Aselsan Leopard-II Upgrade

[Jigs]

So you deny simple fact that long barel tends to bend more and its harder to stabilize than short?

NO i deny the fact that the German 120mm L/55 is less accurate then the L/44 offering as both testing backed by my links show. You deny this and claim you have physics to back this up. I guess the Germans who have been designing and self producing tanks for over a century don't know any better. You have zero evidence zip none to disprove the characteristics of the gun. After all how would you ? You also produce German guns under license.

Good stick with 60 years old failed experience. I prefer to stick with modern experience.

To even compare Israeli experience from a insurgency on the experience the Germans have on tank warfare since WW2 is laughable. Keep begging for more of those submarines too after all 60 years of failed experience backs them.

I fired these HESH rounds myself. HESH was introduced not because its so good against buildings, but because it was mulipurpose: it could hit bunkers, infantry and tanks with RHA armor. But its far from ideal: it has thin hull and cant penetrate hard targets and gives few fragments, on the other hand HE u can set on deleayed explosion inside building.

Sure you have. HESH has multipurpose characteristic but excels at bringing buildings down. Delaying a HE fuse to blow inside the building would not also translate into bringing the building down while the HESH directly attacks the structure with high explosives. HE may not even penetrate the building if you decided to delay the fuse if it is reinforced you would be depending on kinetic energy alone.

L44 guns that are produced today are different from L44 guns produced in 80-es. They have increased pressure and accuracy.

Obviously since manufacturing practices and technology advance. Yet i never claimed simply making a tank gun bigger will always translate to the great results the Germans are achieving with their new gun. 125mm guns Russia uses are far less accurate even though they are a larger round and are longer to boot. That would have to do with the ballistic characteristics of the 125mm gun and its manufacturing process. Of course the FCS also adds to this (Russian FCS is not on par with western standards)

 

[500]

NO i deny the fact that the German 120mm L/55 is less accurate then the L/44 offering as both testing backed by my links show.

First of all they did not say how they measured that accuracy: after first round or after 10 round or after 20 rounds. And stabilization obviously is reduced too. And also unclear which L44 guns they are comparing, new or old ones.

You also produce German guns under license.

No, actually Germans produce our rounds under license.

To even compare Israeli experience from a insurgency on the experience the Germans have on tank warfare since WW2 is laughable. Keep begging for more of those submarines too after all 60 years of failed experience backs them.

Insurgency? We led largest tank battles since Kursk. Americans too. What did Germans do since 60 years old failure?

Sure you have. HESH has multipurpose characteristic but excels at bringing buildings down. Delaying a HE fuse to blow inside the building would not also translate into bringing the building down while the HESH directly attacks the structure with high explosives.

You can set HE into direct attack as well, this mode is used mainly to create breaches in walls for own infantry. And u can set it into delayed explosion this mode is used to destroy hardened targets and kill everyone inside building. With HESH u have only one option.

HE may not even penetrate the building if you decided to delay the fuse if it is reinforced you would be depending on kinetic energy alone.

If HE does not penetrate and explodes inside the wall it still will cause much more damage than HESH.

By the way, you can attach fins to HESH round exactly like they are attached to HE. But no one bothered to do that. Why? - Because HESH is outdated round.

Obviously since manufacturing practices and technology advance. Yet i never claimed simply making a tank gun bigger will always translate to the great results the Germans are achieving with their new gun.

US M829A3/L44 gives better results than German DM63/L55.

 

[500]

The round is a modification of the M830A1 (MPAT) where the front fuze is replaced with a steel nose. This provides penetration into the obstacle before detonation. The M908 has demonstrated performance better than the 165mm M123A1 HEP.

ATK - Conventional 120mm Tank Ammunition: ATK's 120mm ammunition is the most advanced in the world

120mm M908 is better than 165mm HESH.

 

[Jigs]

First of all they did not say how they measured that accuracy: after first round or after 10 round or after 20 rounds. And stabilization obviously is reduced too. And also unclear which L44 guns they are comparing, new or old ones.

Your physics also never came in to play. They are comparing it to the guns on the Leopard2A4 genius what else do you think they are comparing to ? Since that is what they are replacing.

No, actually Germans produce our rounds under license.

They have their own rounds also are you saying Israeli doesn't produce their Merkava guns under license ? Because they surely do.

Insurgency? We led largest tank battles since Kursk. Americans too. What did Germans do since 60 years old failure?

Your tanks were not involved you had U.S. M60s and Centirons. Also the Germans dominated WW2 tank warfare with their own tanks the Panzer was a masterpiece in engineering. The only reason they lost was because of mass low quality tanks and diminished industrial production.

You can set HE into direct attack as well, this mode is used mainly to create breaches in walls for own infantry. And u can set it into delayed explosion this mode is used to destroy hardened targets and kill everyone inside building. With HESH u have only one option.

Which is ideal for demolition of buildings.

If HE does not penetrate and explodes inside the wall it still will cause much more damage than HESH.

If it maybe to stuck in the wall it could bring the building down like the point of the HESH round is.

US M829A3/L44 gives better results than German DM63/L55.

Your comparing different rounds that makes perfect sense. A source ? No ? yeah didnt think so. This is a mute point in itself considering both rounds an put any modern MBT away. L/55 could probably do it with the M829A3 at longer ranges too.

 

[karaislam]

of course l55 cannon is better.but in mountainus and forests area shorter l44 is better.

also usa rounds has more kinetic energy than german ones.

jew guy is right about power case.US M829A3/L44 gives better results than German DM63/L55.

 

[500]

Your physics also never came in to play. They are comparing it to the guns on the Leopard2A4 genius what else do you think they are comparing to ? Since that is what they are replacing.

Leopard 2A4? Are you sure? Why not Leopard 2A5? And once again without exact data how they compared it worth nothing. You can fire rounds in static from cold gun and say: woo hoo same accuracy! But firing on move and from hot gun would give different results.

They have their own rounds also are you saying Israeli doesn't produce their Merkava guns under license ? Because they surely do.

105-mm gun was under British license, but 120-mm is own design.

Your tanks were not involved you had U.S. M60s and Centirons.

We modified these tanks and they used mainly Israeli rounds. Also even when u fight with foreign tanks you still gain experience and know what is better for u. Also in 1982 we used our own tanks against Syrians.

Also the Germans dominated WW2 tank warfare with their own tanks the Panzer was a masterpiece in engineering. The only reason they lost was because of mass low quality tanks and diminished industrial production.

Mongols had best army 700 years ago and their empire last much much longer than Third Reich, I would better ask them.

Which is ideal for demolition of buildings.

They suck compare to M908. As I said, no one makes HESH rounds anymore and for good reason.

Your comparing different rounds that makes perfect sense. A source ? No ? yeah didnt think so. This is a mute point in itself considering both rounds an put any modern MBT away. L/55 could probably do it with the M829A3 at longer ranges too.

Then why US did not make L55 gun? Are they stupid?