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As the Hajj begins, the destruction of Mecca's heritage continues

No, sir, because your government does not respect history. It's a fact.


@Yzd Khalifa

I do not know in what context you said that Pakistanis and Saudis share the same DNA but it's completely false.

Well, you should visit the country before you speak. Every single village more or less no matter which historical ancient region/province we are talking about has heritage in abundance. You might visit this thread below and see it with your own eyes.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/222471-saudi-arabia-pictures-49.html

Thousands of pictures can do the talking for me. I also find it funny that a country who arguably is world famous for it's conservatism, preservation of its rich culture/traditions is accused of doing the opposite. I guess we have a fundamentally different opinion about the importance of graves.

And even if we ASSUME that you are right then why do you care? You obviously do not care about Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabians or Arabs so why the false worries?

What we do in our own house is our business and responsibility. Is that not your own logic when we talk about Pakistan?

W.11:

You really need help dude. Arabs might make up about 25% of all Muslims (400-450 million people) but what you are writing is just pure nonsense. It seems that you have some issues. I would gladly help but it seems that I would be talking to deaf ears.

Besides you can do what you want. Nobody here is taking you hostage. At the end of the day performing hajj at least once in your life is a obligation for every healthy and financially able Muslim. The decision you have taken is between you and Allah (swt).

There are MILLIONS of Muslims who would gladly take your place in seconds if they got an opportunity. Do not worry about that.

Besides you clearly have absolutely NO CLUE whatsoever about all the money KSA has and continues to pour into the hajj and the holy sites. You talk about revenues? You might look at the actual data.
 
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Most of the things being demolished are in no way related to the kind of heritage and history your mind is suggesting.

You may also add that to being evil. After all, loud voices never stopped demanding to let more people in.



Fine, but no shrines.

Historian look as Hijazi Hasmites hate from Saudi family. There ultimate target is destruction of Holy Prophet Rozza. The day their century old revenge will be completed.
 
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Let's supposed that one day you're gonna be the leader of Safavidistan! And you were caught up high and dry! please don't come back on your knees to us begging for help. :lol:




None of all expansion projects we carried out over the years include a single artifact to the Prophet and his companions :lol:

Nice try, next ...

What on earth is Safavidistan? Some new term you guys invented for any non arabs or what?


im a fanatic by calling all muslims as muslims and not just arabs, and that islam isn't owned by Arabs?

you guys are really extreme, so you mean to say im a kaafir, only an arab can be a real muslim others are just kaafirs, wajib ul katal pretending to be muslims?

OH bhai. Nothing wrong when Arab think they are superior, let them think that but bigger problem is when our own countrymen want to lick feet of corrupt saudi kings.
 
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These is expected when all of the muslim is in confusion and the stooges are made to do their master Iblees proud but they cannot remove the love of Prophet Muhammad (SAW),his campanion,his house hold from believer heart .

In holy quran our lord is saying "you remember me and i will remember you"
Allah will make his beloved remembrance in every believer's heart even they [iblees unwanted child] try hard and destroy every thing related to prophets we will still remember our master [Saw]


The photos Saudi Arabia doesn't want seen – and proof Islam's most holy relics are being demolished in Mecca
Archaeologists fear billion-pound development has led to destruction of key historical sites

The authorities in Saudi Arabia have begun dismantling some of the oldest sections of Islam’s most important mosque as part of a highly controversial multi-billion pound expansion.

Photographs obtained by The Independent reveal how workers with drills and mechanical diggers have started demolishing some Ottoman and Abbasid sections on the eastern side of the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca.

The building, which is also known as the Grand Mosque, is the holiest site in Islam because it contains the Kaaba – the point to which all Muslims face when praying. The columns are the last remaining sections of the mosque which date back more than a few hundred years and form the inner perimeter on the outskirts of the white marble floor surrounding the Kaaba.

The new photos, taken over the last few weeks, have caused alarm among archaeologists and come as Prince Charles – a long-term supporter of preserving architectural heritage – flew into Saudi Arabia yesterday for a visit with the Duchess of Cornwall. The timing of his tour has been criticised by human rights campaigners after the Saudis shot seven men in public earlier this week despite major concerns about their trial and the fact that some of the men were juveniles at the time of their alleged crimes.

Many of the Ottoman and Abbasid columns in Mecca were inscribed with intricate Arabic calligraphy marking the names of the Prophet Muhammad’s companions and key moments in his life. One column which is believed to have been ripped down is supposed to mark the spot where Muslims believe Muhammad began his heavenly journey on a winged horse, which took him to Jerusalem and heaven in a single night.

