PLAAF have already better jets they dont need jf-17.
Arjun News & Discussions
- Thread starter HAIDER
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PLAAF have already better jets they dont need jf-17.
Creder
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Eh not to piss anybody off here or something, but whats the history like on this tank so far ? From what I've read and i might be wrong on all accounts, that it hasn't been upto par with current IA requirements.
Is this test an effort to save this project ?
Is this test an effort to save this project ?
Iggy
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Mate IA is saying that its not up to the par of their standards But DRDO is saying its up to the par and they are openly challenged IA war an comparitive trails between Arjun and T-90 to show which one is better..DRDO officials are confident that Arjun can outclass T-90..so far IA was trying to make excuse not to field this trials and try not to induct Arjun citing the problems like over weight and some other excuses..let the trial take place and the better Tank wins
faithfulguy
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This is what I believe. A last ditch effort on deciding drain more dough into the ditch or to ditch it altogether
Creder
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Mate IA is saying that its not up to the par of their standards But DRDO is saying its up to the par and they are openly challenged IA war an comparitive trails between Arjun and T-90 to show which one is better..DRDO officials are confident that Arjun can outclass T-90..so far IA was trying to make excuse not to field this trials and try not to induct Arjun citing the problems like over weight and some other excuses..let the trial take place and the better Tank wins
But shouldn't it be the IA to make the final call ? I mean they're gonna be the ones using it. Do you think DRDO is just trying to make IA buy it or something
faithfulguy
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Mate IA is saying that its not up to the par of their standards But DRDO is saying its up to the par and they are openly challenged IA war an comparitive trails between Arjun and T-90 to show which one is better..DRDO officials are confident that Arjun can outclass T-90..so far IA was trying to make excuse not to field this trials and try not to induct Arjun citing the problems like over weight and some other excuses..let the trial take place and the better Tank wins
The best tank is depending on who is in charging of the test. If IA is doing it, one tank will win. If DRDO is doing it, Arjun will win.
faithfulguy
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A test like this should be done before IA decided to purchase all those T-90s. Won't it be too late now?
Creder
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One reason for doing it now could be to justify the minimum number of Arjun tanks that should be inducted by the IA to make this entire project atleast a bit feasible. And inorder to make the IA induct that minimum number of Arjun tanks they might be doing this test
TheBraveHeart
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The problem is top brass of Indian Army which doesn't want the Arjun..for some unknown reasons, whereas the soldiers who have operated both the T-90 and Arjun say earlier- Arjun had some problems few yrs back which now have been rectified and it has a slight/marginal edge in an overall comparison to T-90....
The question is whom to believe?
Iggy
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I think its mainly to compell defense ministry to pressurize IA to buy more Arjuns ..I am not sure may be some experts can help you..
SinoIndusFriendship
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You're right, it would not be fair to the Arjunk. The Arjunk has a range of about <300km before it suffers from engine failure, tracks falling apart, over heating, etc. Not to mention it's too heavy to ford any bridges, nor can it withstand extreme low or high temperatures. It's foreign engine, foreign barrel, foreign everything important aren't made to fit each other. T-90 has the clear advantage! Well then, continue with the show!!!
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Creder
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Fair enough, either way i hope whatever decision is made it doesnt compromise national security.
TheBraveHeart
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A few of u shud read these before coming to a conclusion....
Broadsword: Battle-lines drawn on the Arjun tank: Armed Forces prefer Russian armour
by Ajai Shukla
(Business Standard: 19th April 2008)
The battle-lines have been drawn. At stake is the future of one of India’s most prestigious defence products: the Arjun main battle tank (MBT). In its 29th report, which was tabled in parliament yesterday, Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence writes that it was “startled” to be told that the Arjun tank had performed poorly in winter trials conducted by the army, and that it was miles away from meeting the army’s requirements.
Business Standard has learned from three different members of the Standing Committee on Defence that it is more than “startled”; it is frankly disbelieving of the army’s deposition. In its last annual report for 2007-08, the committee was told by the MoD that the Arjun tank was:
* “A product unique in its class”, and “an improved system over the T-72.”
* “Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West”.
* “Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)”.
* “Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem.”
