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An Indian Tale Of Woe : A submarine race in the region

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September 6, 2012: India's effort to build the first six subs (French Scorpenes), under license, has been delayed several times, and the price has gone up to $5 billion ($834 million each). While this effort will leave India with thousands of workers and specialists experienced in building modern submarines, all that will be wasted because the defense procurement bureaucrats seem to have learned nothing. These officials already caused numerous delays, and cost overruns, during negotiations to build these diesel-electric submarines. The bureaucrats mismanaged this deal to the extent that it is now three years behind schedule. But it is even more behind schedule if you count the several years the Indian bureaucrats delayed it even getting started. The delays and mismanagement have so far increased the cost of the $4 billion project by 25 percent. The original plan was to have the first Indian built Scorpene delivered at the end of this year. But now, because of problems getting the construction facilities and skilled workmen ready, the first Scorpene won't be delivered until 2015, with one each year after that until all six are delivered. That schedule is subject to change, and probably will, for the worse.

All this ineffective urgency is in play because India's submarine fleet is dying of old age, and new boats are not going to arrive in time. It's not like this was a surprise, but the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy has long been noted as slow, sloppy and stubborn, especially in the face of demands that it speed up. The twisted tale of the tardy submarines is particularly painful.

The plan was to have a dozen new subs in service by the end of the decade. At present, there will be (with a bit of luck) six of them in service by then. The procurement bureaucracy is still seeking a supplier for the second six diesel-electric subs. This second six subs might begin arriving by the end of the decade. It's hard to say, although the defense procurement nabobs speak of "fast tracking" this project, but long-time observers of these officials are not expecting speed.

There's some urgency to all this, because this year, five of India's 16 diesel-electric subs (10 Kilo and two Foxtrot class Russian built boats and four German Type 209s) were to be retired (some are already semi-retired because of age and infirmity). Because of the Scorpene delays, the Type 209s are being kept in service (but not allowed out to sea much) for several more years. That leaves India with 14 subs. But in the next year or so several of the older Kilos will reach retirement age. Thus by the time the first Scorpene arrives in 2015, India will only have five or six working subs. India believes it needs at least 18 non-nuclear subs in service to deal with Pakistan and China.

India is also building and buying nuclear subs. India received a Russian Akula nuclear attack (SSN) sub earlier this year. This one is on lease with the option to buy. Indian SSNs and SSBNs (missile carrying boats) are under development, as they have been for decades.

After the bureaucrats and politicians dithered for nearly a decade, in 2005 India finally signed a deal to buy six French Scorpene class boats. The delays led to the French increasing prices on some key components, and India has had some problems in getting production going on their end. The first Scorpene was to be built in France, with the other five built in India. While some problems were expected (India has been doing license manufacturing of complex weapons for decades), the defense ministry procurement bureaucrats never ceased to amaze when it came to delaying work, or just getting in the way.

The Scorpenes are similar to the Agosta 90B subs (also French) that Pakistan recently bought. The first of the Agostas was built in France, but the other two were built in Pakistan. The Scorpenes purchase was seen as a response to the Pakistani Agostas. The Scorpene are a more recent design, the result of cooperation between French and Spanish sub builders. The Agosta is a 1,500 ton (surface displacement) diesel-electric sub with a 36 man crew and four 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes (with 20 torpedoes and/or anti-ship missiles carried.) The Scorpene is a little heavier (1,700 tons), has a smaller crew (32) and is a little faster. It has six 533mm torpedo tubes, and carries 18 torpedoes and/or missiles. Both models can be equipped with an AIP (air independent propulsion) system. This enables the sub to stay under longer, thus making the sub harder to find. AIP allows the sub to travel under water for more than a week, at low speed (5-10 kilometers an hour). The Pakistanis have an option to retrofit AIP in their current two Agostas.

While India was largely concerned with the Pakistani navy when the Scorpene contract was negotiated and signed, China is now seen as the primary adversary. The Chinese subs are not as effective as the Pakistani boats both because of less advanced technology, and less well trained crews. India could use their Scorpenes to confront any Chinese attempt to expand their naval presence into the Indian Ocean. Thus the delays and cost overruns with the Scorpenes are causing quite a lot of commotion in India. But at the rate India is going, it will be nearly a decade before all six of the Scorpenes are in service. At that point, India would have about a dozen subs (including nuclear powered models under construction). China will have over 60 boats, about 20 percent of them nuclear. China does have a lot for its warships to deal with off its coasts and in the Western Pacific, but it does retain the capability of putting more subs off the Indian coast than can the Indian Navy.
Submarines: An Indian Tale Of Woe
 
