Anti-submarine copters inducted in Pak Navy

[Myth_buster_1]

the question is what other platforms CAN be compared with the Z9 and what does India have in terms of ASW heli's?

the Z9 would be a good investment if it comes with ToT....so that we can actually learn to make heli's and with time improve and make more potent helis by oursevles!!

Their is no point of operating a platform which can not even provide basic maritime security surveillance and even S-100 can perform duties much more effectively. Z-9 only suites for F-22P ASW role and nothing more then that and i dough PN would be interested in raising a independent ASW heli squadron. On the other hand, India operates superior KA-32.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Thats not the issue. Most of today's pakistan military acquisition involves surplus amount of spares "F-16" is the prime example which assures the availability during war time.

Well with that logic, i believe we should have to spend millions on acquisition of just spare parts for everything we buy & if war doesn't comes by the time normal spare reserves are finished then what ? Ground the equipment & hold the war spare reserves in the hope that one day war will come.

Also, F-16 is a critical component of our defense, while a helicopter for ASW is not. We can't compare them in their important

the current version of Z-9 we are getting are nothing but reverse engineered 1980s Dauphin with indigenous subsystems. We don't have alternate for F-16s but for ASW helicopters we do have.

Sea king is merely a utility helicopter so ASW and Utility chopper is not a good combination.

Well if they are reverse engineered designs then i don't understand how come the Chinese have made the Z-9W/WA/WE, Z-9D, Z-9E & Z-9EC versions, shouldn't they have stick to the original Z-9A/B versions? The Z-9W/WA/WE version, which even the french had not made in numbers or even operational. That's strange, Isn't it ?? How come Chinese have been able to use more composite components in strengthening & lighting the helicopter. I do believe the Chinese are making the engines in their own country too.

Yes Sea King is a utility helicopter, that is why i did not mention it as a ASW role helicopter, rather a helicopter in this class can be used for transporting a heavier load of ship supplies, men to & from the ships at sea, evacuate more number of people in case of emergencies etc etc. Just like we have more then one helicopter in the army aviation for multiple roles, PN can have too for its use.

Super Lynx and Z-9 ASW have no comparison as simple as that, yes both are pretty old designs but thats not the issue.

I have not even mentioned the armaments super lynx can carry.

Neither i did any comparison between them as both are of different class but performance wise many things are same. Z-9 has a longer ferry range then a Lynx, both can carry nearly same number of troops, both can take 2 torpedoes & Chinese torpedoes are copies of current in-service American & Italian ones. Both can launch small range AshM missile & the armed attack versions have nearly the same equipment, 8 ATGMs for Lynx, 8 for Z-9 versions too.

Z-9 & its French counter parts are seeing service in numbers & customer wise numbers more then then Lynx helicopters in service.


My point is, to update the Chinese Z-9 with western ASW equipment, just like the PN Breguet Atlantic & Fokker have been updated with Thompson-CF Ocean Master radar & electronic suite & equipment.

We can have round the clock operational helicopters without any fear or spare parts & grounding them with state of the art ASW western equipment.

 

[Super Falcon]

because some how or other we have to counter this submarine becoz indian arihant is may be similar to it and these heli need to counter it and which is best helicopter in the world for anti sub role

 

[wangrong]

---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

 

[batmannow]

Z-9 is a basic version of 1980s naval Dauphin and for today's ASW standard it is pretty outdated but a decent platform for F-22P. I dont see why Pakistan navy should acquire a squadron of 1980s standard ASW helicopter and mind you todays Dauphin is very different.
IMO if PN does decides to raise a independent squadron, Super lynx is a perfect ASW ASuW helicopter.
20-25 Z-9 is not worth the investment.

Dear, sory!
but you had , to change your Anti-CHINA , MINDED THINKING!
any defence, deals with west , take too much time , & too much money!
for the medieum & short shighted threats , CHINA is the best!
& FOR PAKISTAN, its simply GREAT!

I GUSS, its far better, thn what we are getting from USA, i mean retired COBRAS?

 

[wangrong]

 

[ice_man]

why isn't pakistan waiting for the WZ-10 to come out!

and as for chia i am wondering why are we not getting some chinese Destroyers as well they are cheaper and more viable with less problems of sanctions!

fine the chinese are behind in technology but they are coming up fast!!! and its a good time to get on the boat before the world realizes that CHINA is actually good in terms of military hardware!!!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Well with that logic, i believe we should have to spend millions on acquisition of just spare parts for everything we buy & if war doesn't comes by the time normal spare reserves are finished then what ? Ground the equipment & hold the war spare reserves in the hope that one day war will come.