After the army representative slammed the Arjun, the Standing Committee chairman, Balasaheb Vikhe Patil, as well as the Defence Secretary, and several other members agreed that the committee would formulate a clear policy on India’s tank of the future. Underlying this decision is the belief amongst most members of the Standing Committee that the army is biased against the Arjun tank, and in favour of continuing to use Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.
There were clear factual inaccuracies in the army’s deposition before the Standing Committee. The most glaring of them is the army’s suggestion that it is carrying out trials on the Arjun’s performance. In fact, the army has already accepted the Arjun for introduction into service, based upon its driving and firing performance over years. After firing trials in summer 2006, the trial report (written by the army) said, “The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.”
The ongoing trials in Pokhran that the army is citing are Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT). In these, two Arjun tanks were run almost non-stop for 3000 kilometers, not to judge performance, but to evaluate the tank’s requirement of spare parts, fuel and lubricants during its entire service life. In fact, it is the Arjun’s developer, the Central Vehicle R&D Laboratory (CVRDE), Avadi, that has long demanded comparative trials, where the performance of five Arjuns would be gauged against five Russian T-90s and T-72s. The army has consistently sidestepped that invitation.
The army has also testified incorrectly to the Standing Committee about four engine failures during the recent AUCRT. In fact, sources closely associated with the trials say, the problems were with four gearboxes, manufactured by German company, Renk AG. A world leader in transmission systems, Renk representatives are already in Pokhran and Avadi, analysing and resolving the problem.
The army does not mention, but problems were also experienced with four hydro-pneumatic suspension units (HSUs), which leaked after the Arjuns had run 2000 kilometers. But the Arjun’s makers say 2000 kilometers is the service life of the suspension; normally they would have been replaced before the point at which they leaked.
Officers closely associated with the Arjun, as well as several members of the Standing Committee on Defence contrast the army’s approach to the Arjun with the navy’s acceptance of indigenous projects. They say the navy has achieved striking success in building its own warships, by associating itself with the project right from the design stage; warships are accepted into service and many hiccups overcome during their service lives. In contrast, the army is resisting accepting the Arjun until every last hiccup is resolved by the DRDO.
An application to interview the army’s Director General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) was approved by the MoD eight months ago. However, the DGMF has not granted an interview so far because of “scheduling problems.”
Broadsword: Battle-lines drawn on the Arjun tank: Armed Forces prefer Russian armour
by Ajai Shukla
(Business Standard: 19th April 2008)
The battle-lines have been drawn. At stake is the future of one of India’s most prestigious defence products: the Arjun main battle tank (MBT). In its 29th report, which was tabled in parliament yesterday, Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence writes that it was “startled” to be told that the Arjun tank had performed poorly in winter trials conducted by the army, and that it was miles away from meeting the army’s requirements.
Business Standard has learned from three different members of the Standing Committee on Defence that it is more than “startled”; it is frankly disbelieving of the army’s deposition. In its last annual report for 2007-08, the committee was told by the MoD that the Arjun tank was:
* “A product unique in its class”, and “an improved system over the T-72.”
* “Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West”.
* “Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)”.
* “Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem.”
After the army representative slammed the Arjun, the Standing Committee chairman, Balasaheb Vikhe Patil, as well as the Defence Secretary, and several other members agreed that the committee would formulate a clear policy on India’s tank of the future. Underlying this decision is the belief amongst most members of the Standing Committee that the army is biased against the Arjun tank, and in favour of continuing to use Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.
There were clear factual inaccuracies in the army’s deposition before the Standing Committee. The most glaring of them is the army’s suggestion that it is carrying out trials on the Arjun’s performance. In fact, the army has already accepted the Arjun for introduction into service, based upon its driving and firing performance over years. After firing trials in summer 2006, the trial report (written by the army) said, “The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.”
The ongoing trials in Pokhran that the army is citing are Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT). In these, two Arjun tanks were run almost non-stop for 3000 kilometers, not to judge performance, but to evaluate the tank’s requirement of spare parts, fuel and lubricants during its entire service life. In fact, it is the Arjun’s developer, the Central Vehicle R&D Laboratory (CVRDE), Avadi, that has long demanded comparative trials, where the performance of five Arjuns would be gauged against five Russian T-90s and T-72s. The army has consistently sidestepped that invitation.
