Arjun News & Discussions

[indiapakistanfriendship]

What is the army going to do with a tank with the same capabilities as the T-90, except being bigger and stronger, 20 years down the line. There will be no difference in the technologies.

Superior Armour, Superior gun, Superior electronics(Lot of ISRAELI INPUTS HAVE GONE), Superior crew protection, Superior crew control, Superior Suspension(Hydro Pneumatic instead of torsion, which means incrased gun stability at highers speed compared to T90). If these do not count then I don't understand whct counts superior to you.

IPF

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

p2prada
The army always submit new requirements even to the russians, who always see through it to the end.

Because the Russian know how is much more then ours, thanks to years and years of research and hard work. If we don't start today we will be still deending on Russians and Americans for the next two generations to come.

 

[p2prada]

Check out how much T 90 was tested and how DRDO had helped in correcting there shooting ability. Now DGMF (I am stopping using the army term because I don't want to mix the common soldiers with the DGMF) wants to have AC in T 90 because the electronics fail in the heat of desert whereas arjun electronics work in heat without the AC.

I dont deny it.

The answer for this is just google the things before jumping in to conclusions . You have read the article right what it said was the LCA was a technology demonstrator and now getting a reality so it is not DELAYED as the media is running around. Regarding AoA the IOC is 20 degree and FOC is 22 degree. Check the kaveri program it has achieved a thrust of 83-85KN of afterburner thrust that is the same as the GE engine currently in use but they want 100KN engine. Check this in GTRE site about kaveri. But kaveri is getting used by Navy. So we are going to have our engines for our ships.

Good for the navy. But I want to see it on the LCA. It is easier to design a gas turbine engine for ships. Different for planes.

Check the history of F 16 A/B models they were famous to be known as widow makers but now they are one of the most feared planes? Do you know a simple reason why? Because forces supported the program.
Hope you are getting the point.

At the time the F-16s came out. There was NO FIGHTER capable of matching it outside the US. Call the F-16 what you want in the 70s. Nevertheless, it was the BEST fighter in the air at that time. The same cannot be said of the LCA.

Exactly and how much DRDO is spending? Again cut the crap.

Nice, remember this line. I will elaborate on it further.

They have merged there capabilities to make a plane. Check the FGFA history.

Thats not the point. The fact is the MIG corporation only worked on the aerodynamics aspect of the fighter. Something that was completely abandoned. Mig is now forced to work on the T-50, Sukhoi's designs. Meaning they were kicked out of their own progrm.

This clearly shows how arrogant you are. Do you head about pinaka? At what investment it is made? And you know Israel wants to collaborate in that project. Do you know the reason? Do you heard about ALH at what investment it is made? Do you heard about the Ready to eat food that you get in all the shops? It was made by DRDO for the soldiers and now they have given those tech to the companies like MTR and all. And now that revenue is getting used for funding the projects? Do you know about the life saving materials developed for high altitude operations? Do you know the composites used in LCA have a spin off that the people who lost there legs now get a very light legs because of the composites developed for use in LCA has found a way here. Do you know the the computers built for LCA has given birth to the "vikram" processors which are used in our GSLV and PSLV for guidance. And heard about the "Mayavi" EW suite developed for LCA? Check why israel is interest din it. Check the tech focus of DRDO of last 3 months in there site. Check on which stage they are for GaN based electronics.

A few successes by DRDO in other fields doesnot mean the army have to buy the ARJUNs.

From how many time the MiG29 is around? So what is supposed to be done here. Do you know that the lack heavily in composite technology. just google about our involvement in there FGFA and you will come to know what i am talking about here. Google why Israel is giving orders for composite material from India for use in UAV's.

If composites are the only reason to buy a fighter then why not build Bi-planes from the 30s and fly around. We still need to develop so many things. 30% of Chandrayaan I electronics are of american origin.

Define "The Best" which will be "The Best" forever

This makes no sense

From where you come across such things?

Nice can you tell me where the "indian" cryogenic engines have been applied. They are still in the LABS. Go check it out for yourself. I was in ISRO only last month. Off course you cant enter unless you are a college student, or in the military.

What do you want here? You wnat to be US in some time? You know how much funding those organizations get? You arrogant people will just ask for "The Best" then why don't you go and live in "The Best" country f)(* off from here. Useless cribbers

Stop making useless points. What makes you think US is the best country. Stop trying to judge ppl you have no idea about over a completely different topic.

Do you know that russians have a rule that come what may they will use only russian product? What is the reason behind that? Come what may they will support there industry. But because of BrahMos success they are changing the rule. Now only BrahMos is getting inducted in to there navy. Guess what is the reason?

One useful spinoff out of an existing technology. We developed guidance. The russians developed the engine and the seeker. Stop giving Brahmos as proof of your point. Most of the technology in the BRahmos is russian. Even now we need the russians to develop a hypersonic version of the missile.

Exactly ban the sale of everything and you will see every desi maal getting accepted.

And watch your army turning from hero to zero. Sell this line after some 30 years, then people will buy. We are not as idiotic as the chinese. Even they passed a law saying they will only buy indigenously made products and still continue to source russian engines.

I think I replied enough

You did not. All you were doing was make fun of me and post points that are completely irrevelant to WHY THE ARMY MUST BUY ARJUNs. All you were saying is DRDO can make ready to eat food so they are good.
This is hardly a discussion.

You stopp questioning about capabilities of professionals and I will stop. what do you think you are who is question the credibility of some scientist?

I have every right to question the credibility of any damn scientist as I want. This is DEMOCRACY if you have forgotten. I have a right to know where my tax money goes.

You answered it correctly. We need indigenous capabilities as well. Everything is necessary. And regarding the technology developed founding the way in civilian spaces. I have answered already.

We need indigenous capabilities. I have continously said that the ARJUN is superior to the T-90(3 posts). But, this superiority doesnot mean we can readily invest in the ARJUN.

And the technologies developed indigenously gives you the capabilities to use the equipments used by Army without any sections.

We are still far away from this to happen.

Then you are saying there is no need for developing anything right? Comeon show some rationality. Don't behave like an immature kid.

How many times do i have to tell you.

DRDO HAS TO DEVELOP MORE PLANES AND TANKS TO REACH THE SAME KIND OF EXPERTISE THAT ANY OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION CAN GIVE TO THEIR OWN ARMY'S.

Do you even read my posts?

DRDO HAS TO DEVELOP MORE THAN JUST THE LCA AND ARJUN. THEY HAVE TO KEEP DEVELOPING EVEN IF THERE ARE NO BUYERS. MEANING THEY CAN HANDLE LOSS, EVEN IF NOBODY BUYS ARJUN AND LCA.

I have already said this. I know exactly how many achievements DRDO has made. But, it doesnot mean the ARMY has to buy a tank they may not necessarily be able to maintain. Dont bit off more than you can chew. You will only CHOKE.

this is pure BS.

Brilliant assertion.

 

[nitesh]

I dont deny it.

So then what is the problem in accepting the arjun with some defects? No because it is russian it can be accepted or what?

Good for the navy. But I want to see it on the LCA. It is easier to design a gas turbine engine for ships. Different for planes.

So ship engines are useless things? The requirement was for 90KN it achieved 83-85Kn but rejected GE was chosed which gives the same as kaveri? Why not chosen the kaveri? You know the eurojet gives a max of 92-95KN thrust but it is in race for next batch of engines of which the requirement is for 100KN.

At the time the F-16s came out. There was NO FIGHTER capable of matching it outside the US. Call the F-16 what you want in the 70s. Nevertheless, it was the BEST fighter in the air at that time. The same cannot be said of the LCA.

Why not bring out the LCA and improve over it. The plain concept for which it is built. To replace the MiG 21 with 2 ton of payload only A2A and work on A2G in later batches. Check the recent news's it is coming out with 2052 which is an AESA. Why so much of things getting cramped in to it?

Nice, remember this line. I will elaborate on it further.

Do elaborate it

Thats not the point. The fact is the MIG corporation only worked on the aerodynamics aspect of the fighter. Something that was completely abandoned. Mig is now forced to work on the T-50, Sukhoi's designs. Meaning they were kicked out of their own progrm.

So what's the point they were not able to make a plane right. That is why that was abandoned.

A few successes by DRDO in other fields doesnot mean the army have to buy the ARJUNs.

You are running in circles. Come to some point and discuss. Cut the nonsense rents.

If composites are the only reason to buy a fighter then why not build Bi-planes from the 30s and fly around. We still need to develop so many things. 30% of Chandrayaan I electronics are of american origin.

he he he. So now you will suggest to drop ISRO also right they are are useless bunch right. They were not able to this do that. So they are useless. it is about seeing the glass is half empty or half full.

Nice can you tell me where the "indian" cryogenic engines have been applied. They are still in the LABS. Go check it out for yourself. I was in ISRO only last month. Off course you cant enter unless you are a college student, or in the military.