What are you talking about mate sorry i did not get your logic? spares are very essential if you want to secure your units operational capabilities.

Well if they are reverse engineered designs then i don't understand how come the Chinese have made the Z-9W/WA/WE, Z-9D, Z-9E & Z-9EC versions, shouldn't they have stick to the original Z-9A/B versions?

Good for China if they have developed so many versions. But my point still stands, Z-9 ASW uses systems from older variant of Panther or is it that some how China is able to master reverse engineering and make it par to today's standard?

The Z-9W/WA/WE version, which even the french had not made in numbers or even operational. That's strange, Isn't it ??

Quite strange strange, kindly give me one variant is Z-9 which is entirely new concept.

MH/HH-65 Dolphin

Main article: HH-65 Dolphin

The SA 366 G1 air-sea rescue
SA 365 F/F1
Naval version of the AS365 N.
SA 365 H
Military version of the SA 365 C.
SA 365 K
Military version of the AS365 N2.
SA 365 M
Military version of the AS365 N2.

Military AS365 Ns are designated as AS 565 Panthers and are available in the following versions:
AS565 AA/AB
Attack versions.
AS565 MA/MB
Naval search & rescue versions.
AS565 SA/SB
ASW (Anti Submarine Warfare) versions.
AS565 UA/UB
Utility versions.

How come Chinese have been able to use more composite components in strengthening & lighting the helicopter. I do believe the Chinese are making the engines in their own country too.

Unfortunately they are not even making engine for their new project "z-10" and have to import it. Once you have gained technical know how to make capability from reverse engineering then its not hard to add composites to the air frame.

Yes Sea King is a utility helicopter, that is why i did not mention it as a ASW role helicopter, rather a helicopter in this class can be used for transporting a heavier load of ship supplies, men to & from the ships at sea, evacuate more number of people in case of emergencies etc etc. Just like we have more then one helicopter in the army aviation for multiple roles, PN can have too for its use.

Your point is right but whats the logic behind combination of two different purpose helicopters?

Neither i did any comparison between them as both are of different class but performance wise many things are same. Z-9 has a longer ferry range then a Lynx, both can carry nearly same number of troops, both can take 2 torpedoes & Chinese torpedoes are copies of current in-service American & Italian ones. Both can launch small range AshM missile & the armed attack versions have nearly the same equipment, 8 ATGMs for Lynx, 8 for Z-9 versions too.

LOL Z-9 is Dauphin! The general characteristic stays the same.

Z-9 & its French counter parts are seeing service in numbers & customer wise numbers more then then Lynx helicopters in service.

Lets put it this way. Dauphin and Lynx are in much much more numbers and in services with more users then Z-9. I have nothing against the new variants of Dauphin and Panthers and in fact no matter how much Dauphin has been produced it does not change the fact that Super lynx are by far superior ASW chopper then both. And since the discussion has already been brought up regarding raising a independent naval rotary wing squadron then "Future Lynx" is a worth the investment for PN because dedicated ASW choppers are not meant for "maritime surveillance/patrol".

My point is, to update the Chinese Z-9 with western ASW equipment, just like the PN Breguet Atlantic & Fokker have been updated with Thompson-CF Ocean Master radar & electronic suite & equipment.

I dough PN is going to modify anything much as yet. current systems have to serve its 10-15 years term and then could given a MLU.

We can have round the clock operational helicopters without any fear or spare parts & grounding them with state of the art ASW western equipment.

Self contradictory statement. You said their is a risk of sanctions of spares and yet you say it should be upgraded with western systems? Dont those systems require spares?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Dear, sory!
but you had , to change your Anti-CHINA , MINDED THINKING!
any defence, deals with west , take too much time , & too much money!
for the medieum & short shighted threats , CHINA is the best!
& FOR PAKISTAN, its simply GREAT!

I GUSS, its far better, thn what we are getting from USA, i mean retired COBRAS?

let me make one thing clear. I am not anti-china or anything like that. I am merely concerned at Pak defence requirements and dont really care where it comes from as long as it serves its purpose.
Like i said before. Z-9 with its capabilities is just meant for light and medium tech frigate. but if we blindly accept that Z-9 is a sub killer or pakistan has gained access to one of the best ASW chopper is just nothing but BS and thats what i am trying to clear. Z-9 ASW does not serve the purpose of maritime surveillance/patrol so their is no point of raising a squadron of "ASW". We already have P-3C and soon OHP for coastal defence ASW.

 

[HAIDER]

Is it westland lynx ,exported to China.



Eurocopter Dauphin / Panther

French Marines

 

[TaimiKhan]

Is it westland lynx ,exported to China.