To accommodate the ever increasing number of pilgrims heading to the twin holy cities of Mecca and Medina each year the Saudi authorities have embarked upon a massive expansion project. Billions of pounds have been poured in to increase the capacity of the Masjid al-Haram and the Masjid an-Nabawi in Medina which marks where Muhammad is buried. King Abdullah has put the prominent Wahabi cleric and imam of the Grand Mosque, Abdul Rahman al-Sudais, in charge of the expansion while the Saudi Binladin Group – one of the country’s largest firms – has won the construction contract.

While there is little disagreement over the need to expand, critics have accused the Saudi regime of wantonly disregarding the archaeological, historical and cultural heritage of Islam’s two holiest cities. In the last decade Mecca has been transformed from a dusty desert pilgrimage town into a gleaming metropolis of skyscrapers that tower over the Masjid al-Haram and are filled with a myriad of shopping malls, luxury apartments and five star hotels.

But such a transformation has come at a cost. The Washington-based Gulf Institute estimates that 95 per cent of Mecca's millennium-old buildings have been demolished in the past two decades alone. Dozens of key historical sites dating back to the birth of Islam have already been lost and there is a scramble among archaeologists and academics to try and encourage the authorities to preserve what little remains.

Many senior Wahabis are vehemently against the preservation of historical Islamic sites that are linked to the prophet because they believe it encourages shirq – the sin of idol worshipping.

But Dr Irfan al-Alawi, executive director of the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation which obtained the new photographs from inside the Grand Mosque, says the removal of the Ottoman and Abbasid columns will leave future generations of Muslims ignorant of their significance.

“It matters because many of these columns signified certain areas of the mosque where the Prophet sat and prayed,” he said. “The historical record is being deleted. A new Muslim would never have a clue because there’s nothing marking these locations now. There are ways you could expand Mecca and Medina while protecting the historical heritage of the mosque itself and the surrounding sites.”

There are signs that King Abdullah has listened to concerns about the historical destruction of Mecca and Medina. Last October The Independent revealed how new plans for the masjid an-Nabawi in Medina would result in the destruction of three of the world’s oldest mosques on the west hand side of the main complex. However new plans approved by King Abdullah last week appear to show a change of heart with the bulk of the expansion now slated to take place to the north of the Masjid an-Nabawi.

However key sites are still at risk. The Independent has obtained a presentation used by the Saudis to illustrate how the expansion of Mecca’s main mosque will look. In one of the slides it is clear that the Bayt al-Mawlid, an area which is believed to be the house where Muhammad was born in, will have to be removed unless plans change.

The Independent asked the Saudi Embassy in London a number of questions about the expansion plans and why more was not being done to preserve key historical sites. They replied: “Thank you for calling, but no comment.”
The photos Saudi Arabia doesn't want seen

Further reading

Mecca for the rich: Islam's holiest site 'turning into Vegas'

Why don't more Muslims speak out against the wanton destruction of Mecca's holy sites?

Medina: Saudis take a bulldozer to Islam's history
 
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Historian look as Hijazi Hasmites hate from Saudi family. There ultimate target is destruction of Holy Prophet Rozza. The day their century old revenge will be completed.

Come again? Dude, your whole post is laughable. What are you trying to say? More Shia conspiracy theories?

Not sure I understand what you are talking about?

Plenty of Hashemites have important positions in KSA. We are not discriminated against. History is history. All Saudi Arabians (more or less) agree with the unification of our country and the importance of that instead of living separated in kingdoms, emirates, sheikdoms etc. Stop making it sound like there are great divisions on that front. Yes, the Hijazis in the past and some still do have some grievances against the Al-Saud and the rule. I am not fully or completely satisfied either. I doubt any Saudi Arabian is or they themselves. That is one thing though. But to create false divisions is nonsense. And those grievances/disagreement can not only be found among Hijazis but the people of Asir, Jizan, Najran, Bahah, Eastern Province, Najd and basically all layers and provinces of the country. LIKE in every single country in the world. Name me one country where everyone and everything is perfect?

The relations with Jordan which are ruled by Makkawi Hashemites should tell you everything.

f4fsyu.gif


Also we are living in the year 2013. People do not put importance to ancestry etc. over that of education, personal skills, how you are as a human being etc. This goes for nearly all countries and societies. Yes, respect is given to people of certain positions but that is normal. And yes, KSA is a kingdom with all what that means. Does not change the essence.
 
