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Anti-submarine copters inducted in Pak Navy

So A more reliable more accurate analysis would be by a civilian living over seas not officially related to military knows better then real soldiers who have real experience know their job well know their requirements know the reality and on top of all have real hands experience with this topic.
amazing.

I think you take your job of TT in this forum too seriously :lol:



Hi,

You only know a minimal of the civilian's background---only as much that is shared. I had a life before being a TT on this board.

An average pakistani millitary officer is not as qualified a person as you might be made to believe----even the genaral staff is vey poorly informed, with very poor knowledge and assessment of world affairs and millitary issues.

It is nothing personal----we all woprship our heores---but then we find out that they are not upto par.
 
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I seriously dough this . I percieve that US has some kind of Authority over International ARMS DEALS . The US does have the capability and the influence to force the french to send their troops to Iraq & Afghanistan .


Hi,

French don't take orders from the the u s---even though when we had sanctions in the 90's on the F 16's----the mirage etc was always available to us in any form and shape---it was only their equipment that the americans wanted to put the sanctions on---they cared less who sold what to pakistan---we weer free to buy eqyuipment from france.

U S and france have other personal issues---france was against attacking iraq---they at least had the bllz to stand upto the u s when all the europe was kowtowing to american forced agenda---.

Plus france didnot want america to do what france did to america in vietnam---america could do them the favour in return in afghanistan---. French involvement is not very much just by looking at their size and muscle----it is just a token presence.

Pakistan is not like venezuela---there are differences on the level of sanctions---.
 
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An average pakistani millitary officer is not as qualified a person as you might be made to believe----even the genaral staff is vey poorly informed, with very poor knowledge and assessment of world affairs and millitary issues.
Sir, I used to think otherwise, but I cannot argue with you here. Generally, I would be all defensive and protective about the collective Army personnel, but I've noticed that not every Army officer is necessarily a master defence analyst. Sometimes, they'll say things that will just amaze you.

The French have a price. When the going gets tough, that price increases. They may not sanction us, but they're hardly "reliable allies" under difficult circumstances. As a USAF Colonel said, "Red Flag is for allied nations alongside whom we expect go to war. This includes the British, the Canadians, god forbid the French..." Just goes to show how trusted they are as a nation, even amongst their allies. In fact, one could argue that the French are much more reliable as foes than friends. At least you know to be on guard.
 
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Sir, I used to think otherwise, but I cannot argue with you here. Generally, I would be all defensive and protective about the collective Army personnel, but I've noticed that not every Army officer is necessarily a master defence analyst. Sometimes, they'll say things that will just amaze you.
Basically he is targeting almost every other PAK military officers be it army air force or navy that they are not well informed but in fact he claims to be better informed then average pak military officers. No point of arguing with him, he goes personal. The base of this argument is that my sources are military officers whom i have met in real life and talked to them but not credible sources according to him. Infact i have had enough experience to say that not all officers are good analysts and most of the officers that i have talked to knows what he is talking about and strangely some of their opinion are identical. For example. here in defence.pk or any forum we have seem to develop this Chinese bubble in ourself that we tend to believe that China provides us the best technology available but thats not the case. We have requested much more sophisticated systems from china and we get rejected and at the end we get dedicated export systems and i am telling you the words of two officers who are not related in anyway be it relationship or profession.
 
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Sir, I used to think otherwise, but I cannot argue with you here. Generally, I would be all defensive and protective about the collective Army personnel, but I've noticed that not every Army officer is necessarily a master defence analyst. Sometimes, they'll say things that will just amaze you.

Hi,

Thankyou.

Thirty plus years ago---if someone would have talked to me about my pak army officer---I would have tore the head off their shoulders and-----but then I learnt that they are just programmed to be the leader of soldiers---and they charge fearlesslty at the enemy when bullets are flying around and shells are bursting in the sky---without any fear of life and consequence---where, others like me will cower down in fear---they will be the men in action. No doubt some are smarter than others---but they are not programmed to be analysts---their world is a 'NARROW VISION' or a TUNNEL VISION world---they only see the world through a periscope---that is what their job is-----once they get smarter, they get out fo the millitary.