Nops , French Frelon & Panther & Dophin series were.

 

[Penguin]

The AS565 MB is the naval version of the Panther family of helicopters. This all-weather, multi-role light helicopter can be operated from ship decks or offshore to cover a vast array of naval missions such as maritime surveillance, search and rescue (SAR), casualty evacuation, vertical replenishment, offshore patrolling and counter-terrorism. The AS565 MB is the ideal complementary asset for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface warfare (ASuW) tasks, such as submarine and surface target destruction: It can launch its own torpedoes and provide Over-the-Horizon Targeting (OTHT) to surface ships.

Overview_AS565_UB_MB - Eurocopter, an EADS company

Naval Missions

For all types of naval missions, the AS565 MB perfectly fits the bill. Quiet and cost effective, the AS565 MB significantly multiplies a surface ship’s ability to conduct surveillance, Anti-Surface unit Warfare (ASuW) and Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW). With an endurance of four hours, the AS565 MB is an affordable and valuable alternative to medium-class helicopters which are limited in their ability to perform full anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare (ASW/ASuW) missions. AS565 MB is an enabler and a force multiplier with an excellent record.

Maritime surveillance

Surface ships can only search within a limited area due to limitations imposed by its aerial height and speed. Equipped with an advanced search radar, the AS565 MB increases a ship’s capacity to perform surveillance by a factor of 10.

Anti Surface Warfare and Over-The-Horizon-Targeting
The AS565 MB can perform Over-the-Horizon Targeting (OTHT) for ships with long range anti-ship missiles. This quadruples surface ships’ effectiveness in anti-surface warfare (ASUW).

With the new generation of air launched anti-ship missiles such as MBDA’s Future Anti Ship Guided Weapon (FASGW), the AS565 MB acts as a ship’s principal weapon system, enabling it to search, classify, shadow and strike with precision well beyond the horizon without the ship ever being detected. The endurance of the AS565 MB at loiter speed is more than 4 hours in maritime surveillance and OTHT roles.

Anti-submarine warfare
Nowadays, surface ships are equipped with towed sonars. These sonars enable long-range submarine detection at variable depths far beyond a ship’s torpedo range. The AS565 MB is the perfect complementary asset for anti-submarine warfare (ASW): Ready either in the air or on the deck for torpedo attacks, the AS565 MB enables navies to strike farther, and allows ships to strike a submarine without having to close within the submarine’s own attack area

Shipborne operations
The AS565 MB is fully qualified to operate from over one hundred classes of NATO ships, and complies with NATO’s standardization agreements (STANAGs) regarding tie down fittings, fuel hoses, DC & AC connectors and deck grids for “harpoon” deck-lock securing devices.

This hydraulicallyactivated device enables the AS565 MB to land and take off from ship decks, regardless of the wind direction:
Landings and takeoffs are possible with +/- 8° roll
and +/- 2° pitch with a 45-knot headwind.

SAR mission Equipment - Eurocopter, an EADS company

The PLA Navy acquired a small number of the French Aérospatiale (now Eurocopter) AS 565 SA Panther naval helicopter in the late 1980s in order to support its new generation destroyers and frigates. The AS 565 Panther is the military version of the Eurocopter AS 365 Dauphin medium-weight multi-purpose twin-engine helicopter, and the AS 565 SA is the naval anti-submarine warfare (ASW) variant based on the SA 365 N2 design. The AS 565 SAs in the PLA Navy were seen operating from most Chinese indigenous surface combatant constructed after 1990. In the future these helicopters will be gradually replaced by the Chinese indigenous HAMC Z-9C, which was also based on the SA 365 N2 design.

Mission Equipments

The AS 565 Panther carries a French-made ORB-32 search radar surface search radar in the nose. ASW equipments onboard include a dipping sonar, active/ passive sonobuoys, and radio receiver.

Weapons

The AS 565 Panther is fitted with external pylon to carry a single Chinese indigenous ET52 anti-submarine torpedoes. The ET52 was a Chinese copy of the Italian Whitehead A244/S, using active/passive acoustic homing to a maximum range of 9.5km.

AS 565 Panther Naval Helicopter - SinoDefence.com

Zhi-9C/D Naval Helicopter

The Zhi-9C (Z-9C) is the naval helicopter developed by the Harbin Aircraft Manufacture Co. (HAMC) for shipborne anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and search and rescue (SAR) missions. The helicopter resembles the naval variant of the French Eurocopter AS 565 Panther, of which a small number is also operational with the PLA Navy, but the two helicopters have no direct link. The Z-9C was based on the airframe of the HAMC Z-9B (AS 365N Dauphin II copy), added with surface search radar and landing assistance system.