Now this is useless crap. So with which engine they are going above?

Stop making useless points. What makes you think US is the best country. Stop trying to judge ppl you have no idea about over a completely different topic.

Stop making nonsense and you will here a logical reasoning.

One useful spinoff out of an existing technology. We developed guidance. The russians developed the engine and the seeker. Stop giving Brahmos as proof of your point. Most of the technology in the BRahmos is russian. Even now we need the russians to develop a hypersonic version of the missile.

BrahMos is extension of yakot missile. indians have improved it. But they were not able to induct it although being better then the previous ones. Because if something is better they can't use it they will work on there technology to make it better otherwise they will use the existing ones. That is how the scientists gain the inspiration that ok forces are supporting them and they work hard to improve on things.

And watch your army turning from hero to zero. Sell this line after some 30 years, then people will buy. We are not as idiotic as the chinese. Even they passed a law saying they will only buy indigenously made products and still continue to source russian engines.

Exactly the point is that you use the things where you lack but don't abandon indigenous programs. Support the domestic industry by buying there products in numbers and improve over it. Check the marveka story.

You did not. All you were doing was make fun of me and post points that are completely irrevelant to WHY THE ARMY MUST BUY ARJUNs. All you were saying is DRDO can make ready to eat food so they are good.
This is hardly a discussion.

read the above

I have every right to question the credibility of any damn scientist as I want. This is DEMOCRACY if you have forgotten. I have a right to know where my tax money goes.

I am questioning the credibility of DGMF (not army) of accepting a product (T 90) which is not up to the mark. Why my tax money is getting wasted on a product which can't work in desert heat. And need AC to function, why it was not tested properly. And now money is getting wasted on AC. And why not use Arjun whose electronics when didn't worked with AC was rejected and not getting selected when it is working without AC.

We need indigenous capabilities. I have continously said that the ARJUN is superior to the T-90(3 posts). But, this superiority doesnot mean we can readily invest in the ARJUN.

So you are saying that take inferior product.

DRDO HAS TO DEVELOP MORE PLANES AND TANKS TO REACH THE SAME KIND OF EXPERTISE THAT ANY OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION CAN GIVE TO THEIR OWN ARMY'S.

And how to get it. Give a requirement keep changing it and keep them in continuous trials. Never accept any product in numbers. this is how you are saying. And if any international organization can give better then keep purchasing from them then why we need a domestic organization. Just scrap the organization only. give the money and get what you want internationally.

DRDO HAS TO DEVELOP MORE THAN JUST THE LCA AND ARJUN. THEY HAVE TO KEEP DEVELOPING EVEN IF THERE ARE NO BUYERS. MEANING THEY CAN HANDLE LOSS, EVEN IF NOBODY BUYS ARJUN AND LCA.

What is the whole fun of developing when no body is buying scrap the whole organization.

I have already said this. I know exactly how many achievements DRDO has made. But, it doesnot mean the ARMY has to buy a tank they may not necessarily be able to maintain. Dont bit off more than you can chew. You will only CHOKE.

The point is DGMF wants T 90 and want them in 1650 in numbers. yes take it. DGMF wants 600 odd T 72 to get upgraded that is also ok. But DGMF wants to have 3500 of tanks. So why not fill up the numbers with arjun?

Again some basics about a product:

Buyer gives the requirement (Don't keep changing the requirement) and buys them in numbers. Need not to be too high.
Buyer uses the product and suggests improvement.
there is nothing like an invincible product (read tank) which can not be defeated. Everyone has some plus and some negative points. No product is without defects. There is always chances of improvement. The point is to support the industry. There is nothing called THE BEST. Is it so difficult to understand.

 

[p2prada]

So then what is the problem in accepting the arjun with some defects? No because it is russian it can be accepted or what?

Far from it. The mean life for a tank is between 30-40 years. The ARJUN being inducted now would mean the ARJUN will be used till 2050. But, the IA want a futuristic tank in another 10 maybe 15 years. Jumping from a 40 ton class tank to a 60 ton class tank now is fine. But, reverting to a new generation tank in just 15 years is a logistical nightmare that the IA is not yet equipped to handle. Plus, maintaining a 60 ton tank is very difficult. Similar to the differences in handling a Mig-29 and a Su-30MKI. I have already mentioned it before, the army will have to upgrade its current maintainance centers to handle a tank that will have 4 crews compared to 3 in the T-90. Will guzzle more fuel. Will need new transports.

It is not easy. The army will have to spend double of what it is already spending on the T-90( a cheaper tank to the ARJUN).

So ship engines are useless things? The requirement was for 90KN it achieved 83-85Kn but rejected GE was chosed which gives the same as kaveri? Why not chosen the kaveri? You know the eurojet gives a max of 92-95KN thrust but it is in race for next batch of engines of which the requirement is for 100KN.

The kaveri engine on fighters have problems. They are not equipped to fly at high altitudes. Even Snecma is finding it difficult to fix the problems in the kaveri. In one high altitude test, the kaveris blades were broken due to problems that have not yet been revealed. Power is not the only criteria to say if the engine is good or not. Kaveri on ships is a useless topic for this discussion.

Why not bring out the LCA and improve over it. The plain concept for which it is built. To replace the MiG 21 with 2 ton of payload only A2A and work on A2G in later batches. Check the recent news's it is coming out with 2052 which is an AESA. Why so much of things getting cramped in to it?

LCA is still not ready. How many times do i have to tell you?? It will get its FOC only in 2010. 2 years to go. The IAF wont buy a fighter unless the ASR is achieved.

So what's the point they were not able to make a plane right. That is why that was abandoned.

NO. It was only because Sukhois design was SUPERIOR.

You are running in circles. Come to some point and discuss. Cut the nonsense rents.

LOL You are the one running in circles. Stick to the point. You were giving DRDOs other products as a reason to buy the ARJUN.

he he he. So now you will suggest to drop ISRO also right they are are useless bunch right. They were not able to this do that. So they are useless. it is about seeing the glass is half empty or half full.

When did i say that ISRO and DRDO have to give up. Is your knowledge in English that bad. How many times have i already told that DRDO has to continue developing new planes and fighters. same with ISRO. Did i say that the PSLV was american. I only said some satellite components were american. thats all. And you concluded that ISRO must be dropped. NICE.

Now this is useless crap. So with which engine they are going above?

Russian supplied cryogenic engines that are without TOT. Even the Chinese are using russian cryogenic engines. India has been using russian engines since the 90s and are continuing to do so even now. The indian cryogenic engines have only recently successfully been tested for dry runs. It ran for 720 seconds for the first time.

Stop making nonsense and you will here a logical reasoning.

LOL so your logic is that we must buy F-16s and go sit in the US or buy LCA and sit in india. Nice.

BrahMos is extension of yakot missile. indians have improved it. But they were not able to induct it although being better then the previous ones. Because if something is better they can't use it they will work on there technology to make it better otherwise they will use the existing ones.

We improved it with russian HELP. And how?? Russia came to us with plans and asked for funding. we were ready. Then the russians told us to develop the guidance and coding for the missile. The russians then went on to develop the seeker and the engine. The russians did all the difficult part. We did the easy ones. Since it was wholly funded in india. It became an indian product. Thats all. They came to us simply bcause they did not have the money. Thats how we got the Brahmos. Simple.

That is how the scientists gain the inspiration that ok forces are supporting them and they work hard to improve on things.

Scientists don't gain inspiration from the army. Where did you get that from. Scientists always like to test the limits of their knowledge. They are not bothered if the army does not buy their product unless they get the chance and the funding required to complete their research. There have been so many scientists in history who did their research for themselves. They were not bothered about anyone else. Do you think Oppenheimer, the man who invented the atomic bomb, created the atomic bomb with the single hope that the ARMY will USE it. He hated the idea of actually using the bomb. He did it only because he wanted to see how far he can go.

Exactly the point is that you use the things where you lack but don't abandon indigenous programs. Support the domestic industry by buying there products in numbers and improve over it. Check the marveka story.

The domestic industry is supported anyways. T-90s or ARJUNs. The workers in avadi are working on both.
Like i already said. DRDO can finish the LCA and ARJUN. They can continue to make newer versions. Then once their version is good enough. They can sell to the IAF and IA.

I am questioning the credibility of DGMF (not army) of accepting a product (T 90) which is not up to the mark. Why my tax money is getting wasted on a product which can't work in desert heat. And need AC to function, why it was not tested properly. And now money is getting wasted on AC. And why not use Arjun whose electronics when didn't worked with AC was rejected and not getting selected when it is working without AC.

The ARJUN cannot handle AC. The present engine is already underpowered.
T-90s are facing teething problems. So, did the T-72s in the 80s. These problems can be rectified by the russians once production starts.

So you are saying that take inferior product.

Simply because we dont have the required funds to finance another new tank.