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OH bhai. Nothing wrong when Arab think they are superior, let them think that but bigger problem is when our own countrymen want to lick feet of corrupt saudi kings.

not just a Saudi complex but its a case for entire Arabian penisula as a whole

they think that being f1lthy rich oil sheikh is being superior to other nations
 
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One of the Saudi members , mentioned here there are 1200 islands in KSA .

I never knew that . I would like to see pictures of those islands . Hope they will be amazing .

If some thread is already running on them , please point me towards that , Thank you .
 
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Well, that's not what has been reported, if you insist that all reports have been false I would welcome evidence to the buildings that have been demolished and why, given your governement does not deem a freer media fit for her people.

Sure, but be ware that all reports are similar, so just think of it more like of a copy paste. At any rate here are some reports which covered phase 1 of the expansion.

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.con&contentid=20131012183490

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.con&contentid=20130307155772

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/spe...-project-s-first-phase-opens-during-hajj.html

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/spe...of-the-developments-of-the-grand-mosque-.html


Well, that's not what has been reported, if you insist that all reports have been false I would welcome evidence to the buildings that have been demolished and why, given your governement does not deem a freer media fit for her people.

Heritage is anything tangible tied to History in an important way, in that case your government has been demolishing such sites for various reasons including an expansion of business (tourism) that is not justified.

The 'history' I have in mind is history, sir, I would not even voice my religious views to you as they would offend you, I am sure of that, let's stick to civics.

I did not label you evil, if you insist on it, take the title but please do not put words in my mouth that originate from yours.

Well, I serve my country, but I didn't take your comments seriously. I was just flipping with you :P

Historian look as Hijazi Hasmites hate from Saudi family. There ultimate target is destruction of Holy Prophet Rozza. The day their century old revenge will be completed.

The Ashraf remains the master of their house, keep in mind that they're the gate keepers :agree:

But some of you chose to put their faith in the wrong person, it was all but over for your kinds ever since we purified and united our land :) ..
 
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One of the Saudi members , mentioned here there are 1200 islands in KSA .

I never knew that . I would like to see pictures of those islands . Hope they will be amazing .

If some thread is already running on them , please point me towards that , Thank you .

We've got 1300 friend :bounce:

Take a look at this bro!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6yBmy5bynq4


not just a Saudi complex but its a case for entire Arabian penisula as a whole

they think that being f1lthy rich oil sheikh is being superior to other nations

Another groundless baseless accusation. :angel: ...
 
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That W. 11 individual really has some tremendous problems. I think that he need to open a book or a few. Yeah, Yemen - the second most populous country on the Arabian Peninsula and one of the oldest civilizations in the world is FULL of rich sheikhs. In fact Yemen is the richest country in the world. Yeah, Arabs are superior. Did you not know? Not sure why I am wasting my time with such individuals.

One of the Saudi members , mentioned here there are 1200 islands in KSA .

I never knew that . I would like to see pictures of those islands . Hope they will be amazing .

If some thread is already running on them , please point me towards that , Thank you .

Yes, actually I was wrong. It is 1300 islands.
"There are plenty of untapped opportunities to promote tourism through the 1,300 islands in the Kingdom's waters. While 1,150 of them are in the Red Sea and 150 in the Arabian Gulf, only 405 have distinct names and been surveyed by the Saudi Geological Society," said a member of the JCCI Tourism Committee Khaled Fahd Al-Harthy.

1,300 Saudi islands look for investorsTravel & Tourism - Zawya

Well, a good start could be this thread below I made a while ago:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...xploring-saudi-arabias-marine-wonderland.html

Or the one displaying pictures from all over KSA below:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/222471-saudi-arabia-pictures-49.html

We also have the longest coastline in the region. Nearly 3000 km long and very beautiful. Anyway not the topic of this discussion.
 
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You should probably read a little bit more, see, in this century, information is disseminated in large quantities over large distances.

I stick to History, there are experts for this thing, if you know, who check out probable sites and deem them heritage or not. Saudi government has resisted attempts by UN heritage teams to visit their country and declare heritage sites. Read, please.



Here are some proofs, give me yours I'd love to see them:

The photos Saudi Arabia doesn't want seen
McMecca: The Strange Alliance of Clerics and Businessmen in Saudi Arabia - Zvika Krieger - The Atlantic
Mecca's ancient heritage is under attack - Los Angeles Times
Makkah Hotels: Makkah Hotel at Fairmont
Dr. Sami Angawi on Wahhabi Desecration of Makkah: Developers and Purists Erase Mecca's History :: Center for Islamic Pluralism
Medina: Saudis take a bulldozer to Islam's history - Middle East - World - The Independent


Well, you should visit the country before you speak. Every single village more or less no matter which historical ancient region/province we are talking about has heritage in abundance. You might visit this thread below and see it with your own eyes.