The army has also testified incorrectly to the Standing Committee about four engine failures during the recent AUCRT. In fact, sources closely associated with the trials say, the problems were with four gearboxes, manufactured by German company, Renk AG. A world leader in transmission systems, Renk representatives are already in Pokhran and Avadi, analysing and resolving the problem.
The army does not mention, but problems were also experienced with four hydro-pneumatic suspension units (HSUs), which leaked after the Arjuns had run 2000 kilometers. But the Arjun’s makers say 2000 kilometers is the service life of the suspension; normally they would have been replaced before the point at which they leaked.
Officers closely associated with the Arjun, as well as several members of the Standing Committee on Defence contrast the army’s approach to the Arjun with the navy’s acceptance of indigenous projects. They say the navy has achieved striking success in building its own warships, by associating itself with the project right from the design stage; warships are accepted into service and many hiccups overcome during their service lives. In contrast, the army is resisting accepting the Arjun until every last hiccup is resolved by the DRDO.
An application to interview the army’s Director General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) was approved by the MoD eight months ago. However, the DGMF has not granted an interview so far because of “scheduling problems.”
TheBraveHeart
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Broadsword: The Arjun tank acquires a growing fan club
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 16th June 08
Indias own Arjun tank is finally proving its worth. Despite continuing criticism from an army establishment that judges the Arjun far more strictly than foreign purchases like the T-90, the Arjun is successfully completing a gruelling 5000-kilometre trial in the Rajasthan desert. During six months of trials, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), along with tank crews from the armys 43 Armoured Regiment, have proved not just the Arjuns endurance, but also the ability of its computer-controlled gun to consistently blow away suitcase-sized targets placed more than a kilometre away.
The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which must eventually okay the tank, is not impressed but key decision-makers are rallying behind the Arjun. The head of the Pune-based Southern Command, Lieutenant General N Thamburaj, strongly backs the Arjun. On a visit to the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan to watch his troops exercising, Lt Gen Thamburaj noticed the Arjun firing nearby. After walking across, he was invited by the DRDO team to drive and fire the tank. Half an hour later, the general was an Arjun backer; two holes in the target he aimed at testified that a soldier without previous experience operating tanks could get into the Arjun and use it effectively.
Business Standard has evidence of many more such incidents. On 29th June 2006, the commander of the elite 31 Armoured Division, Major General BS Grewal, visited the Mahajan Ranges along with a colleague, Major General Shiv Jaswal. Both drove and fired the Arjun for the first time that day; the two rounds that each fired punched holes through targets almost two kilometres away. (see picture)
That same month, 43 Armoured Regiment, which is the first army tank unit equipped with the Arjun, pronounced itself delighted with the Arjuns firing performance. After firing trials in summer 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed, The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.
But the establishment was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by then Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Eyewitnesses describe how he was upbraided for not conducting the trials properly. But in a career-threatening display of professional integrity, Colonel Thakurs brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened to insist that the trials had been conducted correctly.
In a series of interviews with the army, including the present Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, and with the MoD top brass, Business Standard has learned that opposition to the Arjun remains deeply entrenched. This despite the soldiers of 43 Armoured Regiment declaring that if it came to war, they would like to be in an Arjun.
Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts, Ive spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment) who have been testing the tank I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun. I said, youve driven this tank and youve driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And Ive found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank.
With new confidence, the Arjuns developer, the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), is arguing strongly for comparative trials, in which the Arjun would be pitted head-to-head, in identical conditions, with the armys T-90 and T-72 tanks. But the DGMF continues to resist any such face-off.
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 16th June 08
Indias own Arjun tank is finally proving its worth. Despite continuing criticism from an army establishment that judges the Arjun far more strictly than foreign purchases like the T-90, the Arjun is successfully completing a gruelling 5000-kilometre trial in the Rajasthan desert. During six months of trials, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), along with tank crews from the armys 43 Armoured Regiment, have proved not just the Arjuns endurance, but also the ability of its computer-controlled gun to consistently blow away suitcase-sized targets placed more than a kilometre away.
