Arjun News & Discussions

[Keysersoze]

The tank has been out since 2002.

And how many have been produced since then?

 

[Samudra]

And how many have been produced since then?

124 are being produced after extensive trails.

 

[Keysersoze]

124 are being produced after extensive trails.

Dude this is the thing.....the tank has supposedly been in production for a while now....and if there are still trials going on then it would suggest that something still needs testing.....Those 124 tanks have been on the production line a loooooooooong time.

 

[Samudra]

Five years is nothing for a country like India to productionise a tank like ARJUN which is totally different from anything it has made before. Plus trials of production models.

 

[EagleEyes]

Does anyone know what was wrong with guns? and fire control system?

If it has been fixed. Any link?

 

[Samudra]

The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 90% Pk) replaces an earlier analogue one, which had problems due to the extreme conditions during tests. The combined day sight from Bharat Electronics Ltd. and Thermal imager (formerly from Sagem, now reported to be from El-Op) is the gunner's primary sight.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3217

All FCS issues resolved.

Army initially wanted 105mm guns later changed mind and wanted 120mm rifled bore.

 

[EagleEyes]

Good to know that they finally seeked help and resolved this issue.

http://www.sagem-ds.com/eng/site.php?spage=02010404

 

[con]

Dude this is the thing.....the tank has supposedly been in production for a while now....and if there are still trials going on then it would suggest that something still needs testing.....Those 124 tanks have been on the production line a loooooooooong time.

Keys,
DRDO does not produce Arjuns. They are the developers.Once the user trials are complete and an production example is finalised,which was done in 2002, it is handed over the production agency called HVF.

The IA loathes anything from HVF.Since HVF is already busy with T-72's and T-90 assesmbly they dont bother about Arjun. Plus since Arjun is their first full production tank,they mess up the production.

What you see some reports on issues they are from the test trials of PRODUCTION models. Th e IA wants perfect production pieces.They find faults,they will send it to HVF
The media will take up this issue and keep ranting that faults are with Arjun.

For example one of the tanks during the recent war games has a suspension oil leakage.
What did the press do.They brought out a report that "Army is unsure about Arjun blah blah .... there was failure of suspension..blah blah"

One tank leakage and the whole Arjun is at fault!

If Arjun was so much faulty,the man reporting the Arjun test on the video is the most famous critic of Arjun, he also had to eat his own words.

Observe when he comments about suspension.

Here is a youtube video.

 

[con]

A full history of Arjun development.

http://*****************/history-of-arjun-tank-development/

Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service (FIDSNS) uncovers the story of Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), which is one of the world’s best main battle tanks. Indian indigenous Arjun MBT development history is a facinating story of Indian quest to develop a formidable Tank.The article covers the design, development and operational use of Arjun Tank. FIDSNS is greatfull to Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for its time and efforts to make this article.
The main battle tank MBT-80 which is now called MBT Arjun was conceived by the Indian Army after it realised the futility of its tanks mainly in desert conditions, during the 1971 war.

1972 – 1975
In October 1970 a symposium was held on the Indian Main Battle Tank (MBT) at Armoured Corps Center and School. It was attended by the representatives from Indian Army General Staff (GS), Defence Research and Development Organisation DRDO), Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) and Department of Defence Production (DODP). The main aim of the symposium was to formulate GSQR for future Indian MBT.
The first draft of Qualitative Requirement (QR) was prepared by Armoured Corps Directorate and discussed with Vice Chief of Army Staff (VCOAS).
The first General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) was issued in August 1972 as QR No. 326 for the design and development of MBT. The QR 326 was not exhaustive and with regard to specifications but featured only skeleton specifications.
The design and development of MBT based on GSQR No. 326 was taken up by the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE). The initial outlay of Rs. 15.50 Crore was sanctioned vide the Government of India (GOI) letter dated 02 May, 1974. Project Development Certification (PDC) of the project was 10 years from the date of sanction.
The MBT was to be designed around imported engine as the design and development experience to create a tank engine was not available within the time frame of the project. In 1974, DRDO had to take up design and development of a tank engine as Government of India could not import a tank engine because of political and other reasons.

1975 -1980
DRDO prepared the system configuration of the tank. Indigenous engine hardware was assembled and motoring test commenced by 1979. Indigenous suspension and transmission hardware was ready for development test. The main 115mm armament was developed and trials were carried out for proof at Balasore ranges. The gun system and fire control system design was configured. One prototype hull in mild steel was fabricated to check the fitment and assembly.
In April 1978, the Indian Army called DRDO for a meeting for mutual discussions. The aim was to change the GSQR No. 326. A series of meetings between DRDO and Indian Army, chaired by VCOAS resulted in change in GSQR. The new GSQR bearing the number 431 was issued in August 1982.
The changes in the GSQR No. 431 were
a)Increase in width and weight
b)110/115mm gun was to be replaced with a 120mm gun.
c)Improved Sighting and Fire Control system.
Essentially it meant creation of entirely new design and systems. A sum of Rs. 56.55 Crores was obtained mainly to cater to cater to GSQR changes and price escalation due to inflation/ rise in import costs.
The PDC of the project was revised. The first prototype was to be built by October 1980 and subsequently 12 prototypes were to be developed, one in every 6 months.
The indigenous engine and transmission evaluation on dynamometer was carried out during 1979-81.