Paface---no doubt that the french have a price---but we also have a very unique relationship with the french---we have been the second largest users of mirage aircraft---who better to market the french mirage 2k or the Rafael to the rest of the world other than PAF---nobody could have done it any better than us. We get the augusta 90 from the french with the silent propulsion system---one of the most deadliest silent submarine system in the world---did they blink an eyelash to give us that system---no---did u s say anything---no. Similiarly the americans would not have been bothered if they had sold their rafaels and M2k 9's to us as well.

As a matter of fact---for the americans it would have been a load off their shoulders---they would have to care less if india started to come crying their way---america would have said---don't bother us---go bug the french---they sold the aircraft. We care less---our systems are of no threat to you. Go scr-ew yourself---.

In order for america to force france in not selling us the equipment---pak had to do something totally extraordinary and out of this world---and pak is not going to do any of those things at all---and american congressmen and senators won't call upon the french---simple stupid logic works more often than tedious erronous misgivings.


Most of the chinese frontline system is the one they are still integrating---the chinese process of putting a system in active service is different than that of europe and america---chinese system gets certified on the job---secondly---they have massive requirement to fulfill their own needs on multiple fronts---next---all the top notch systems are for that countries use only---just like the u s and britain---there is a fear of getting the system into the enemies hands---thirdly the cost factor---china has to finance the sale to pakistan at special rates---and that also based on the fact that pak may not take eventual delivery of the system due to lack of funds and chiona may end up using that equipment as happened with the naval ships---.

China also knows that pak goes everywhere else to buy their equipment---when they don't get what they want---they comeback and send their wish list to china---now if this was your personal relationship with a friend who was less fortunate than you---and you were china and your friend was pakistan---what would most of you do---some of you might give that friend a boot.
 
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Chinese Chopper Hunts Subs
October 5, 2009: China has delivered six of its Z-9 helicopters, equipped for anti-submarine operations, to Pakistan. This means the choppers are fitted with radar, dipping sonar and lightweight torpedoes. This model (the Z-9EC) can probably also carry the new air launched anti-ship missile, the TL-10, that China introduced last year, specifically for its Z-9 naval helicopter.

The missile was apparently developed in cooperation with Iran (which calls it the Kosar). The TL-10 is a 240 pound missile, with a 65 pound warhead. It has a range of about 18 kilometers. The TL-10 has been in use for a few years, and the latest version, the TL-10C is believed to have a fire and forget guidance system (based on onboard radar). The TL-10 can be lethal for smaller (under 500 tons) ships, but can do a lot of damage to larger ships.

The Z-9 is a license built version of the French AS 365N Dauphin. It's a four ton helicopter with a two ton payload. China has built over 200 of the Z-9s and many have been armed (with twin 23mm cannon, torpedoes, anti-tank missiles and air-to-air missiles.) The Z-9D, armed with four TL-10 missiles, while the Z-9EC simply has anti-submarine equipment installed instead.
 
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Thirty plus years ago---if someone would have talked to me about my pak army officer---I would have tore the head off their shoulders and-----but then I learnt that they are just programmed to be the leader of soldiers---and they charge fearlesslty at the enemy when bullets are flying around and shells are bursting in the sky---without any fear of life and consequence---where, others like me will cower down in fear---they will be the men in action. No doubt some are smarter than others---but they are not programmed to be analysts---their world is a 'NARROW VISION' or a TUNNEL VISION world---they only see the world through a periscope---that is what their job is-----once they get smarter, they get out fo the millitary.