The armys Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which must eventually okay the tank, is not impressed but key decision-makers are rallying behind the Arjun. The head of the Pune-based Southern Command, Lieutenant General N Thamburaj, strongly backs the Arjun. On a visit to the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan to watch his troops exercising, Lt Gen Thamburaj noticed the Arjun firing nearby. After walking across, he was invited by the DRDO team to drive and fire the tank. Half an hour later, the general was an Arjun backer; two holes in the target he aimed at testified that a soldier without previous experience operating tanks could get into the Arjun and use it effectively.
Business Standard has evidence of many more such incidents. On 29th June 2006, the commander of the elite 31 Armoured Division, Major General BS Grewal, visited the Mahajan Ranges along with a colleague, Major General Shiv Jaswal. Both drove and fired the Arjun for the first time that day; the two rounds that each fired punched holes through targets almost two kilometres away. (see picture)
That same month, 43 Armoured Regiment, which is the first army tank unit equipped with the Arjun, pronounced itself delighted with the Arjuns firing performance. After firing trials in summer 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed, The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.
But the establishment was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by then Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Eyewitnesses describe how he was upbraided for not conducting the trials properly. But in a career-threatening display of professional integrity, Colonel Thakurs brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened to insist that the trials had been conducted correctly.
In a series of interviews with the army, including the present Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, and with the MoD top brass, Business Standard has learned that opposition to the Arjun remains deeply entrenched. This despite the soldiers of 43 Armoured Regiment declaring that if it came to war, they would like to be in an Arjun.
Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts, Ive spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment) who have been testing the tank I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun. I said, youve driven this tank and youve driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And Ive found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank.
With new confidence, the Arjuns developer, the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), is arguing strongly for comparative trials, in which the Arjun would be pitted head-to-head, in identical conditions, with the armys T-90 and T-72 tanks. But the DGMF continues to resist any such face-off.
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TheBraveHeart
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Broadsword: Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials
Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 17th June 08
India’s Arjun tank is fighting its first battle even before it enters service with the army. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and key Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials, confident that the Arjun is superior to the army’s Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, are demanding “comparative trials”, where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90, are put through endurance and firing trials in identical conditions.
But the army --- particularly the nodal Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) --- is shying away. Earlier, the DGMF declared that the T-72 and T-90 were proven tanks, which needed no further trials. Now, with the MoD adding its voice to the demand for comparative trials, the DGMF has told Business Standard that they must be put off until the army gets a full squadron of Arjun tanks (14 tanks) and absorbs the expertise to use them.
DRDO sources say the army is stonewalling on accepting the Arjun by demanding levels of performance that neither of its Russian tanks can deliver. Meanwhile, more T-90s are being imported from Russia on the plea that the army is falling short of tanks.
The DRDO’s fears are grounded in experience. On 28th July 2005, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee informed Parliament, “The Arjun tank is superior to (the) T-90 tank due to its high power to weight ratio, superior fire on the move capability during day and night and excellent ride comfort. MBT Arjun has gone through all the tests and it is meeting the (requirements) of the Army.”
But a year later, in December 2007, India bought 347 more T-90s for Rs 4900 crores. That despite the MoD’s admission in Parliament that the 310 T-90s purchased earlier had problems with their Invar missile systems, and the thermal imagers that are crucial for night fighting.
A comparative trial, says the DRDO, will conclusively establish that the Arjun is a better tank than the T-90. That will at least put a stop to the import of more T-90s.
But the DGMF is putting off such a trial. The DG of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, told Business Standard, “The Arjun is based on a very stringent GSQR and is in a class by itself. User trials are conducted based on this GSQR. Nevertheless, comparative trials will be conducted once a squadron worth of tanks (i.e. 14 Arjun tanks) are inducted in the army.”
This new insistence on 14 tanks will delay the trials at least till December 08. In 2005, the army had agreed to comparative trials, with five Arjun tanks pitted against five T-72s and an equal number of T-90s. The DGMF had even written the trial directive, spelling out how trials would be conducted. Those trials were postponed as the Arjun was not ready to operate in high summer temperatures. Now the Arjun is ready, but the army is not.
Top MoD officials are no longer buying the DGMF’s argument that the Arjun is a dud; the MoD wants comparative trials too. Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjit Singh, told Business Standard, “The proof of the pudding will be in comparing the Arjun tank with the T-90 tank, as imported. The T-90 is supposed to be a frontline tank; let it have it out with the Arjun. Let them slug it out in the desert… and see which comes off best.”