The Z-9C was designed for both ASW role, equipped with dipping sonar, sonar buoys, magnetic anomaly detector (MAD), and two external weapon pylons to carry 1~2 ET52 (A244/S copy) anti-submarine torpedoes. A second mission for the Z-9C is target detection and data relay. The helicopter could use its KLC-1 surface search radar to locate enemy surface vessels at ‘over-the-horizon’ distance, and transmit the target information to the YJ-83 anti-ship missile during its midcourse flight using the datalink antenna installed on the helicopter’s cockpit roof. Some Z-9Cs are configured for SAR missions with a hoist, FLIR unit, and searchlight.

A recent Internet-source photo revealed that the HAMC is currently developing an improved variant of the Z-9C designated Z-9D. The helicopter can carry two TL-10 anti-ship missiles developed by Hongdu Aviation Industry Group

Mission Equipments

The Z-9C carries an indigenous KLC-1 surface search radar developed by the Nanjing Electronic Research institute (14 Institute). The X-band radar was designed to search and track surface vessels, with a maximum detection range of 92km against fishing boat-sized targets and 118km against small- to medium-sized surface vessel.

ASW equipments onboard the Z-9C include a Type 605 (Chinese copy of the U.S. AN/AQS-13) dipping sonar, a box of 12 passive sonobuoys, four active sonobuoys, a temperature buoy and a maritime environment buoy. The helicopter is equipped with a radio receiver, allowing it to receive the signal of sonobuoys at 10km range when flying at 120km/h speed.

For search and rescue missions, the helicopter can be fitted with a 250kg-capacity hoist with winch and scoop fitted externally above the starboard side cabin door, an FLIR unit and a searchlight.

Weapons

The Z-9C is fitted with a pair of external pylon to carry 1~2 Chinese indigenous ET52 anti-submarine torpedoes. The ET52 was a Chinese copy of the Italian Whitehead A244/S, using active/passive acoustic homing to a maximum range of 9.5km.

The latest Z-9D can carry two Hongdu TL-10 lightweight anti-ship missiles under its weapon pylons. The missile uses active-radar homing and has a maximum range of 15km. The warhead is 30kg and flying speed is Mach 0.85.

Zhi-9C/D Naval Helicopter - SinoDefence.com

 

[ARSENAL6]

Nope... Only German subs will feature self defence weapon which has the advantage of firing while submerged... only few subs can fire SAMs but only on surface and a great great risk of being detected and destroyed.

I wonder If Pakistani Sub will be equip with Surface to Air Missles ?

The Anti-Sub -copters feature here on this thread can be equipped with such system like the Iron Fist and Trophy used on Israel tanks to counter any surface to air missle fired from subs.

Is there any plans for Pakistan to have these helicopters to carry Babu Missle ?
And what about developing new long range powerful torpedos sinces we now have an
anti-ship helicopter ?

 

[muse]

Babu Missle ?

Perhaps this is a lesser known though more lethargic sort of weapon?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

If we look at all the recent procurements that are surfacing up in pak millitarty---we see a change in mindset of the armed forces---we are not going all out for the best of the best anymore---.

You look at the the air force with their jf 17's and fc 20's---the navy with their F22's and Z 9's---even the air force was forced to buy chinese awacs---.

Pak millitary has seemingly decided that the best of the best does not work all the time---they have either made that decision either due to neccessity or that they realized that they are not as capable in making adecision as to what they want---they have opted for 80--90% compatibility to the enemy's equipment---reliable supply of parts and machinery would keep what is ours, floating for lot longer.

At first, due to the 2002 scenario and then the mumbai issue---pak millitary is on the run to fill up the gaps that it had due to lack of equipment and resource---.

The pak millitay's assessment about pak india relationships hit a brick wall after the mumbai attacks---even though everything was visible to one with an open mind and watchful eye---pakistan has paid a heavy heavy price due to the negligent and wrongful analysis by the pak millitary's threat assessment and analysis wing.

But the naval weaponery was on order long before that---the navy one more time blundered when the time came for putting its bid on the retiring british frigates a few years ago---which I believe either peru or chile picked up. Pak navy was again very casual in approaching the bidding---they again had a very poor assessment and analysis of other buyers vying for the same product---pak navy made a very low bid---I think it was chile---they came in with a much better and realistic bid and snacthed those frigates and caught pak navy napping.

So---there is lot more to what meets the eye.

Every army wants the best of the best---but at the end of the day---it has to fight with what it can get with the resources that it has----in car business we call it---CHAMPAGNE TASTE ON BEER BUDGET.