Paface---no doubt that the french have a price---but we also have a very unique relationship with the french---we have been the second largest users of mirage aircraft---who better to market the french mirage 2k or the Rafael to the rest of the world other than PAF---nobody could have done it any better than us. We get the augusta 90 from the french with the silent propulsion system---one of the most deadliest silent submarine system in the world---did they blink an eyelash to give us that system---no---did u s say anything---no. Similiarly the americans would not have been bothered if they had sold their rafaels and M2k 9's to us as well.

As a matter of fact---for the americans it would have been a load off their shoulders---they would have to care less if india started to come crying their way---america would have said---don't bother us---go bug the french---they sold the aircraft. We care less---our systems are of no threat to you. Go scr-ew yourself---.

In order for america to force france in not selling us the equipment---pak had to do something totally extraordinary and out of this world---and pak is not going to do any of those things at all---and american congressmen and senators won't call upon the french---simple stupid logic works more often than tedious erronous misgivings.


Most of the chinese frontline system is the one they are still integrating---the chinese process of putting a system in active service is different than that of europe and america---chinese system gets certified on the job---secondly---they have massive requirement to fulfill their own needs on multiple fronts---next---all the top notch systems are for that countries use only---just like the u s and britain---there is a fear of getting the system into the enemies hands---thirdly the cost factor---china has to finance the sale to pakistan at special rates---and that also based on the fact that pak may not take eventual delivery of the system due to lack of funds and chiona may end up using that equipment as happened with the naval ships---.

China also knows that pak goes everywhere else to buy their equipment---when they don't get what they want---they comeback and send their wish list to china---now if this was your personal relationship with a friend who was less fortunate than you---and you were china and your friend was pakistan---what would most of you do---some of you might give that friend a boot.

You see thats the problem----you are not prepared to listen to any one---you have developed your own version of everything in your own world.... Now to win your argument--- you have downgraded and generalized all Pak military officers that their
their world is a 'NARROW VISION' or a TUNNEL VISION world
... does muradk x-man and xeric shed some lights?.. the problem is... you probably have never met any pakistan military officer in your life if not then in the past 10-20 years---- you have probably have not even gained access to PAK military sensitive information that you seem to harp about.. we can not sit back behind the computer and act like arms chair generals and pretend we know alot more then officers...
I am not saying that all officers are analysts but respective of their job they know alot better then average defence expert. for example.. Armor officer will know alot more about his field then those guys who read books and information from internet..... and their are alot of examples who join military with deep deep interest and their information with interests is widened due to connections.
The main core of this argument is that.... That the "PILOTS" that i have talked to have had serious reservation about Chinese equipment. One thing that they cleared from me that We only get export products and in some cases Pak does get Chinese dedicated domestic product which are either not that top secret any more or in some small cases we only get those equipment which are not top of the line. other then that we only get export products. The only reason for us to go to China is because lack of funds and they are very generous enough to lend us money or long term payment method. FC-20 may be one of the best Chinese fighter but by the time it comes out China will have enough top secret planes that they wont bother much for supplying those to us because J-10 will no longer be their top of the line weapon. 2015-2020 5th generation fighters will take up the role.
 
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once they get smarter, they get out fo the millitary.
Do they decide both items by them self?
1- They are getting smart
2- They should leave army

I have worked with one retired captain (Engr. core) in a private company. I never asked him how did he got out of army, but he was hell of of a leader.
Contrary to usual perception of charging at his staff he used to handle matters very logicaly and when it comes to dealin gwith people he was master of inspirational statements.
I use to be a very angry young man freshly graduated but i developed lot of respect for him and only now i can think that leadership was his profession.
 
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Hello Growler,

It is the pakistani perception that a millitary guy knows more about stuff than a civilian---it is so different here in the u s or the rest of the world.


You keep on stating about the inferior chinese product and I keep repeating that it is not superior---does that make any sense---but that is all we have----that is what we are going to war with----.