1980 – 1985
As already mentioned that the country had no experience in building an basic internal combustion engine. The tank engine development slipped as this engine was to be made after experimenting with basics of an internal combustion engine. Project of this scale was almost impossible for nascent Indian research laboratories. By this time, the western governments had shown willingness to supply the engines. A decision was taken to import a limited number of engines (also called “power packs&#8221 from M/S MTU, Germany. For the fitment On Mark 1 (Mk 1) prototypes so as not to let the development schedule of the MBT slip.
Initially MTU supplied a 700hp engine for fitment trials and subsequently supplied 1100hp engine for prototypes. The MTU was also developing a 1400hp engine as per the specifications laid down by CVRDE.
The first prototype of the MBT was developed based on GSQR No. 326 of 1972 and No. 431 of 1982.
The prototype was subjected to limited technical trials by DRDO at Avadi and Jodhpur desert area.
Subsequently, few more prototypes were produced with different configuration by 1985.
In the initial development phase, suspension, running gear and other automotive systems were being evaluated with 1100 hp engine.

1985 – 1990
There had been significant enhancement in the battle tank technologies world wide and there was a possibility of these tanks being introduced in the Indian Sub Continent. This prompted Indian Army to change its GSQR and in November 1985, third GSQR No. 467 was issued. The changes in GSQR were:
a)More lethal gun of 120mm caliber.
b)Requirement of Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS)
c)Development of Semi Combustible Cartridge cases and high energy propellant.
d)Integrated Fire Control System based on sight stabilized system with periscopic gunner sight.
e)Thermal Imaging system for gunner’s main sight for night fighting capabilities.
f)Provision of “Kanchan Armour” for enhanced immunity.
In addition following conditions were in the new GSQR:
•Manufacture of 23 Pre production Series (PPS) Tanks to enable full scale troop trials and after that smooth transfer technology (TOT) to a production agency.
•Setting of Armoured Fighting Vehicle (AFV) evaluation center and augmentation of infrastructure facilities.
•Realistic assessment of technical and user trial.
•Import of engines for prototypes and PPS.
The revised financial implication because of the new GSQR was Rs. 280.80 Crores which was issued in 1987. The GSQR escalated the cost of materials, stores and the import cost spiraled due to weakening Rupee.
The development of the tank was progressed with reference to the new GSQR. DRDO had to re – design the structure of chassis/ hull. The turret had to be designed again to cater to improved armour protection and a high power to weight ratio power pack. The MBT now also to feature Nuclear Biological and Chemical (NBC) warfare and protection system, Medium Fording capability, auxiliary power unit (APU), Laser Warning System (LWS) and Global Positioning System (GPS).
The period of 1985 – 1990 was significant in history of Arjun Tank for the progressive evolution of a number of systems through exhaustive field testing. A total of 12 Arjun Tank prototypes were built in order to prove the design, development and system integration of a number of systems through field testing.
The integration of first prototype with a proper 1400 hp engine was accomplished in 1989. During the automotive trials of the prototypes a total of 20,000 Kilometer run in various terrain. Arjun MBT covered 11000 kilometers in dessert terrain and 1000 kilometers in river bed terrain. The weapon system was also tested by firing 540 FSAPDS and 560 HESH.

1990 – 1995
The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.
The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.
MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.
The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.
The status of the Arjun Tank was reviewed by the COAS in May 1994 and “bottom line requirements” were laid down. After the completion of the 1994 trials on MBT Arjun, a presentation was made to the COAS and he laid down “Imperatives” in August 1994.
All the additional 9 PPS tanks were handed over to Army progressively and the final handing over of the 9th PPS Tank to Army happened in 1996. The last PPS tank (i.e. XV) incorporating improvements as suggested by the Army and with add on features viz. APU, NBC, Medium Fording Capability was demonstrated to COAS and users at Avadi.
The PPS Tanks delivered to the Army during this period had covered 70,000 kilometers of automotive trials and fired 7000 rounds. The average kilometer run by a PPS tank was 4500 kilometers and 460 rounds fired from each tank.
DRDO addressed the bottom line requirements and imperatives as demanded by the COAS. The overall design of the Arjun Tank was cleared.