Besides demanding more Arjun tanks in the trials, the DGMF is also proposing to conduct the trials differently. Comparative trials are normally a straightforward test of equipment capability, with all the tanks driving through the same course and firing at similar targets to determine which of them does better. But the DGMF now plans to add a tactical --- and therefore subjective --- dimension. The Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 squadrons will be given operational tasks, e.g. capturing a hill some 150 kilometres away.
The DRDO is crying foul. Major General HM Singh, who spearheaded the Arjun’s development for the last 28 years until he retired a fortnight ago, points out that inserting tactics into the trials would give the army a way of putting down the Arjun. In a tactical exercise the tactical skills of the crew --- something that is irrelevant in evaluating a tank ---can determine the outcome of the trials. Gen HM Singh asks, “What is it that cannot be determined with five tanks, but can be with fourteen?”
Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 17th June 08
India’s Arjun tank is fighting its first battle even before it enters service with the army. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and key Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials, confident that the Arjun is superior to the army’s Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, are demanding “comparative trials”, where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90, are put through endurance and firing trials in identical conditions.
But the army --- particularly the nodal Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) --- is shying away. Earlier, the DGMF declared that the T-72 and T-90 were proven tanks, which needed no further trials. Now, with the MoD adding its voice to the demand for comparative trials, the DGMF has told Business Standard that they must be put off until the army gets a full squadron of Arjun tanks (14 tanks) and absorbs the expertise to use them.
DRDO sources say the army is stonewalling on accepting the Arjun by demanding levels of performance that neither of its Russian tanks can deliver. Meanwhile, more T-90s are being imported from Russia on the plea that the army is falling short of tanks.
The DRDO’s fears are grounded in experience. On 28th July 2005, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee informed Parliament, “The Arjun tank is superior to (the) T-90 tank due to its high power to weight ratio, superior fire on the move capability during day and night and excellent ride comfort. MBT Arjun has gone through all the tests and it is meeting the (requirements) of the Army.”
But a year later, in December 2007, India bought 347 more T-90s for Rs 4900 crores. That despite the MoD’s admission in Parliament that the 310 T-90s purchased earlier had problems with their Invar missile systems, and the thermal imagers that are crucial for night fighting.
A comparative trial, says the DRDO, will conclusively establish that the Arjun is a better tank than the T-90. That will at least put a stop to the import of more T-90s.
But the DGMF is putting off such a trial. The DG of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, told Business Standard, “The Arjun is based on a very stringent GSQR and is in a class by itself. User trials are conducted based on this GSQR. Nevertheless, comparative trials will be conducted once a squadron worth of tanks (i.e. 14 Arjun tanks) are inducted in the army.”
This new insistence on 14 tanks will delay the trials at least till December 08. In 2005, the army had agreed to comparative trials, with five Arjun tanks pitted against five T-72s and an equal number of T-90s. The DGMF had even written the trial directive, spelling out how trials would be conducted. Those trials were postponed as the Arjun was not ready to operate in high summer temperatures. Now the Arjun is ready, but the army is not.
Top MoD officials are no longer buying the DGMF’s argument that the Arjun is a dud; the MoD wants comparative trials too. Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjit Singh, told Business Standard, “The proof of the pudding will be in comparing the Arjun tank with the T-90 tank, as imported. The T-90 is supposed to be a frontline tank; let it have it out with the Arjun. Let them slug it out in the desert… and see which comes off best.”
Besides demanding more Arjun tanks in the trials, the DGMF is also proposing to conduct the trials differently. Comparative trials are normally a straightforward test of equipment capability, with all the tanks driving through the same course and firing at similar targets to determine which of them does better. But the DGMF now plans to add a tactical --- and therefore subjective --- dimension. The Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 squadrons will be given operational tasks, e.g. capturing a hill some 150 kilometres away.
The DRDO is crying foul. Major General HM Singh, who spearheaded the Arjun’s development for the last 28 years until he retired a fortnight ago, points out that inserting tactics into the trials would give the army a way of putting down the Arjun. In a tactical exercise the tactical skills of the crew --- something that is irrelevant in evaluating a tank ---can determine the outcome of the trials. Gen HM Singh asks, “What is it that cannot be determined with five tanks, but can be with fourteen?”
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