PAF had every oppurtunity to buy a high class weapons syetm---and M2k-5-9-----they bungled it up horribly----these sanctions that you saw in thelate 80's early 90's----I don't know if you were even born at that time---they were due to the screw ups of the PAF officers---it was these super star paf officers that you talk about who invested in the sanction prone aircraft----everybody in the world knew that sanctions on pak millitary procurement are coming---but they---the paf forced benazir to place an order and pay upfront for the 28 F 16-----when the sanctions hit----they hid their faces and blamed everyone else for their blunders----.

In the early 90's Benazir and zardari switched to Mirage 2k---every thing was done and ready---paf bungled that purchase as well---the screw up of the pAF are of an astronomical proportions----they have let pakistan down so many times---that it is absolutely shocking----.

In the 71 war---a pia fokker pilot looks down at theocean and sees a warship towing missile boats behind it---he radios in or when he lands informs the authorities---the ACM knows about it---does nothing---navy is crying for help----once the pak ships are hit by missiles and there is death and destruction and navy complain---A Rahim states---' IT HAPPENS GOOD OLE BOY ".

That as-s wh-ole should have been put in front of the firing squad---then the case of the antalantique----on who's watch it was flying onto the border----on paf's watch---that officer incharge should have been put on the line as well---the first day war fiasco in sept 65---paf was late in executing its plans---in 71 war the b 57 and an electronic warfare plane destroyed on tarmac because paf was not using them.

As a matter of fact Air Marshall Asghar Khan sends a message to hios counterpart in ndia before the war---if your air foprce doesnot attack---I will keep mine grounded----.

Growler---these air force jocks have someone fooled into believing what they are not.

Their failures have been of astronomical proportions---the statements that some of these generals make on the tv makes you either cringe or just shake your head in disbelief.

Live and learn---you need to look outside of the well----there is a whole differnt world---and that world has nobody from the paf giving it directives of how superior they are and how they will takwe out the enemy with impunity.
 
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Do they decide both items by them self?
1- They are getting smart
2- They should leave army

I have worked with one retired captain (Engr. core) in a private company. I never asked him how did he got out of army, but he was hell of of a leader.
Contrary to usual perception of charging at his staff he used to handle matters very logicaly and when it comes to dealin gwith people he was master of inspirational statements.
I use to be a very angry young man freshly graduated but i developed lot of respect for him and only now i can think that leadership was his profession.



Hi,

That is the quality of a leader---to have ten men do the job of ten men. You always get more bees with honey----what differes leaders from ordinary men---the leaders get the best out of their men and the men are happy to perform their duties. A happy employee is a productive employee.
 
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Hello Growler,

It is the pakistani perception that a millitary guy knows more about stuff than a civilian---it is so different here in the u s or the rest of the world.
This is Pakistan i am talking about. Not the US and A. But here in pakistan. Military personals know alot alot alot more then pakistani defence analysts.. this being said. i wont agree that pak officer general knowledge is better then defence analysts but one being a pilot will know alot more about what is PAF requirements where are the gap wholes the goods and bads about the air force but certainly wont know much about army life.. However in the US and A defence analysts have alot more access to military information then they could even think about in pakistan.
PAF had every oppurtunity to buy a high class weapons syetm---and M2k-5-9-----they bungled it up horribly----these sanctions that you saw in thelate 80's early 90's----I don't know if you were even born at that time---they were due to the screw ups of the PAF officers---it was these super star paf officers that you talk about who invested in the sanction prone aircraft----everybody in the world knew that sanctions on pak millitary procurement are coming---but they---the paf forced benazir to place an order and pay upfront for the 28 F 16-----when the sanctions hit----they hid their faces and blamed everyone else for their blunders----.
That as-s wh-ole should have been put in front of the firing squad---then the case of the antalantique----on who's watch it was flying onto the border----on paf's watch---that officer incharge should have been put on the line as well---the first day war fiasco in sept 65---paf was late in executing its plans---in 71 war the b 57 and an electronic warfare plane destroyed on tarmac because paf was not using them.
This is so not the example of an armchair general.
Growler---these air force jocks have someone fooled into believing what they are not.
And your point is that (hey dont believe or listen to those air force jockeys, their world is a 'NARROW VISION' or a TUNNEL VISION world) and the above mention story says it all?
Their failures have been of astronomical proportions---the statements that some of these generals make on the tv makes you either cringe or just shake your head in disbelief.
What does PAF past "supposingly" blunders have to do with the argument? You have such a bad "no i am right you are wrong" attitude problem. and in your own world you seem to generalize everything based on you own logic.
Live and learn---you need to look outside of the well----there is a whole differnt world---
Thats exactly what i was going to say to you sir.
 