And how to get it. Give a requirement keep changing it and keep them in continuous trials. Never accept any product in numbers. this is how you are saying. And if any international organization can give better then keep purchasing from them then why we need a domestic organization. Just scrap the organization only. give the money and get what you want internationally.

no point replying to this. I have made myself clear on what DRDO should do very clearly many times.

What is the whole fun of developing when no body is buying scrap the whole organization.

Oh! Nice! Now it is about FUN and not about capability.

The point is DGMF wants T 90 and want them in 1650 in numbers. yes take it. DGMF wants 600 odd T 72 to get upgraded that is also ok. But DGMF wants to have 3500 of tanks. So why not fill up the numbers with arjun?

It is not 600 t-72s. It is 1500 T-72s.
IA has kept the option of keeping the indian version Tank-Ex open for purchase, whenever DRDO delivers it. IA plans to fill up the remaining with Tank-Ex rather than waste money on the ARJUN.

Again some basics about a product:

Buyer gives the requirement (Don't keep changing the requirement) and buys them in numbers. Need not to be too high.
Buyer uses the product and suggests improvement.
there is nothing like an invincible product (read tank) which can not be defeated. Everyone has some plus and some negative points. No product is without defects. There is always chances of improvement. The point is to support the industry. There is nothing called THE BEST. Is it so difficult to understand.

The positive and negative points are not the same for all tanks. That is what defines the best tank.

We need a future gen tank. Something that can plug the holes without investing blindly on the ARJUN, which will be termed obsolete only in 10 or 15 years.

 

[nitesh]

Far from it. The mean life for a tank is between 30-40 years. The ARJUN being inducted now would mean the ARJUN will be used till 2050. But, the IA want a futuristic tank in another 10 maybe 15 years. Jumping from a 40 ton class tank to a 60 ton class tank now is fine. But, reverting to a new generation tank in just 15 years is a logistical nightmare that the IA is not yet equipped to handle. Plus, maintaining a 60 ton tank is very difficult. Similar to the differences in handling a Mig-29 and a Su-30MKI. I have already mentioned it before, the army will have to upgrade its current maintainance centers to handle a tank that will have 4 crews compared to 3 in the T-90. Will guzzle more fuel. Will need new transports.

It is not easy. The army will have to spend double of what it is already spending on the T-90( a cheaper tank to the ARJUN).

This is a very lame excuse how you know that after 15 years it will be useless? This is the worst excuse i have ever heard. MiG 21 it is still getting used. And going to work till 2020. F 16 came in 1970 right now only US air force is getting them retired but others will keep using them till 2030-2035 time line. It is about accepting a product. So according to you the DGMF (not army) which is not ready to upgrade itself from now on will some how magically upgrade after 15 years. t 90 uses 3 crew same as T 72 checked the picture of georgia. There is no chance of any body survival. Arjun has separate compartment so there is a chance of survival. T 55 have 4 men crew which are still in use. You can migrate those crews here. Again it is very easy to run around giving n number of excuses.

The kaveri engine on fighters have problems. They are not equipped to fly at high altitudes. Even Snecma is finding it difficult to fix the problems in the kaveri. In one high altitude test, the kaveris blades were broken due to problems that have not yet been revealed. Power is not the only criteria to say if the engine is good or not. Kaveri on ships is a useless topic for this discussion.

So what is the solution? Give some solution don't just give excuses. this is R&D boss. you need to give the chance to the product nothing is perfect.

LCA is still not ready. How many times do i have to tell you?? It will get its FOC only in 2010. 2 years to go. The IAF wont buy a fighter unless the ASR is achieved.

It is not FOC it is IOC. And the numbers are committed yes let us leave this topic.

NO. It was only because Sukhois design was SUPERIOR.

At least we agree at some point leave it.

LOL You are the one running in circles. Stick to the point. You were giving DRDOs other products as a reason to buy the ARJUN.

Obviously it is needed until you accept a product make it in numbers you will never know what is going to come. If DRDO can make a product obviously it has potential to make other things work. Again you can run around with lame excuses.

When did i say that ISRO and DRDO have to give up. Is your knowledge in English that bad. How many times have i already told that DRDO has to continue developing new planes and fighters. same with ISRO. Did i say that the PSLV was american. I only said some satellite components were american. thats all. And you concluded that ISRO must be dropped. NICE.

you are wither to insane to understand anything or you simply don't want to understand. What is the fun if you keep changing the things you need to come to a point accept a product induct it and improve it. this is how the things work if you don't do this simple thing. Everything will be just waste. Is it so difficult to understand?

Russian supplied cryogenic engines that are without TOT. Even the Chinese are using russian cryogenic engines. India has been using russian engines since the 90s and are continuing to do so even now. The indian cryogenic engines have only recently successfully been tested for dry runs. It ran for 720 seconds for the first time.

That is for GSLV Mark III

LOL so your logic is that we must buy F-16s and go sit in the US or buy LCA and sit in india. Nice.

I can't interpret what r u saying

We improved it with russian HELP. And how?? Russia came to us with plans and asked for funding. we were ready. Then the russians told us to develop the guidance and coding for the missile. The russians then went on to develop the seeker and the engine. The russians did all the difficult part. We did the easy ones. Since it was wholly funded in india. It became an indian product. Thats all. They came to us simply bcause they did not have the money. Thats how we got the Brahmos. Simple.

So you are saying our scientists just taken the salary? And enjoying the life. Wake up buddy don't mess around with nonsense.

Scientists don't gain inspiration from the army. Where did you get that from. Scientists always like to test the limits of their knowledge. They are not bothered if the army does not buy their product unless they get the chance and the funding required to complete their research. There have been so many scientists in history who did their research for themselves. They were not bothered about anyone else. Do you think Oppenheimer, the man who invented the atomic bomb, created the atomic bomb with the single hope that the ARMY will USE it. He hated the idea of actually using the bomb. He did it only because he wanted to see how far he can go.

The money was given right keep the money running and don't use the product then what is the fun in wasting the money scrap the organization itself. Let those buggers do the work on there own only na. this is what u r trying to say here?

The domestic industry is supported anyways. T-90s or ARJUNs. The workers in avadi are working on both.
Like i already said. DRDO can finish the LCA and ARJUN. They can continue to make newer versions. Then once their version is good enough. They can sell to the IAF and IA.

When the hell it will be enough? Define that the technology keeps changing once one point is reached you will move to other point. It is a never ending cycle. Again try to cool off and understand a simple thing. Nothing is perfect nothing is THE BEST. Take some thing improve over it.

The ARJUN cannot handle AC. The present engine is already underpowered.
T-90s are facing teething problems. So, did the T-72s in the 80s. These problems can be rectified by the russians once production starts.

Arjun does not need AC to function. DRDO has already developed the cooling waste for the crew that will keep them comfortable. Why the teething problems can not be fixed with arjun? Answer this question.

Simply because we dont have the required funds to finance another new tank.

But we have money to spend every where to buy a foreign product.

no point replying to this. I have made myself clear on what DRDO should do very clearly many times.

No you have not done anything.

It is not 600 t-72s. It is 1500 T-72s.
IA has kept the option of keeping the indian version Tank-Ex open for purchase, whenever DRDO delivers it. IA plans to fill up the remaining with Tank-Ex rather than waste money on the ARJUN.

No it is 600. Tank Ex is not going to get used.

The positive and negative points are not the same for all tanks. That is what defines the best tank.

This means a tank can be good for one condition but not for other right?

We need a future gen tank. Something that can plug the holes without investing blindly on the ARJUN, which will be termed obsolete only in 10 or 15 years.

What is the future tank? From two years the DGMF is not able to come to any conclusion and don't expect to come to any conclusion soon. Because whatever you will define today will not be relevant after 10 years then what you will do develop something else. Reject whatever done? Try to understand a basic thing. It is about getting a product using it and improving it.

 

[p2prada]

This is a very lame excuse how you know that after 15 years it will be useless? This is the worst excuse i have ever heard. MiG 21 it is still getting used. And going to work till 2020. F 16 came in 1970 right now only US air force is getting them retired but others will keep using them till 2030-2035 time line. It is about accepting a product.

Right now, we are at the pinnacle of tank technology that started in 1916. This will all change in some 10 or 15 years. There is already talk of designing unmanned tanks. Stealth incorporated unmanned armoured vehicles. They will be smaller, faster and have more firepower than modern present day tanks. The Mig-21 is not being retired because LCA is still not ready. The IAF went for MRCA and upgrades with Mig-21(bis) because LCA was not ready. US has fighters set to replace the F-16 and F-15 with the F-35 and F-22 resply(new generation fighters) . Thats the reason they are being replaced. The others who will continue using them is because they dont have any replacements like the USAF has.Period. You forgot money too. USAF has the funding necessary to spend. IAF or any other airforce doesnot enjoy as much monopoly as the USAF. Its not just about accepting a product. It is more about financing and doctrine.