1995 – 2000
A set of dedicated trials as directed by the COAS was carried out during August – December 1995 successfully.
The Prime Minister P.V Narsimha Rao dedicated the MBT Arjun to the nation in January 1996.
The Army designated the XV PPS tank as the reference tank for production.
In the year 1997, 11 PPS tanks participated in Indian Army Exercise “AGNIR.ATI-t.” (A clarification on the name of the exercise is needed. It could be Exercise Agnirathi). 10 Arjun Tanks successfully completed the exercise. But the Army again came back with suggestions and modifications. In November 1997, the final list of suggested modifications and “joint Action Plan” for the implementation and certification was drafted. DRDO implemented the modification to the satisfaction of the Indian Army.
The Indian Amy again put the improved tanks to trials. The 43rd Armoured Regiment conducted the automotive trials. The trials were successful and Arjun tank was brought ready for full scale production.
The Arjun MBT project was successfully closed at Rupees 305 Crores. The final acceptance by the Indian Army led to placement of order for 124 Arjun Tanks in 2002.
DRDO transferred the design and other drawings to the manufacturing agency HVF in 2002.
The Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars is with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production, i.e, the first 30 tanks produced by HVF will have quality control certified by DRDO. After that Arjun Tank will be certified by DGQA.

The last statement indicates the problem in production at HVF.

The IA gives a requirement for increased weight, i.e heavy armour. But then the media dorks print reports that IA complains about weight.

The requirements for what Arjun is today was given by the IA in 1987. That is 20 years ago. So much for the cribbing that it took 35 years.

 

[foxhound]

Salaam!

News Update:

India To Test Arjun in Exercise; Army Claims Tank Is Faulty

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI
Ref:http://defensenews.com/story.php?F=2776224&C=asiapac

India will test its 14 Arjun main battle tanks in June desert exercises alongside, and in comparison to, Russian T-90 and T-72 tanks.
But Army officials have already declared that the indigenous tank is not fit for combat.
Conceived in 1974 at an original design and development cost of $3.6 million, the Arjun tank program under the Defence Research and Development Organization now costs $83.33 million. The Arjun tank was to have replaced the aging T-72, but development delays led the service to order T-90s after the Kargil battle in 1999, and the Army still says it has a serious shortage of main battle tanks. The T-90 now serves as India’s main battle tank.
An Army official said next month’s exercises are user and comparative trials in the deserts of Rajasthan.

Army sources said the Arjun continues to be only a training tank and is not yet qualified for combat, as it is very heavy and will need many changes in its logistics tail, including the size of the rail cars that transport them.
But a Defence Ministry official said the Arjun’s defects have been removed, and if it passes next month’s tests, more production orders will be placed with the state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadhi.
Army officials disagree, saying there are still at least a dozen defects in the tank, including a deficient fire-control system, inaccurate gun and faulty air conditioning that makes it difficult to operate in very hot conditions.

The quality of the Arjun tank also has been a concern for the Parliament’s Standing Committee for Defence, which in its 16th Report in 2006-’07 said that one official had testified, “I am afraid our quality control is very poor. I have heard that five tanks were presented before the media. However, when the media and other people went away, the tanks were put back in the factory because still some quality checks had to be made.
“The biggest problem in India in respect of defense production is quality control. If China can do it, why can we not do it?”

The Defence Ministry official admitted that there is a shortfall of about 3,500 tanks and that the delivery schedule of the Arjun is not satisfactory. The Army is junking more tanks in the next two to three years than it will be inducting, which will lead to further shortfalls. The Army sources said that around 1,000 tanks out of the 3,000 now in service will be junked by 2008.

If the Arjun is not cleared for combat, the Army will need to purchase more tanks besides the T-90 from overseas markets and upgrade more than 1,600 of its T-72 tanks, the Army sources said. •

 

[Samudra]

So the final configurations were confirmed in 1985 and the money was sanctioned in 1987. Thats exactly twenty years and only some 20 odd crores over the budget. Considering the inflation and rise of various other expenses including trials and production of PPS variants building a tank like ARJUN is a great achievement.

Only the imagers, engine and transmission are foreign now. Locally developed transmission will be available very soon. Infact its already in trials.

 

[Interceptor]

1990 – 1995
The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.
The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.
MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.
The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.


----------------------------
The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army’s Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even “freeze” the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the “Chetek” was produced and displayed on India’s Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named “Arjun”. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994.

The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was “frozen” for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army’s “diluted” requirements. Despite the Army’s reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a ‘fait accompli’ and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/tank.htm

 

[Bull]

olssssss newsssss...the excersice is over the verdict is out...wake up.....

 

[con]

1990 – 1995
The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.
The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.
MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.
The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.


----------------------------
The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army’s Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even “freeze” the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the “Chetek” was produced and displayed on India’s Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named “Arjun”. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994.

The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was “frozen” for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army’s “diluted” requirements. Despite the Army’s reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a ‘fait accompli’ and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/tank.htm

A pakistani author on Arjun development. Please.

When an author goes about on self praise to bring down another nation's equipment,it is not worth reading any more.
So what is this "diluted requirement"? Can you tell me?

 

[Interceptor]

But reading crtics will tell people what other nations think, you can call the Al-Khalid the greatest tank on the planet but in reality it is medium low tech tank. Why would the Arjun stand out more there is a still a big question mark if it is going to be conducted or not.

The Jane report shows the Indians are not satisfied with its performance. Hence they bought a large number of T-90s to keep up the stratigic need.