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"According to the Xinhua News Agency (here), China has placed an order for 10 Ka-28 anti-submarine helicopters from the Kamov Design Bureau in Russian. First three have already rolled off the assembly line and under flight test. There are 9 Ka-28 in Chinese service and some are currently deployed to the Gulf of Aden with the PLAN anti-pirate task force and in the Arctic with the Chinese Polar Expedition.

At the same time, China has delivered half of the six locally made Z-9EC anti-submarine helicopters ordered by the Pakistan Navy. Geopolitics and price might have something to do with this odd arrangement "
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Thats exactly what i was going to say to you sir.

Hi,

That is why in one of my posts I asked you to share your background and tell us what you do----are you a 13 years old kid or a 30 years old professional---I wanted to learn from you---but then you had to share some of your background and experience why you say what you say---so I can say that this man has been around and knows what he is saying.

Here in the u s when a speaker comes to the podium and reads out a paper---before that he introduces himself and his background and the work he has done to set the stage for people to understand the validity of argument---once he places his argument---it is open to be bisected and disected---but the bottomline is that you have to be honest with yourself---who you are.

Your answers have only been---my uncle a major----a flt lt you talked to---two army majors you talked to---a sdrn ldr that you talked to---then you lied about being someone that you were not---at the end you got mad----and you are going to get mad again---.

I have lived out of the well for close to 30 years now and everyday is a new learning experience---with all the good and bad that there is---the u s of a is still a blessed place.
 
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Hi,

That is why in one of my posts I asked you to share your background and tell us what you do----
and what does that have to do with the debate? is it required by forum management? NO! so i kindly advice you to mind your own business.
are you a 13 years old kid or a 30 years old professional---
Does it really matter if i am 13 or 90 year old senior person? every one is entitled to their opinion be it a cars sales person or what ever.
I wanted to learn from you---but then you had to share some of your background and experience why you say what you say---so I can say that this man has been around and knows what he is saying.
Look... like i have said. you have not visited pakistan for the last 20 years, the only information you have access to is from internet and books only----- your credibility is as much as any of non military servicemen here in defence.pk--- unless you have special access to PAK military affairs then i will be happy to fallow your lead---- but you are forgetting something---- you are a cars sales person---- not a profesional defence expert in pak military affairs---- which gives you the tittle to bash Pak military serving personals, that they have a (tunnel version mentality) and they can not be analysts of the field that they are working for---- like i have said---- you take your defence.pk TT job way too seriously. :)
Here in the u s when a speaker comes to the podium and reads out a paper---before that he introduces himself and his background and the work he has done to set the stage for people to understand the validity of argument---once he places his argument---it is open to be bisected and disected---but the bottomline is that you have to be honest with yourself---who you are.
why do you keep repeating this irrelevant comments?
this forum is not of US of A--- Your validity of this argument is no way close to that of service mens in pak armed forces. and your profession has nothing got to do with pak military----
Your answers have only been---my uncle a major----a flt lt you talked to---two army majors you talked to---a sdrn ldr that you talked to---then you lied about being someone that you were not---at the end you got mad----and you are going to get mad again---.
:disagree: you have a serious issue.
I have lived out of the well for close to 30 years now and everyday is a new learning experience---with all the good and bad that there is---the u s of a is still a blessed place.
thanks for letting us know... :rolleyes:
 
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