So according to you the DGMF (not army) which is not ready to upgrade itself from now on will some how magically upgrade after 15 years. t 90 uses 3 crew same as T 72 checked the picture of georgia. There is no chance of any body survival. Arjun has separate compartment so there is a chance of survival. T 55 have 4 men crew which are still in use. You can migrate those crews here. Again it is very easy to run around giving n number of excuses.

I used the number of crews statistics as a budget constraint, not operational logistics. Arjun means more money. T-90 uses less money.

So what is the solution? Give some solution don't just give excuses. this is R&D boss. you need to give the chance to the product nothing is perfect.

Exactly what I was telling you. This is R&D. The IAF is asking for solutions. DRDO is giving excuses. DRDO still need another 10 or 15 years before they can come out with a state of the art engine. Kaveri is at best a mid-level engine. Something that can be designed and built in just 2 or 3 years in the US.

Obviously it is needed until you accept a product make it in numbers you will never know what is going to come.

Not necessary. Mig-35 is a better product than the Mig-29. If nobody buys Mig-35, it doesnot mean the Mig-29 was the better aircraft. Mig can continue working on better variants. It is upto their customers to choose what to buy. Same with the IAF and IA with respect to DRDO.

If DRDO can make a product obviously it has potential to make other things work. Again you can run around with lame excuses.

That line in bold is poppycock. just because it was successful in something doesnot ensure automatic success in some other field. It is like saying, since india is good at cricket, india is automatically good at football and basketball.
How does success in ready to eat food ensure success in the tank industry or the aerospace sector. Different scientists are working on different products. It is not like DRDO has just 1 scientist working on all projects simultneously. There are different departments. Some departments have had more successes than other departments.

you are wither to insane to understand anything or you simply don't want to understand. What is the fun if you keep changing the things you need to come to a point accept a product induct it and improve it. this is how the things work if you don't do this simple thing. Everything will be just waste. Is it so difficult to understand?

The line in bold, this will work only if the services have no other options.

Look at this situation. The IAF has money enough for one plane. It has the option to choose from LCA, F-16 and Mig-35. ONLY 1 PLANE. Which will IAF choose??? I bet the IAF will choose between F-16 and the Mig-35. LCA wont even be given a chance.

The IAF and IA have a lot of options to choose from. It is not like they have sanctions and that the only plane they can choose is the LCA.

That is for GSLV Mark III

No. Russian cryogenic engines have been used in GSLV Mark I and II. Even the recent testing of the Mark III was carried out using Russian cryogenic engines. We have been using russian cryogenic engines since 1992.

I can't interpret what r u saying

You started off with nonsense. I replied the same way. If you dint understand then you dont need to understand.

So you are saying our scientists just taken the salary? And enjoying the life. Wake up buddy don't mess around with nonsense.

Yes, these people are humans first. They have families to feed and do everything else that other normal people do. Stop denying the fact that we need help from outside to do anything especially military. We need atleast another 30 years before we are completely self sufficient militarily. Until then there will be russian, US or israeli inputs. We lose so much money just requesting for help from other countries.

The money was given right keep the money running and don't use the product then what is the fun in wasting the money scrap the organization itself. Let those buggers do the work on there own only na. this is what u r trying to say here?

You have only shown the intelligence of a mussel in all our discussions. I will say it again. DRDO CAN HANDLE LOSS LIKE ANY OTHER PSU. PSUs ACTUALLY HANDLE LOSS SO THAT NORMAL CIVILIANS CAN LEAD NORMAL LIVES. Or else imagine ONGC suddenly increases petrol prices by another Rs 30 unilaterally to go back into profit. It is only because they are owned by the govt that they cannot do that. Similarly, DRDO can continue researching on newer variants until they can actually build a satisfactory product that can compete with the other countries. Until then the money they spend on research is a calculable risk that GOI can handle. Now did you inderstand. Or do u still want to be a mussel.

Nothing is perfect nothing is THE BEST.

Something is always at its BEST until it is surpassed. Even if it lasts only a moment.

Take some thing improve over it.

IAF doesnot need to induct the LCA with the sole purpose of IMPROVING it. IAF can buy other improved planes like F-16s and Mig-35s and ask DRDO to work on the LCA to keep improving it. IAF can then buy the improved version LCA.

Arjun does not need AC to function. DRDO has already developed the cooling waste for the crew that will keep them comfortable. Why the teething problems can not be fixed with arjun? Answer this question.

ARJUN IS EXPENSIVE. IA CANNOT NECESSARILY MAINTAIN A HEAVY MAIN BATTLE TANK AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THAT OF A T-90. ONLY THE US CAN.
IA IS NOT RICH ENOUGH.

anyways, teething problems are small problems that CAN BE FIXED. Teething problems come due to change in scenario. Like shifting from siberia to thar desert.

But we have money to spend every where to buy a foreign product.

The money being spent on a T-90 is way lesser than what is spent on ARJUN.

IA is inducting 124 ARJUNs only because IA's BUDGET can handle only 124 tanks.

No you have not done anything.

Simply because you dont know what i am saying.

No it is 600. Tank Ex is not going to get used.

All T-72s will undergo partial upgrades except for the 600, which will undergo full upgrades. IA cannot afford more than that.

This means a tank can be good for one condition but not for other right?

Some tanks will have more armour. Some will have more speed. Some will have more endurance. Some will have more technology. some will have better firepower. ETC ETC. Tanks work best on plains (eg:siberia) and deserts. Tanks are worst in forests, marshy areas and cities.

What is the future tank? From two years the DGMF is not able to come to any conclusion and don't expect to come to any conclusion soon.

Developing a new generation tank is still a concept. But all countries are working on it. Russia recently announced the development of unmanned tanks. They want a JV with India. DGMF have their own objectives. They will announce their plans at a later date. A future tank will make the present tanks pieces of junk.

Because whatever you will define today will not be relevant after 10 years then what you will do develop something else. Reject whatever done?

YES. Then go back to the computer store and sit with a CELERON or even a 4086. Dont buy Core2Duos and Quadcores. Sit with obsolete technology.

Try to understand a basic thing. It is about getting a product using it and improving it.

This statement holds true if you dont have a choice.
If you are NOT offered F-16, Mig-35, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen, F-18. Then you are stuck with LCA and you have to do your best with what you have. But, that is not the case right now.

 

[nitesh]

Right now, we are at the pinnacle of tank technology that started in 1916. This will all change in some 10 or 15 years. There is already talk of designing unmanned tanks. Stealth incorporated unmanned armoured vehicles. They will be smaller, faster and have more firepower than modern present day tanks. The Mig-21 is not being retired because LCA is still not ready. The IAF went for MRCA and upgrades with Mig-21(bis) because LCA was not ready. US has fighters set to replace the F-16 and F-15 with the F-35 and F-22 resply(new generation fighters) . Thats the reason they are being replaced. The others who will continue using them is because they dont have any replacements like the USAF has.Period. You forgot money too. USAF has the funding necessary to spend. IAF or any other airforce doesnot enjoy as much monopoly as the USAF. Its not just about accepting a product. It is more about financing and doctrine.

You are missing the whole point about LCA read the post no 603 again. LCA was a technology demonstrator then after a long time the funds were given for creating a fighter. So money is not there so F 16 is getting used. F 35 is available for sales to everybody in NATO why not buying money is not there in developed countries? read the history about slippages in f 35 program.
So from 1916 the tanks are the same no changes have happened?
Financing and doctrine are made when you save money and use it wisely there is no infinite money available. You use a decent product which may not be with all top of the line gadgets and use it effectively
You have seen discovery and typing it here. Has the DGMF has given the requirement till now? From two years they are running a circus have you heard the results of the seminar for designing a future tank just held in new delhi? No result what will be the future. Nothing has came out and nothing concrete will come out. Because no body has seen the future.

I used the number of crews statistics as a budget constraint, not operational logistics. Arjun means more money. T-90 uses less money.

Oh great give some statistics to say that T 90 is cheaper.

Exactly what I was telling you. This is R&D. The IAF is asking for solutions. DRDO is giving excuses. DRDO still need another 10 or 15 years before they can come out with a state of the art engine. Kaveri is at best a mid-level engine. Something that can be designed and built in just 2 or 3 years in the US.

What is the solution IAF is asking. Ha ha ha 10-15 years how the hell you came out with this figure. Simply trolling around. If that can be built in 2-3 years in US then why need DRDO right? Scrap the organization? Is that is what you are implying? Previous para what you talked about funding. Is the same funding is available to DRDO? No according to you first build a greatest ever product then the funding will be given. Oh but how to build a greatest ever product. ouch you need funding. Ouch........ So what is the solution?

Not necessary. Mig-35 is a better product than the Mig-29. If nobody buys Mig-35, it doesnot mean the Mig-29 was the better aircraft. Mig can continue working on better variants. It is upto their customers to choose what to buy. Same with the IAF and IA with respect to DRDO.

