Kamra. The fact that the attack happened and enemy succeeded in entering the base is the fist failure, regardless of the outcome. The whole purpose of the security measures is to avaoid / eliminate any such attack from ever happening and success is to neutralize the enemy outside your green zone, not in the red zone.

Second failure was the time it took for the response team to arrive and engage the enemy, it clearly shows there was no contingency response team ready to deal with the situation which shows total lack of preparedness.

Third failure was the base commander exposing himself to danger. Wars are fought both on psych and field. Victory on psych is plays a bigger role than victory in the field. how does it sound tp read "terrorists attack and kill PAF base commander in his base"?

fourth failure was the use of C130 immediately after the attack, what if there were one or two hiding away from the scene with manpads? what the heck are drones for?

Why aren't ther two or three attack helis equiped with night vision and precision fire weapons on each base, always ready to respond to such contingencies?

How much does it cost to install motion sensors around critical installations worth billions?

The most important question is have we learned anything now? apparently we did not learn any thing from Mehran.

Hi,

No---it is not your fault----you still thinking like an innocent---you have very poor training if there is any---you still have not learnt to think on your own---you still don't have the ability to think on your own---it is due the our cultural heritage and uprbrining where young men and women are not aloowed to think oput of the box----.

Read my posts kid read my posts---. When you become the base commander 30 years from now and are facing similiar issues---just remember my words---they will carry you through hard times---.


But I like you so far---if you bang your head against me---you might take back a piece of me stuck to your head---and when it is next to your head---guess what---there is only one place it can go---get into your head---. Guess what---it is a win win situation for you and for me---.

Now as for the general---a little brains would have been an icing on the cake.

 

[XYON]

Hi Mastan,

Thanks for your eye opening posts on the subject. Some may find your posts to be arrogant and rude, but they are missing the real point here. With all due respect and salutations to the brave soldiers who faught back and neutralized the enemy we need to analyze the whole situation piece by ppiece and learn from our mistakes.

Despite the fact that all terrorists were killed and as stated by the PAF officials that no major damage was sustained, this was a MISERABLE FAILURE of security and who ever was responsible should be court martialled.

Regarding base commander's role, I should say it was a brave blunder. In a tank there are three people, Driver, Commander and Firer, imagine what will happen if the commander abandons his role of hunting and locking the enemy and joins the firer in firing, Millitary leaderships' job is to live in the future, to provide vision, to anticipate future, soldiers job is to live and die today.

Base commander's job to save Kamra should have started the day first such attack was launched on any millitary installation in Pakistan, not on the night when the attack actually happened on Kamra. The fact that the attack happened and enemy succeeded in entering the base is the fist failure, regardless of the outcome. The whole purpose of the security measures is to avaoid / eliminate any such attack from ever happening and success is to neutralize the enemy outside your green zone, not in the red zone.

Second failure was the time it took for the response team to arrive and engage the enemy, it clearly shows there was no contingency response team ready to deal with the situation which shows total lack of preparedness.

Third failure was the base commander exposing himself to danger. Wars are fought both on psych and field. Victory on psych is plays a bigger role than victory in the field. how does it sound tp read "terrorists attack and kill PAF base commander in his base"?

fourth failure was the use of C130 immediately after the attack, what if there were one or two hiding away from the scene with manpads? what the heck are drones for?

Why aren't ther two or three attack helis equiped with night vision and precision fire weapons on each base, ever ready to respond
to such contingencies?

How much does it cost to install motion sensors around critical installations worth billions?

The most important question is have we learned anything now? apparently we did not learn any thing from Mehran.

Thorough Pro! Right you are in every respect! Simple reply is that most of our security apparatus is ironically PENNY WISE AND POUND FOOLISH! Simply put, in order to defeat the terrorist you need to think like one!

 

[newdelhinsa]

I have one question that has not been answered in this thread. Regardless of whether the terrorists intended to target the AWACS or not, since the time of attack, why were these important assets not "taken away". I mean at the first sign of trouble, should the have not flown off the base and be safe from a ground attack? Agreed it is fraught with danger in itself with any shoulder fired missiles, but in the case of an big assault by an enemy, would these not be sitting ducks?
Whats the use of force multipliers if they can be taken out at bases by teams of 9-10 terrorists. If there was a bigger team say 20 terrorists? would the outcome have been different. What if they carried any shoulder fired missiles?

Well Whatever is happening is quite new but dangerous for all of us.

To operate in less number is the key for terrorists otherwise a large group might have been tipped off or hunted down at nearest on road check post many KM before the base.