Who said graves? I am not bringing religion in here. I'm talking strictly on History. Your country is called the "Medieval Kingdom", sir, no offense, that's due to the mentality that your government has shown in all things except diplomacy.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/222471-saudi-arabia-pictures-49.html

Thousands of pictures can do the talking for me. I also find it funny that a country who arguably is world famous for it's conservatism, preservation of its rich culture/traditions is accused of doing the opposite. I guess we have a fundamentally different opinion about the importance of graves.

Why do I care? History is important to me, as humans, it is a record of our time over here. That's why nations are careful with heritage even when there is conflict. Perhaps it's different in your country. Yes, it is your country, ruled by a monarch, mind you, yet you have assumed what I am stating comes out of some sort of prejudice, that is not the case, unless you claim to know what is going on in my head.

And even if we ASSUME that you are right then why do you care? You obviously do not care about Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabians or Arabs so why the false worries?

Have you read about what I have said about Pakistan? Have you seen my posts? Yes, nation states have their own power of determination but that does not limit the international community to contribute their opinions about it. That's how the world works, you are on PDF, are you not? A Pakistani forum, here, presumably, to voice your concerns and in some ways represent your people in retrospect. That stops when we talk about your nation? No. You have the right to be respected, as do we; however, we also have the right to be heard, especially, when it comes to common heritage, humanitarian concerns and policies. If you don't think so, my friend, you're stuck in the wrong century.

What we do in our own house is our business and responsibility. Is that not your own logic when we talk about Pakistan?
 
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i have nothing against common saudis saudis and they maybe nice people sweet talkers too but

You just said that Arabs aren't Muslim and then you mentioned - in another post - that we are arrogant :lol: Make up your mind my friend.

there is no friendship in world politics, only mutual interests, saudis interests are american interests and american interests are in Pakistan

You don't know what the devil you're talking about :D When the whole world - including the US in first place - chose to punish Pakistan - turing their backs on you, no body stood with you except the Saudis AND LIKEWISE. You might need to ask some expert on the Saudi Pakistan relations such as @Imran Khan or fair critics such as @Aeronaut


as soon as that interest is gone, the two countries will be far apart as they never were

This isn't what our ethics instruct us to do especially with a pillar ally :)




i have nothing against common saudis saudis and they maybe nice people sweet talkers too but

there is no friendship in world politics, only mutual interests, saudis interests are american interests and american interests are in Pakistan

as soon as that interest is gone, the two countries will be far apart as they never were

you called me safavud for god knows what reason i don't love iranians i don't care about them either so i don't know why you brought iran here
 
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@jaibi

You clearly do not know what you are talking about. The heritage you talk about is limited to the subsequent area next to Masjid al-Haram in Makkah. And that's about it. Makkah is one town/city/village out of thousands in KSA as important as it is. What have I to proof? Anyone who just know anything about my country, it seem you certainly don't know much given your posts and I doubt that you ever stepped on the land, will testify to the rich heritage of KSA that is still visible even in the smallest of villages. Be it in the deep mountains, deep deserts, lowlands, steppes, coastal areas, islands etc. The thread I guided you to testify to those facts by providing hundreds of photos of that heritage that you choose to ignore.

You can voice your opinion all you want. Who stopped you from doing it? Did I stop you? I am just saying that you should stick to issues that you know something about. I clearly demonstrated that you did not on this specific issue.

Besides there is plenty of heritage in Makkah and its outskirts.
 
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You should probably read a little bit more, see, in this century, information is disseminated in large quantities over large distances.

I stick to History, there are experts for this thing, if you know, who check out probable sites and deem them heritage or not. Saudi government has resisted attempts by UN heritage teams to visit their country and declare heritage sites. Read, please.

I just presented you with information as well as a summary of project phase 1 my friend, given facts from those who were in charge of the ENTIRE expansion project. There is no way on earth that someone would know better than these people, especially when these information came from the web of which most are being politicized to such extent.

However, as I always say, You are entitled to believe in whatever you believe in.

And Since I've documented all facts needed to legitimize my argument, there is no need for carrying the discussion any further.

:wave:

Chao
 
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