How it is better? Oh you have read the brochure so it is better. Is it getting accepted in RuAF. Answer is NO. This one is only built for Indian MRCA competition. Any other country will use this.. May be or may be not. But RuAF will use it? Definitely NOT. So who will fund for the whole life cycle? The answer is IAF. This customer seller relationship is very good excuse when you just don't want to support the industry domestically. Everybody knows where the Indian industry stands as compared to developed world. it needs support. If you be a hard nosed customer then slowly you stop getting response. just google about what happened to the tender issued by IA about ultra light howitzers. No body in the world responded. you know whay? Because no body is able to meet the parameters. So what is the end result of being asking for the best of the best of the best. IA got NOTHING. And who is suffering for those buggers sitting in the purchase department of the DGMF the ordinary soldier.{ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ, this link is in russian}

That line in bold is poppycock. just because it was successful in something doesnot ensure automatic success in some other field. It is like saying, since india is good at cricket, india is automatically good at football and basketball.

Bull crap. So now cricket and basket ball are equivalent to R&D gr8 going.

How does success in ready to eat food ensure success in the tank industry or the aerospace sector. Different scientists are working on different products. It is not like DRDO has just 1 scientist working on all projects simultneously. There are different departments. Some departments have had more successes than other departments.

Again a crap. Not understanding a basic thing. If you want to build an industry then you need to support it by accepting it's products. you can't keep on changing the requirements and make an excuse that this is not there that is not there. There has to be some start. Some where you need to start. Is it so difficult to understand?

The line in bold, this will work only if the services have no other options.

So when no body is giving you something then only you turn to domestic industry. Otherwise you will buy from foreign industry?

Look at this situation. The IAF has money enough for one plane. It has the option to choose from LCA, F-16 and Mig-35. ONLY 1 PLANE. Which will IAF choose??? I bet the IAF will choose between F-16 and the Mig-35. LCA wont even be given a chance.

Useless argument. A plane is not purchased as one plane. Get your basics right and talk this is a ridiculous argument.

The IAF and IA have a lot of options to choose from. It is not like they have sanctions and that the only plane they can choose is the LCA.

So the only way to choose LCA is to have sanctions everywhere?

No. Russian cryogenic engines have been used in GSLV Mark I and II. Even the recent testing of the Mark III was carried out using Russian cryogenic engines. We have been using russian cryogenic engines since 1992.

Boss check the chanhrayaan.

Yes, these people are humans first. They have families to feed and do everything else that other normal people do. Stop denying the fact that we need help from outside to do anything especially military. We need atleast another 30 years before we are completely self sufficient militarily. Until then there will be russian, US or israeli inputs. We lose so much money just requesting for help from other countries.

How this figure of 30 year has came? Why the hell other countries will give you the technology know how from which they earn money? Check the hungama of T 90 tech transfer?

You have only shown the intelligence of a mussel in all our discussions. I will say it again. DRDO CAN HANDLE LOSS LIKE ANY OTHER PSU. PSUs ACTUALLY HANDLE LOSS SO THAT NORMAL CIVILIANS CAN LEAD NORMAL LIVES. Or else imagine ONGC suddenly increases petrol prices by another Rs 30 unilaterally to go back into profit. It is only because they are owned by the govt that they cannot do that. Similarly, DRDO can continue researching on newer variants until they can actually build a satisfactory product that can compete with the other countries. Until then the money they spend on research is a calculable risk that GOI can handle. Now did you inderstand. Or do u still want to be a mussel.

So these organizations are for time pass. Waste the money in R&D and buy another product. Waste the whole money for supporting the other's industry. Instead why not put the money in supporting the domestic industry. It does not mean that completely choke off the imports. It is known that internal industries are not the best of the best of the nest. But it is as simple as this that now our industries are in a position for building a decent product which might/might not be the best of the best of the best. But it is decent product. let's cut down some imports and invest in improving the home grown product. So the money can be utilized in a good way. Is it so difficult to understand?

IAF doesnot need to induct the LCA with the sole purpose of IMPROVING it. IAF can buy other improved planes like F-16s and Mig-35s and ask DRDO to work on the LCA to keep improving it. IAF can then buy the improved version LCA.

What are you saying here? What is squadron strength as of now and how much is needed. Do you know this. Or you are simply doing BS. There is no money available to buy these many planes from outside because those are costly. Please get your basics correct and the comment

ARJUN IS EXPENSIVE. IA CANNOT NECESSARILY MAINTAIN A HEAVY MAIN BATTLE TANK AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THAT OF A T-90. ONLY THE US CAN.
IA IS NOT RICH ENOUGH.

No body is saying to stop purchasing the t 90 it is only about purchasing the arjun at a decent numbers because the tank fleet consists of 3500 tanks. And these can be easily incorporated.

anyways, teething problems are small problems that CAN BE FIXED. Teething problems come due to change in scenario. Like shifting from siberia to thar desert.

Now you have taken a complete turn. read your posts above you have said that the arjun can't run in desert because it is heavy whether t 90 can and it was tested to be used there. but the problem is that the electronics doesn't work at the heat of the desert. that is why AC is required. So it is not a TEETHING PROBLEM. It is a huge problem a very BIG ONE. Because the arjun was rejected because of this.

The money being spent on a T-90 is way lesser than what is spent on ARJUN.

How prove it.

IA is inducting 124 ARJUNs only because IA's BUDGET can handle only 124 tanks.

Prove it

Simply because you dont know what i am saying.

enlighten me with your wast knowledge sir

All T-72s will undergo partial upgrades except for the 600, which will undergo full upgrades. IA cannot afford more than that.

Again check the picture of georgia conflict what happened to those t 72 which were having ERA also. there are plenty available on net.

Some tanks will have more armour. Some will have more speed. Some will have more endurance. Some will have more technology. some will have better firepower. ETC ETC. Tanks work best on plains (eg:siberia) and deserts. Tanks are worst in forests, marshy areas and cities.

What is the point here then?

Developing a new generation tank is still a concept. But all countries are working on it. Russia recently announced the development of unmanned tanks. They want a JV with India. DGMF have their own objectives. They will announce their plans at a later date. A future tank will make the present tanks pieces of junk.

Easier said then done. Let us see when they come out with specifications from two years they are doing the circus and will keep doing it for how much time I don't know

YES. Then go back to the computer store and sit with a CELERON or even a 4086. Dont buy Core2Duos and Quadcores. Sit with obsolete technology.

I still buy celeron. I don't use the core 2 duos and all. Because celeron is fulfilling my need. This is simple crying for the best of the best of the best. Without knowing whether there is need of that or not.

This statement holds true if you dont have a choice.
If you are NOT offered F-16, Mig-35, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen, F-18. Then you are stuck with LCA and you have to do your best with what you have. But, that is not the case right now.

So you will buy LCA only when others will not sell you?

Again repeating my self

India is not a developed country it is a developing country. It is short of funds in almost every arena. To become developed nation we need to spend our money wisely. It means that India has to develop her industry in every sphere. Some where there will be little lapses but that does not mean to completely abandon the areas completely. India can import certain things until domestic industry comes up with a similar product. Once it comes up with one. It need not to be necessarily the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it means that reduce imports NOT COMPLETELY CUT THE IMPORTS. Support that product with a decent order and try to work with the industry to improve it. IT MAY NOT BECOME THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it will be a decent platform to learn because it is used in some real service and experience is gained. This will help in better understanding in the next version. And may be someday only domestic product will be used and imports will be not needed. Again it may not be THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it will service the forces in a decent way.

Is it so difficult to understand?

 

[Contrarian]

Um...in this heated debate, i would like to point out, that regardless of whether Arjun gets bought by the IA or not, the development of Arjun has given massive spinoffs. These will definitely be used in other areas.

For example, the development of LCA resulted in sufficient development of Indian technology, that we could attempt the upgrade of the Jaguar ourselves. There are spinoffs in every investment we take in defence products. The expertise gained by the scientists from developing LCA and Arjun is invaluable and cannot be gained by making another product through ToT. This is one path where you HAVE to go alone.

 

[p2prada]

You are missing the whole point about LCA read the post no 603 again. LCA was a technology demonstrator then after a long time the funds were given for creating a fighter. So money is not there so F 16 is getting used. F 35 is available for sales to everybody in NATO why not buying money is not there in developed countries? read the history about slippages in f 35 program.
So from 1916 the tanks are the same no changes have happened?
Financing and doctrine are made when you save money and use it wisely there is no infinite money available. You use a decent product which may not be with all top of the line gadgets and use it effectively
You have seen discovery and typing it here. Has the DGMF has given the requirement till now? From two years they are running a circus have you heard the results of the seminar for designing a future tank just held in new delhi? No result what will be the future. Nothing has came out and nothing concrete will come out. Because no body has seen the future.


Oh great give some statistics to say that T 90 is cheaper.


