Aselsan Leopard-II Upgrade

[CaptainPrice]

Ah well...Nice

 

[Nutuk]

Turret tests are continuing

 

[Jigs]

I think still it has L/44 gun !! But if we change the gun with L/55 it will be 2A6 ...

L/44 gun is still a fine gun but the L/55 simply puts out more range. I would have liked it if we could have integrated that into the program. Still the current upgrade if preformed on all our Leopard 2s will serve as a effective stop gap till altay comes in. We still Lack in MBT numbers though. 170 M60T (Sabra MK II) and Leopard2NG 298 if all get the upgrade and that is 468 modern tanks with the Leopard2NGs being the only fully up to date ones. The rest of our stuff is outdated and really not very useful besides stationary fire support and night operations.

 

[Jigs]

Turret tests are continuing

What is that part behind the Bore evacuator it looks like some kind of armoring of the turret ? I think it might be part of the modular armor kit they are going to put on the tank.

 

[500]

I think still it has L/44 gun !! But if we change the gun with L/55 it will be 2A6 ...

L55 increases penetration but reduces accuracy and mobility. Its not necessary good.

 

[Jigs]

L55 increases penetration but reduces accuracy and mobility. Its not necessary good.

The overall velocity of the round is increased but where did you hear it reduced accuracy ? If that was the case many next gen MBTs would not be switching over to it they would keep the older guns. Altay is also rumored to have a L/55 type gun. Accuracy depends more on how well the barrel is manufactured and the tanks FCS system then the length of the barrel and the higher velocity of the rounds.

Where did you hear a longer barrel reduced accuracy ? I doubt the added weight would translate into any mobility lose as well. This is a longer barrel not a 125mm or higher tank gun.

During the extensive trials programme with prototype 120 mm L55 weapons, the hit accuracy was tested with existing ammunition as well as with the latest kinetic energy types such as the DM43A1 and the DM53. The results show the same dispersion characteristics as the current 120 mm L44. Trials have shown that the lengthening of the barrel results in an increase of muzzle energy of about 14 per cent when compared with the latest field APFSDS round.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3594.html

DM53 APFSDS-T When fired from either an L/44 or L/55 gun barrel, accuracy is stated to be 0.2 mil.

http://www..com/articles/-Ammunitio...3-and-DM63-LKE-II-APFSDS-T-round-Germany.html

 

[500]

The overall velocity of the round is increased but where did you hear it reduced accuracy ?

The longer is gun the more it bends after firing some rounds and the harder it is to stabilize on move.

If that was the case many next gen MBTs would not be switching over to it they would keep the older guns.

If there were only pros and no cons in long barrels everyone would switch to them.

 

[Jigs]

The longer is gun the more it bends after firing some rounds and the harder it is to stabilize on move.

That depends on the manufacturing process and disipline. You saw this with a lot with 125mm Russian guns for obvious reasons. I doubt the Germans have this issue.

If there were only pros and no cons in long barrels everyone would switch to them.

L/55 i believe will eventually become the standard. Tests reveal it can keep the same accuracy of the L/44. Smaller tanks keeping the L/44 is understandable but most of the bigger ones will make the switch.

 

[500]

That depends on the manufacturing process and disipline. You saw this with a lot with 125mm Russian guns for obvious reasons. I doubt the Germans have this issue.

All guns bend, thats physics. Thermal sleeves reduce that, but they still bend.

L/55 i believe will eventually become the standard.

So far only few European countries with no modern battle experience adopted it.

Tests reveal it can keep the same accuracy of the L/44.

First rounds static could be.

Smaller tanks keeping the L/44 is understandable but most of the bigger ones will make the switch.

M1A2 SEP, Merkava Mk4, Strv 122 are everything but small.

 

[Jigs]

All guns bend, thats physics. Thermal sleeves reduce that, but they still bend.

yes i know all guns bend when heated and i know what a thermal sleeve does yet the accuracy of the German L/55 is the same so it has no effect on it. Better manufacturing of barrels negate distortions.

So far only few European countries with no modern battle experience adopted it.