You do not need a stinger or RPG to bring a flying plane down a bullet could have done the same, heck a bird can do the same. It would have been more dangerous and had made them more vulnerable I mean trying to make planes take off from the air strip when base is engaged in gun battle inside.

Also It would depend on the status of the landed plane i.e. a parked plan doesn't mean its ready to fly at any disposal especially big planes

The only thing which go in favour is the sheer size of the base, scattering of assets and barriers/buildings engineered in such a way that important places becomes less exposed to ground attacks from outside or intruder sneaking in from periphery, also the distance from each parked planes; better apart with bulwarks around. Rest should be left on security guarding bases and in this case they have done a good job.

Having said that we all are just saying things for sake of saying but I am 1000% sure that PAF, PA have great minds, have done far more better things in all regards and fields we could ever imagine.

The only failure I see in these attacks is two words ''arms control'' the GoP's inefficiency to control arms especially more lethal and long range, the failure of population not alarming authorities when seeing or knowing someone having the access to the same.

When you see some thing wrong inform the authorities, how difficult is this for people of Pakistan ?

 

[OrionHunter]

Hi,

You know why the nation is a loser---because of thinking like this----you fail and then you want to justify the failure---. A base commander belongs in the command and control room of he base to take charge of the situation---give directives---ask for assistance and the word you people don't know----DESIGNATE AUTHORITY----.

Spot on! The problem with many out here is their thorough lack of knowledge of military affairs, but just go blustering on like they think they are the progeny of Clausewitz or Capt Liddell Hart without even knowing what holding a gun is like!

The SOP is clear. The base commander as in this case, should have been in the ops room or control room to manage and coordinate the operation being executed under his overall command. After all, there were troops from a number of different organizations involved that had to be briefed, deployed and finally launched into a counter attack against the terrorists. A commander cannot do all this if he himself is personally involved in the firefight. If this base commander was running around looking for the terrorists, then who was coordinating the operation? Who was giving the orders? Or was this supposed to be an uncoordinated free-for-all?

Bottom line: The base commander running all over the place looking for terrorists leaving his post in the ops room, (where he should have been to coordinate and control the op), was the dumbest thing to do! Period!

 

[Nishan_101]

I think it was better for PAF to gone for 7 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs along with 4 for transport and training purposes. We can also let PIA to buy 15 Saab-2000 for Transport purposes as its better and efficient plane. These 26 planes will be able to be over hauled at PAC Kamra and can save a lot of money in future as well and can create a lot of Jobs. I have some sources in PIA who told me that these turbo props are basically the cash machines for us and we make a lot of money from them so I also think that buy 21 Saab-2000 for the PIA would be much better. Although it can also used as an MPA and PN cold have a mix of some P-3C and 7 Saab-2000 MPAs. More over 5-7 as SIGNIT/ELINT or intelligence aircraft for PAA instead of the US ones which we gained.

So if we would be able to made up such a decision in 2004-2005 then an order for:
11 Saab-2000 AEW&C and transport/training for PAF
7 Saab-2000 MPA for PN
5-7 Saab-2000 SIGNIT/ELINT or intelligence aircraft for PAA
21 SIGNIT/ELINT transport for PIA

Can be made to SAAB Group for newer build aircraft this would allow our own engineers and technicians to join their team in Sweden to work with them to learn from them as well as SAAB will gain a new production line open and creating jobs there.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I think it was better for PAF to gone for 7 Saab-2000 AEW&Cs along with 4 for transport and training purposes. We can also let PIA to buy 15 Saab-2000 for Transport purposes as its better and efficient plane. These 26 planes will be able to be over hauled at PAC Kamra and can save a lot of money in future as well and can create a lot of Jobs. I have some sources in PIA who told me that these turbo props are basically the cash machines for us and we make a lot of money from them so I also think that buy 21 Saab-2000 for the PIA would be much better. Although it can also used as an MPA and PN cold have a mix of some P-3C and 7 Saab-2000 MPAs. More over 5-7 as SIGNIT/ELINT or intelligence aircraft for PAA instead of the US ones which we gained.

So if we would be able to made up such a decision in 2004-2005 then an order for:
11 Saab-2000 AEW&C and transport/training for PAF
7 Saab-2000 MPA for PN
5-7 Saab-2000 SIGNIT/ELINT or intelligence aircraft for PAA
21 SIGNIT/ELINT transport for PIA

Can be made to SAAB Group for newer build aircraft this would allow our own engineers and technicians to join their team in Sweden to work with them to learn from them as well as SAAB will gain a new production line open and creating jobs there.