What is the solution IAF is asking. Ha ha ha 10-15 years how the hell you came out with this figure. Simply trolling around. If that can be built in 2-3 years in US then why need DRDO right? Scrap the organization? Is that is what you are implying? Previous para what you talked about funding. Is the same funding is available to DRDO? No according to you first build a greatest ever product then the funding will be given. Oh but how to build a greatest ever product. ouch you need funding. Ouch........ So what is the solution?


How it is better? Oh you have read the brochure so it is better. Is it getting accepted in RuAF. Answer is NO. This one is only built for Indian MRCA competition. Any other country will use this.. May be or may be not. But RuAF will use it? Definitely NOT. So who will fund for the whole life cycle? The answer is IAF. This customer seller relationship is very good excuse when you just don't want to support the industry domestically. Everybody knows where the Indian industry stands as compared to developed world. it needs support. If you be a hard nosed customer then slowly you stop getting response. just google about what happened to the tender issued by IA about ultra light howitzers. No body in the world responded. you know whay? Because no body is able to meet the parameters. So what is the end result of being asking for the best of the best of the best. IA got NOTHING. And who is suffering for those buggers sitting in the purchase department of the DGMF the ordinary soldier.{ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ, this link is in russian}


Bull crap. So now cricket and basket ball are equivalent to R&D gr8 going.


Again a crap. Not understanding a basic thing. If you want to build an industry then you need to support it by accepting it's products. you can't keep on changing the requirements and make an excuse that this is not there that is not there. There has to be some start. Some where you need to start. Is it so difficult to understand?


So when no body is giving you something then only you turn to domestic industry. Otherwise you will buy from foreign industry?


Useless argument. A plane is not purchased as one plane. Get your basics right and talk this is a ridiculous argument.


So the only way to choose LCA is to have sanctions everywhere?


Boss check the chanhrayaan.


How this figure of 30 year has came? Why the hell other countries will give you the technology know how from which they earn money? Check the hungama of T 90 tech transfer?


So these organizations are for time pass. Waste the money in R&D and buy another product. Waste the whole money for supporting the other's industry. Instead why not put the money in supporting the domestic industry. It does not mean that completely choke off the imports. It is known that internal industries are not the best of the best of the nest. But it is as simple as this that now our industries are in a position for building a decent product which might/might not be the best of the best of the best. But it is decent product. let's cut down some imports and invest in improving the home grown product. So the money can be utilized in a good way. Is it so difficult to understand?


What are you saying here? What is squadron strength as of now and how much is needed. Do you know this. Or you are simply doing BS. There is no money available to buy these many planes from outside because those are costly. Please get your basics correct and the comment



No body is saying to stop purchasing the t 90 it is only about purchasing the arjun at a decent numbers because the tank fleet consists of 3500 tanks. And these can be easily incorporated.


Now you have taken a complete turn. read your posts above you have said that the arjun can't run in desert because it is heavy whether t 90 can and it was tested to be used there. but the problem is that the electronics doesn't work at the heat of the desert. that is why AC is required. So it is not a TEETHING PROBLEM. It is a huge problem a very BIG ONE. Because the arjun was rejected because of this.


How prove it.


Prove it


enlighten me with your wast knowledge sir


Again check the picture of georgia conflict what happened to those t 72 which were having ERA also. there are plenty available on net.


What is the point here then?


Easier said then done. Let us see when they come out with specifications from two years they are doing the circus and will keep doing it for how much time I don't know


I still buy celeron. I don't use the core 2 duos and all. Because celeron is fulfilling my need. This is simple crying for the best of the best of the best. Without knowing whether there is need of that or not.


So you will buy LCA only when others will not sell you?

Again repeating my self

India is not a developed country it is a developing country. It is short of funds in almost every arena. To become developed nation we need to spend our money wisely. It means that India has to develop her industry in every sphere. Some where there will be little lapses but that does not mean to completely abandon the areas completely. India can import certain things until domestic industry comes up with a similar product. Once it comes up with one. It need not to be necessarily the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it means that reduce imports NOT COMPLETELY CUT THE IMPORTS. Support that product with a decent order and try to work with the industry to improve it. IT MAY NOT BECOME THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it will be a decent platform to learn because it is used in some real service and experience is gained. This will help in better understanding in the next version. And may be someday only domestic product will be used and imports will be not needed. Again it may not be THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it will service the forces in a decent way.

Is it so difficult to understand?

Your knowledge in ENGLISH is thoroughly lacking. Eg: When i said we are at the pinnacle of tank technology which BEGAN in 1916. I meant we have reached the highest point in tank design....the present generation. But, u thought I meant all tanks are the same as tanks in 1916.

There is no point replying to all your posts mainly cause of this barrier between us. You dont understand what i am trying to say.


My points are simple:
1) ARJUN IS EXPENSIVE. Go Google. It will take a 10 year old to realize that buying and maintaining a 60 ton vehicle is MORE than buying and maintaining a 46 ton vehicle.

Therefore, IA cannot buy the tank with its current budget. You dont need statistics to prove it.

The max we can do is sell all our current tanks and still only field about 1500 ARJUNs instead of 3500 smaller tanks.

2)LCA is still in the design stage. Exactly my point when YOU said LCA is a technology demonstrator. THE IAF DOESNOT BUY TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATORS. INFACT NO AIRFORCE DOES.

DRDO still need atleast 10 years of work on the LCA to come out with a fighter equal to the present gen F-16 BLK52, it can probably be a second version of the LCA that will be inducted. Until then DRDO has to CONTINUE working.

Once DRDO reaches that level with the LCA then and only then IAF can buy. Until then IAF can buy F-16, MIG-35, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen etc.

Since LCA is only a TD, how do u expect IAF to actually induct it.

 

[p2prada]

What is the solution IAF is asking.

nobody knows. Secrecy.

Ha ha ha 10-15 years how the hell you came out with this figure. Simply trolling around. If that can be built in 2-3 years in US then why need DRDO right? Scrap the organization? Is that is what you are implying?

Go read. 10 to 15 years is a realistic figure. Do u know where the F-22 stands compared to the F-15. F-22 is way ahead.

Previous para what you talked about funding. Is the same funding is available to DRDO?

You are mixed up. the US work on many engines at the same time. We can work only on 1 at the same time. We have enough funding for the kaveri program.

No according to you first build a greatest ever product then the funding will be given. Oh but how to build a greatest ever product. ouch you need funding. Ouch........ So what is the solution?

Unfortunately, that is what the IAF wants. Thats why they keep changing the requirements.

How it is better? Oh you have read the brochure so it is better. Is it getting accepted in RuAF. Answer is NO. This one is only built for Indian MRCA competition. Any other country will use this.. May be or may be not. But RuAF will use it? Definitely NOT. So who will fund for the whole life cycle? The answer is IAF.

It isnt being accepted by RuAF mainly cause of budget. Plus they have a hell lot of Mig-29s in their inventory. They are investing on sukhois for now. The Mig-35 was built particularly for india. But, there is little chance of india actually accepting the Mig 35. So, there is no question of Mig not being funded anyways.

This customer seller relationship is very good excuse when you just don't want to support the industry domestically. Everybody knows where the Indian industry stands as compared to developed world. it needs support.

Exactly my point. DRDO can CONTINUE what they are doing without being affected by IAFs decisions. They can handle LOSS.

If you be a hard nosed customer then slowly you stop getting response.

Not if you are the ONLY customer.

just google about what happened to the tender issued by IA about ultra light howitzers. No body in the world responded. you know whay? Because no body is able to meet the parameters. So what is the end result of being asking for the best of the best of the best. IA got NOTHING. And who is suffering for those buggers sitting in the purchase department of the DGMF the ordinary soldier.{ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ, this link is in russian}

Artillery is a touchy subject in india. It is more political than military. mainly because of the BOFORS scam. It is not like the technology is not available.

Bull crap. So now cricket and basket ball are equivalent to R&D gr8 going.

Thats why comparing army and airforce R&D or ARJUN and LCA R&D is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because DRDO was successful in one venture doesnot mean DRDO is successful in ALL ventures. I am giving examples to make you understand.

Again a crap. Not understanding a basic thing. If you want to build an industry then you need to support it by accepting it's products. you can't keep on changing the requirements and make an excuse that this is not there that is not there. There has to be some start. Some where you need to start. Is it so difficult to understand?

You are WRONG. The product does not need acceptance. It only needs FUNDING. Which is available anyways.

So when no body is giving you something then only you turn to domestic industry. Otherwise you will buy from foreign industry?

That is the state of R&D in India. You would have to be an idiot to compare an EF-2000 or Su-30MKI to LCA.

Useless argument. A plane is not purchased as one plane. Get your basics right and talk this is a ridiculous argument.

Again, you dont get examples. English is a difficult language. I know.

So the only way to choose LCA is to have sanctions everywhere?

That would sound just right. IAF will have no other choice except LCA.

Boss check the chanhrayaan.

PSLV doesnot use cryogenic engines. GSLV MK III uses the engine and it will have its first test flight in 2009.