The list will get bigger as time goes on SK also uses it in the K-2. The Challenger 2 L30 rifled gun is also L/55 calibre

M1A2 SEP, Merkava Mk4, Strv 122 are everything but small.

All in good time. The move to larger and more capable guns has been seen throughout tank evolution.

 

[500]

yes i know all guns bend when heated and i know what a thermal sleeve does yet the accuracy of the German L/55 is the same so it has no effect on it. Better manufacturing of barrels negate distortions.

SImilary manufactured guns L44 wil be more accurate.

The list will get bigger as time goes on SK also uses it in the K-2. The Challenger 2 L30 rifled gun is also L/55 calibre

SK has no any experience, Challender gun is old they wanted to replace it.

All in good time. The move to larger and more capable guns has been seen throughout tank evolution.

They use more capable guns but same length.

 

[Jigs]

SImilary manufactured guns L44 wil be more accurate.

Says who is there any credible testing that shows this ? More specifically on the Rheinmetall guns ? All the info i provided you says other wise so i will stick with that. The Rheinmetall L/44 is outranged by the L/55 as well as out powered while maintaining accuracy of popular rounds. Why else would the Germans choose it for their newer Variants. I will rely on German Tank expertise and testing on this one.

SK has no any experience, Challenger gun is old they wanted to replace it.

I doubt they will they use a rifled gun so they can fire their HESH rounds. Which obliterate anything concrete far better then other round types. Perfect for Urban warfare. The only reason they are considering Smoothbore is because of NATO and they were considering the L/55 gun from Germany. It was logistics(in the form of ammunition) more then performance.

They use more capable guns but same length.

There has been many different variations on caliber and gun sizes since WW1.

 

[500]

Says who

Says physics. Between two guns based on same technology L55 will be less accurate.

I will rely on German Tank expertise and testing on this one.

I'll relly on US and Israeli experience which is tenfold bigger.

I doubt they will they use a rifled gun so they can fire their HESH rounds. Which obliterate anything concrete far better then other round types. Perfect for Urban warfare.

Actually regular HE and especially M908 are better.

There has been many different variations on caliber and gun sizes since WW1.

New 120 mm guns have increased pressure and accuracy but same length.

 

[Jigs]

Says physics. Between two guns based on same technology L55 will be less accurate.

So you have no proof just a assumption. Oh nvm you say your source is Physics ? Well i will stick my with source of actual testing and the common sense that a longer barrel will provide longer range and higher energy behind the round and even more accuracy.

I'll relly on US and Israeli experience which is tenfold bigger.

I will stick with the people that have been rolling out the worlds best MBTs before Israel was even founded.

Actually regular HE and especially M908 are better.

You know making stuff up for the sake of arguing is not going to get you anywhere. HESH rounds are the premier demolition round and bunker busting round. Look it up. They also hold longer ranges.

New 120 mm guns have increased pressure and accuracy but same length.

Obviously Since most of the world under license manufactures German tank guns they are the same length. But the L/55 is not the same length as the L/44 so no they are not the same length.

 

[500]

So you have no proof just a assumption. Oh nvm you say your source is Physics ? Well i will stick my with source of actual testing and the common sense that a longer barrel will provide longer range and higher energy behind the round and even more accuracy.

So you deny simple fact that long barel tends to bend more and its harder to stabilize than short?

I will stick with the people that have been rolling out the worlds best MBTs before Israel was even founded.

Good stick with 60 years old failed experience. I prefer to stick with modern experience.

You know making stuff up for the sake of arguing is not going to get you anywhere. HESH rounds are the premier demolition round and bunker busting round. Look it up. They also hold longer ranges

I fired these HESH rounds myself. HESH was introduced not because its so good against buildings, but because it was mulipurpose: it could hit bunkers, infantry and tanks with RHA armor. But its far from ideal: it has thin hull and cant penetrate hard targets and gives few fragments, on the other hand HE u can set on deleayed explosion inside building.

Obviously Since most of the world under license manufactures German tank guns they are the same length. But the L/55 is not the same length as the L/44 so no they are not the same length.

L44 guns that are produced today are different from L44 guns produced in 80-es. They have increased pressure and accuracy.