While that seems to be a nice enough Plan; the SAAB 2000 line is already closed down. Even the PAF SAABs are re-furbished, pre-owned airframes.

 

[Windjammer]

Walikum Hi Mastan Khan,

Sir, I am somewhat dismayed by your assumptions, calculations and conclusions. Albeit, other gentleman have answered your dilemma amicably, let me ask you bluntly, if a burglar was trying to break into your house in the wee hours, would you stand around until the police arrives, hope some neighbour will notice and come for your help or simply confront the culprit even if it means launching an attack with your walking stick. !!!
You are making it sound as if there were no pilots available hence the base commander had to fly the mission.
This was only a natural reaction from a man in charge of his establishment. Is there anything to suggest what the base commander was doing at that time on that special night, sleeping, praying, preparing for his fast. ???
All salutes to him for leading from the front and setting an example. Let's not assume what could have happened since most of us are not in a position to even imagine what procedures were in place and what actions were executed, however all in all it seems the operation was regular as clockwork.

 

[KRAIT]

Walikum Hi Mastan Khan,

Sir, I am somewhat dismayed by your assumptions, calculations and conclusions. Albeit, other gentleman have answered your dilemma amicably, let me ask you bluntly, if a burglar was trying to break into your house in the wee hours, would you stand around until the police arrives, hope some neighbour will notice and come for your help or simply confront the culprit even if it means launching an attack with your walking stick. !!!
You are making it sound as if there were no pilots available hence the base commander had to fly the mission.
This was only a natural reaction from a man in charge of his establishment. Is there anything to suggest what the base commander was doing at that time on that special night, sleeping, praying, preparing for his fast. ???
All salutes to him for leading from the front and setting an example. Let's not assume what could have happened since most of us are not in a position to even imagine what procedures were in place and what actions were executed, however all in all it seems the operation was regular as clockwork.

You are right about leading with an example, but if he would have got shot at the first encounter, who would have guided his men. There is a reason why he is called base commander and not other name.

Analogy of thief is not right here.

Why do we have chain of commands ? He was at his rank due to his leadership skill and this require coordinating the attack rather than indulging with enemy at forefront making the entire structure vulnerable of higher authority.

One bullet and the soldiers under him would have no leader. Difference is an officer can fight as well as make strategy at the same time. When bullets are being fired, its the survival instinct that get over a soldier. Few can work strategies while fighting like that Sepoy did, keeping himself safe for too long to engage those attackers.

In history, do you see anywhere, the leader attacking the opponent first. Its work of the soldiers under his command that has to be guided and strike the first blow.

One risk entire team if the leader gets killed, as there won't anyone to coordinate them and when enemy is well trained, you have to have someone who do the thinking.

 

[Roybot]

Walikum Hi Mastan Khan,

Sir, I am somewhat dismayed by your assumptions, calculations and conclusions. Albeit, other gentleman have answered your dilemma amicably, let me ask you bluntly, if a burglar was trying to break into your house in the wee hours, would you stand around until the police arrives, hope some neighbour will notice and come for your help or simply confront the culprit even if it means launching an attack with your walking stick. !!

Knee Jerk reaction is for civilians, a military professional is usually trained to do just the opposite. There should be no place for impulsive and miscalculated reactions in a military operation.

 

[Windjammer]

Knee Jerk reaction is for civilians, a military professional is usually trained to do just the opposite. There should be no place for impulsive and miscalculated reactions in a military operation.

It all sounds good when we talk by the book, but as i said no one is quite sure of the actual ground realities.
Did he got shot while leading a counter assault or just got caught in the cross fire, maybe running around making sure all assets were secure.
It's also worth remembering, if in a war like situation, if the base commander is hit, there are certain procedures to follow to keep the base operations running in a manner.

 

[foxbat]

It all sounds good when we talk by the book, but as i said no one is quite sure of the actual ground realities.
Did he got shot while leading a counter assault or just got caught in the cross fire, maybe running around making sure all assets were secure.
It's also worth remembering, if in a war like situation, if the base commander is hit, there are certain procedures to follow to keep the base operations running in a manner.

A base commander running around to ensure assets are secured again brings forth the points raised by MK.. Which is lack of readiness.. Though I understand MK's point, but still there is something admirable about a general getting injured in a firefight along with his men that you cant deny.. Strategy be damned...

 

[Jango]

The red spot is where "Presumably" the awacs were parked...How many check posts..or what looks like check posts on Gmaps you can count surrounding it?

Those are not checkposts, they are sentry posts. Check posts check people passing through them, i.e on the main gate.