How this figure of 30 year has came? Why the hell other countries will give you the technology know how from which they earn money? Check the hungama of T 90 tech transfer?

I did not say other countries will provide the technology. I said we will develop technologies that will make us self sufficient in 30 years. 30 years is a realistic figure. We dont even make good small arms yet.

So these organizations are for time pass. Waste the money in R&D and buy another product. Waste the whole money for supporting the other's industry. Instead why not put the money in supporting the domestic industry. It does not mean that completely choke off the imports. It is known that internal industries are not the best of the best of the nest. But it is as simple as this that now our industries are in a position for building a decent product which might/might not be the best of the best of the best. But it is decent product. let's cut down some imports and invest in improving the home grown product. So the money can be utilized in a good way. Is it so difficult to understand?

When did i say money spent on R&D is a waste. I said inducting ARJUN is a waste since it is not needed. Dont mix up ARJUN and R&D. They are both different.

What are you saying here? What is squadron strength as of now and how much is needed. Do you know this. Or you are simply doing BS. There is no money available to buy these many planes from outside because those are costly. Please get your basics correct and the comment

Foreign planes are more expensive simply because they are more capable than the LCA.

No body is saying to stop purchasing the t 90 it is only about purchasing the arjun at a decent numbers because the tank fleet consists of 3500 tanks. And these can be easily incorporated.

WRONG. Inducting ARJUN needs more money and is more time consuming. IA cant possibly handle the costs of maintaining 500+ Heavy MBTs.

Now you have taken a complete turn. read your posts above you have said that the arjun can't run in desert because it is heavy whether t 90 can and it was tested to be used there. but the problem is that the electronics doesn't work at the heat of the desert. that is why AC is required. So it is not a TEETHING PROBLEM. It is a huge problem a very BIG ONE. Because the arjun was rejected because of this.

HELL!!!! When did I SAY ARJUNS dont run in deserts. Which planet are you from?? Can U QUOTE MY EXACT WORDS PLZ. ARJUN clearly have a good ground pressure ratio. They can move in sand properly and are also proved to have better heat tolerance than the T-90. ARJUN was rejected because of different reasons.

Easier said then done. Let us see when they come out with specifications from two years they are doing the circus and will keep doing it for how much time I don't know

Exactly my point when I told the army policy makers have to get their act together and work on a new generation concept. Read my earlier posts. Glad u came to terms with atleast this one.

I still buy celeron. I don't use the core 2 duos and all. Because celeron is fulfilling my need. This is simple crying for the best of the best of the best. Without knowing whether there is need of that or not.

Nice, u proved my point. CELERONS are fulfilling your need. T-90s are fulfilling IA's needs. They dont NEED ARJUNS. Meaning they dont need Quadcores, they are happy with CELERONS.

So you will buy LCA only when others will not sell you?

Nice way to put it. But, u get my point.

Again repeating my self

How many times have i done the same.

India can import certain things until domestic industry comes up with a similar product. Once it comes up with one. It need not to be necessarily the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. But it means that reduce imports NOT COMPLETELY CUT THE IMPORTS. Support that product with a decent order and try to work with the industry to improve it. IT MAY NOT BECOME THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST.

Unfortunately in the military, it does not work that way. The indian armed forces cannot induct something that has never been tested. Plus, budget is of concern here.

But it will be a decent platform to learn because it is used in some real service and experience is gained. This will help in better understanding in the next version.

Exactly why IA is inducting only 124 ARJUNs. They are testing the product. You dont need 500+ tanks to do what you just suggested. IA needs a new generation tank nevertheless. IA wants parity with china and not pakistan after 15-20 years.

So, DRDO can continue to develop ARJUN MK2 and probably MK3. They can use this expertise to design a new generation tank. Which WILL be inducted by the army. Probably the MK3 version itself will be the new generation tank.

And may be someday only domestic product will be used and imports will be not needed. But it will service the forces in a decent way.

Is it so difficult to understand?

Exactly, that will take time. Like i suggested. Self-sufficiency will take atleast 30 years.

DRDO can work on military products without being concerned about selling it. DRDO is a property of GOI. The Indian GDP can handle FAILED products. DRDO can be a major LOSS making company and still make us self sufficient in 30 years. Simply because it is a PSU. A company that can handle LOSS.

To make it more clear. When i say LOSS, i am referring to PROFIT and LOSS. I am not suggesting DRDO actually LOST something.

And when i say self sufficient. I mean all military products are indigenous, ie, without imported parts.

 

[p2prada]

Um...in this heated debate, i would like to point out, that regardless of whether Arjun gets bought by the IA or not, the development of Arjun has given massive spinoffs. These will definitely be used in other areas.

For example, the development of LCA resulted in sufficient development of Indian technology, that we could attempt the upgrade of the Jaguar ourselves. There are spinoffs in every investment we take in defence products. The expertise gained by the scientists from developing LCA and Arjun is invaluable and cannot be gained by making another product through ToT. This is one path where you HAVE to go alone.

True, thats what i have been trying to tell. DRDO can continue to develop the ARJUN. Not buying ARJUN doesnot mean the END of DRDO.

The expertise gained by the scientists from developing LCA and Arjun is invaluable and cannot be gained by making another product through ToT.

True. But the domestic technology, LCA, is still not at the same level as that of F-16 etc. So, DRDO needs to continue working to bridge the gap, EVEN IF IAF DOESNOT BUY LCA.

 

[Contrarian]

True, thats what i have been trying to tell. DRDO can continue to develop the ARJUN. Not buying ARJUN doesnot mean the END of DRDO.



True. But the domestic technology, LCA, is still not at the same level as that of F-16 etc. So, DRDO needs to continue working to bridge the gap, EVEN IF IAF DOESNOT BUY LCA.

That is not possible mate. Without the user involvement, the product cannot be improved. This is because ANY Army or Airforce always wants the best equipment available, to them it doesnt matter whether its domestic or not.

Case in point is the Israeli Merkava Mk1. It was a shitty product at that time, but it was forced on the Israeli Army, and thus the user once gets committed to the product, helps no end to improve it with the designer. With successive iterations the Merkava Mk4 has developed into a formidable tank, with no small help from their Army. Without them, Israeli Industries would not have been able to make it.

Without the IAF accepting LCA, it would mean a dead project, and everything learned would be wasted. Technology needs to be constantly updated, if it stands still, the next time we attempt to develop a fighter(manned or unmanned), we would have to go through the SAME development curve, as we would not have the relevant technologies of that time. It is unfortunate, but true. IAF would have to buy the LCA in numbers, such that it cant be neglected by the IAF, and also such that it doesnt compromise on their ability to wage war. The first product has to be accepted always.

 

[nitesh]

nobody knows. Secrecy.

But you some how know that DRDO is making excuses how?

Go read. 10 to 15 years is a realistic figure. Do u know where the F-22 stands compared to the F-15. F-22 is way ahead.

Dont mess the things tell me how this 10-15 years figure came from? no need for f 15 or F 22 BS

You are mixed up. the US work on many engines at the same time. We can work only on 1 at the same time. We have enough funding for the kaveri program.

So what is the way out of it?

Unfortunately, that is what the IAF wants. Thats why they keep changing the requirements.

And that is why they never get anything on time.

It isnt being accepted by RuAF mainly cause of budget. Plus they have a hell lot of Mig-29s in their inventory. They are investing on sukhois for now. The Mig-35 was built particularly for india. But, there is little chance of india actually accepting the Mig 35. So, there is no question of Mig not being funded anyways.

Why they are going ahead with sukhois?

Exactly my point. DRDO can CONTINUE what they are doing without being affected by IAFs decisions. They can handle LOSS.

Not product comes with 100% defect proof from the first day. After testing also lot of improvements got done. that is why the concept of MLU exist. If you don't get the product in to the service you industry will never learn any of those.

Not if you are the ONLY customer.

So you will nevery buy anything then why the money is getting wasted scrap the whole damn thing and keep buying from outside.

Artillery is a touchy subject in india. It is more political than military. mainly because of the BOFORS scam. It is not like the technology is not available.

But you are not getting it and not working on building domestic also what is the end result.

Thats why comparing army and airforce R&D or ARJUN and LCA R&D is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because DRDO was successful in one venture doesnot mean DRDO is successful in ALL ventures. I am giving examples to make you understand.

What are you trying to prove? Arjun is a failed product?

You are WRONG. The product does not need acceptance. It only needs FUNDING. Which is available anyways.

What? only needs funding? And then you say that this product is not useful then why you need funding? A vicious circle.

That is the state of R&D in India. You would have to be an idiot to compare an EF-2000 or Su-30MKI to LCA.

You are comparing different class of fighters so obviously you will not get any clear picture.

Again, you dont get examples. English is a difficult language. I know.

Obviously I can't comprehend you are just talking in air like just ONE PLANE each plane is different each has a different requirement each fulfills a different role each requires a different training. You can't just jump around by saying ONE PLANE.

That would sound just right. IAF will have no other choice except LCA.

Oh till that time it is a useless piece then.

PSLV doesnot use cryogenic engines. GSLV MK III uses the engine and it will have its first test flight in 2009.

There is no such thing as complete self sufficiency in space - quite a few of the components are procured from abroad and assembled here to allow a particular mission profile be it remote sensing ,communication or chandrayan

Having said that PSLV has the maximum indegenious component till date almost all basic systems are made in India -GSLV MK3 wil be even better

Regarding cryogenics as used in GSLV program only (PSLV ) does not use a cryo stage everything is being done from scratch or rather fundamentals here in India -the rocket engines ,the vacuum jacketed multilayer insulated piping system fro liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen piping ,the liquid oxygento liquid nitrogen sub cooling heat exchanger ,the liquid nitrogen vaporizer for payload bay purging before launch ,the associated control system and development of operating logic ,the turbo pumps ,the combustion chamber etc etc -in short GSLV mk3 will be the most indegeniuos of all rockets till date and also most powerful.

I did not say other countries will provide the technology. I said we will develop technologies that will make us self sufficient in 30 years. 30 years is a realistic figure. We dont even make good small arms yet.

How you will come to know the effectiveness of the products wnill using them in live services?

When did i say money spent on R&D is a waste. I said inducting ARJUN is a waste since it is not needed. Dont mix up ARJUN and R&D. They are both different.

R&D is done to develop a product? A product is based on a set of requirements. Once a product is made it amy/may not fulfill all the requirements but just based on this you can't dump the product especially if it is your first product.

Foreign planes are more expensive simply because they are more capable than the LCA.

Also you pay for there R&D in the money you pay them.

WRONG. Inducting ARJUN needs more money and is more time consuming. IA cant possibly handle the costs of maintaining 500+ Heavy MBTs.
[

How prove it.

HELL!!!! When did I SAY ARJUNS dont run in deserts. Which planet are you from?? Can U QUOTE MY EXACT WORDS PLZ. ARJUN clearly have a good ground pressure ratio. They can move in sand properly and are also proved to have better heat tolerance than the T-90. ARJUN was rejected because of different reasons.

What are the reasons?

Exactly my point when I told the army policy makers have to get their act together and work on a new generation concept. Read my earlier posts. Glad u came to terms with atleast this one.

Exactly my point is the DGMF is messing around without having any idea about what they want and wasting the money.

Nice, u proved my point. CELERONS are fulfilling your need. T-90s are fulfilling IA's needs. They dont NEED ARJUNS. Meaning they dont need Quadcores, they are happy with CELERONS.

No your line was this that CELRON are outdated. Now you are taking complete turn here check you statement again

Nice way to put it. But, u get my point.

You are simply saying till the point I will get a phren maal i will only buy that till the time all domestic maal is a crap.

How many times have i done the same.

You have not done anything except making baseless arguments

Unfortunately in the military, it does not work that way. The indian armed forces cannot induct something that has never been tested. Plus, budget is of concern here.

So all the products are tested and 100% this is what you are saying? then how the electronics stooped working and AC is needed? Now AC is not eating in to the budget?

Exactly why IA is inducting only 124 ARJUNs. They are testing the product. You dont need 500+ tanks to do what you just suggested. IA needs a new generation tank nevertheless. IA wants parity with china and not pakistan after 15-20 years.

Now this china angle... where the hell china and India are going to see tank wars? in himalayas? And what is that new generation of tank any ways? They will keep deciding and keep changing the requirement and that will again end in a disaster

So, DRDO can continue to develop ARJUN MK2 and probably MK3. They can use this expertise to design a new generation tank. Which WILL be inducted by the army. Probably the MK3 version itself will be the new generation tank.

When you don't want MK1 then what is the guarantee you will like the MK2 or Mk3

Exactly, that will take time. Like i suggested. Self-sufficiency will take atleast 30 years.

How this magical figure of 30 years reached?

DRDO can work on military products without being concerned about selling it. DRDO is a property of GOI. The Indian GDP can handle FAILED products. DRDO can be a major LOSS making company and still make us self sufficient in 30 years. Simply because it is a PSU. A company that can handle LOSS.

So you are saying just waste the taxpayer money for something that is not going to see the light? What sort of logic is this?

To make it more clear. When i say LOSS, i am referring to PROFIT and LOSS. I am not suggesting DRDO actually LOST something.

DRDO is losing the valuable experience gained in developing a product which is not going to get inducted in sufficient numbers.

And when i say self sufficient. I mean all military products are indigenous, ie, without imported parts.

You need to start some where. Try to understand the word START. Is it so difficult to understand?

 

[nitesh]

Your knowledge in ENGLISH is thoroughly lacking.

Oh and you are the only ONE here

Eg: When i said we are at the pinnacle of tank technology which BEGAN in 1916. I meant we have reached the highest point in tank design....the present generation. But, u thought I meant all tanks are the same as tanks in 1916.

How you know this is the highest point here?

There is no point replying to all your posts mainly cause of this barrier between us. You dont understand what i am trying to say.

And you are not getting what I am trying to say. You are just running with the best of the best of the best funda.

My points are simple:
1) ARJUN IS EXPENSIVE. Go Google. It will take a 10 year old to realize that buying and maintaining a 60 ton vehicle is MORE than buying and maintaining a 46 ton vehicle.

The point is a 58.5 ton vehicle gives you more crew protection the tank crews for army is like pilots to IAF these are rigorously trained and very precious resource in case of a hit on 46 ton vehicle which does not have a separate compartment for keeping explosive will make usre that no one survives whereas the 58.5 ton vehicle will ensure that they survive now which cost is higher?

Therefore, IA cannot buy the tank with its current budget. You dont need statistics to prove it.

And without proper testing then found that those does not perform teh role that they are supposed to do. For the same reason the domestic product was rejected.

The max we can do is sell all our current tanks and still only field about 1500 ARJUNs instead of 3500 smaller tanks.

What? How you came to know this never heard of it any where.

2)LCA is still in the design stage. Exactly my point when YOU said LCA is a technology demonstrator. THE IAF DOESNOT BUY TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATORS. INFACT NO AIRFORCE DOES.

Now this is ridiculous read that post again oh you had not read that till now read the excerpt

But in 1990-91, the government felt that so much of a risk could not be taken and the requirement of seven prototypes was split into two phases: two technology demonstrators (TD) followed by five prototypes. In the TD stage we were told that no sensor or weaponisation was required; only certain technologies were to be demonstrated. In April 1993, an amount of Rs 2,188 crore was allocated only for the TD, implying that before this, funds were not available to launch the full scale programme. The technologies needed to be demonstrated were composite-based wing structure, digital fly-by-wire flight control system, all digital avionics and computer-based control of electro-mechanical systems.

In January 2001, the TD1 was flown and the government saw the promise in the programme. In November 2001, the government gave the go-ahead to start work on the proto-vehicles (PV), which are basically meant for sensors and weapons’ integration. Till this time, the government did not fund us to make a fighting machine or PVs for which funds to the tune of Rs 3301 crore were released then. The sanction fund of Rs 3,301 crore is not only for the proto-vehicles but for the limited serial production (LSP) of eight aircraft, including the infrastructure needed for them to establish a production line of eight aircraft per annum. This was the turning point for the programme. In June 2002, we flew the TD2 and in November 2003, we flew PV1.

There was a transformation at this stage as we realised that an entire generation of electronics had changed by 2001. Fortunately, by 1998-99, we decided to make the entire avionics of the aircraft with an open system of architecture. Hence, the PV2 that flew in December 2005 was with an open system of architecture. The advantage is that it allows us to tackle obsolescence of electronic hardware. In this process, we were able to make nearly 80 per cent of avionics indigenously. Today, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is very happy with us on this issue because we have the most current concept of avionics in the aircraft. In December 2006 we flew PV3, and in April 2007 the LSP1 version. The LSP2 was flown recently in June 2008. Today, we have seven aircraft in flying condition: TD1, TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, LSP1 and LSP2. Our first trainer aircraft is round the corner, probably in another two months. We are now very close to programme completion. We are looking for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December 2010 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by 2012. In March 2006, the IAF placed the order for 20 aircraft in IOC configuration.

DRDO still need atleast 10 years of work on the LCA to come out with a fighter equal to the present gen F-16 BLK52, it can probably be a second version of the LCA that will be inducted. Until then DRDO has to CONTINUE working.

How this 10 year and Blk 52 come from? On what basis you will compare? Enlighten me pls.

Once DRDO reaches that level with the LCA then and only then IAF can buy. Until then IAF can buy F-16, MIG-35, EF-2000, Rafale, Grippen etc.

You just said so many planes? Are they similar? On what basis they are similar? Do they perform the role of LCA?

Since LCA is only a TD, how do u expect IAF to actually induct it.

already posted the excerpt read it and then reply.