September 6, 2012: India's effort to build the first six subs (French Scorpenes), under license, has been delayed several times, and the price has gone up to $5 billion ($834 million each). While this effort will leave India with thousands of workers and specialists experienced in building modern submarines, all that will be wasted because the defense procurement bureaucrats seem to have learned nothing. These officials already caused numerous delays, and cost overruns, during negotiations to build these diesel-electric submarines. The bureaucrats mismanaged this deal to the extent that it is now three years behind schedule. But it is even more behind schedule if you count the several years the Indian bureaucrats delayed it even getting started. The delays and mismanagement have so far increased the cost of the $4 billion project by 25 percent. The original plan was to have the first Indian built Scorpene delivered at the end of this year. But now, because of problems getting the construction facilities and skilled workmen ready, the first Scorpene won't be delivered until 2015, with one each year after that until all six are delivered. That schedule is subject to change, and probably will, for the worse.

All this ineffective urgency is in play because India's submarine fleet is dying of old age, and new boats are not going to arrive in time. It's not like this was a surprise, but the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy has long been noted as slow, sloppy and stubborn, especially in the face of demands that it speed up. The twisted tale of the tardy submarines is particularly painful.

The plan was to have a dozen new subs in service by the end of the decade. At present, there will be (with a bit of luck) six of them in service by then. The procurement bureaucracy is still seeking a supplier for the second six diesel-electric subs. This second six subs might begin arriving by the end of the decade. It's hard to say, although the defense procurement nabobs speak of "fast tracking" this project, but long-time observers of these officials are not expecting speed.

There's some urgency to all this, because this year, five of India's 16 diesel-electric subs (10 Kilo and two Foxtrot class Russian built boats and four German Type 209s) were to be retired (some are already semi-retired because of age and infirmity). Because of the Scorpene delays, the Type 209s are being kept in service (but not allowed out to sea much) for several more years. That leaves India with 14 subs. But in the next year or so several of the older Kilos will reach retirement age. Thus by the time the first Scorpene arrives in 2015, India will only have five or six working subs. India believes it needs at least 18 non-nuclear subs in service to deal with Pakistan and China.

India is also building and buying nuclear subs. India received a Russian Akula nuclear attack (SSN) sub earlier this year. This one is on lease with the option to buy. Indian SSNs and SSBNs (missile carrying boats) are under development, as they have been for decades.

After the bureaucrats and politicians dithered for nearly a decade, in 2005 India finally signed a deal to buy six French Scorpene class boats. The delays led to the French increasing prices on some key components, and India has had some problems in getting production going on their end. The first Scorpene was to be built in France, with the other five built in India. While some problems were expected (India has been doing license manufacturing of complex weapons for decades), the defense ministry procurement bureaucrats never ceased to amaze when it came to delaying work, or just getting in the way.

The Scorpenes are similar to the Agosta 90B subs (also French) that Pakistan recently bought. The first of the Agostas was built in France, but the other two were built in Pakistan. The Scorpenes purchase was seen as a response to the Pakistani Agostas. The Scorpene are a more recent design, the result of cooperation between French and Spanish sub builders. The Agosta is a 1,500 ton (surface displacement) diesel-electric sub with a 36 man crew and four 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes (with 20 torpedoes and/or anti-ship missiles carried.) The Scorpene is a little heavier (1,700 tons), has a smaller crew (32) and is a little faster. It has six 533mm torpedo tubes, and carries 18 torpedoes and/or missiles. Both models can be equipped with an AIP (air independent propulsion) system. This enables the sub to stay under longer, thus making the sub harder to find. AIP allows the sub to travel under water for more than a week, at low speed (5-10 kilometers an hour). The Pakistanis have an option to retrofit AIP in their current two Agostas.

While India was largely concerned with the Pakistani navy when the Scorpene contract was negotiated and signed, China is now seen as the primary adversary. The Chinese subs are not as effective as the Pakistani boats both because of less advanced technology, and less well trained crews. India could use their Scorpenes to confront any Chinese attempt to expand their naval presence into the Indian Ocean. Thus the delays and cost overruns with the Scorpenes are causing quite a lot of commotion in India. But at the rate India is going, it will be nearly a decade before all six of the Scorpenes are in service. At that point, India would have about a dozen subs (including nuclear powered models under construction). China will have over 60 boats, about 20 percent of them nuclear. China does have a lot for its warships to deal with off its coasts and in the Western Pacific, but it does retain the capability of putting more subs off the Indian coast than can the Indian Navy.
Submarines: An Indian Tale Of Woe


FACTUALLY Incorrect and Hyperbola Bullshit. Poor Journalism

1. Scorpene will be delivered starting 2015 one every 6 months, all 6 will be delivered in 3 years.
2. Scorpene and Agosta 90 Both are different Generations of Submarines.
3. Indian did not Buy Scorpene because PN bought Agosta.
4. 3 Follow on subs will be built in addition to 6 already ordered.



Agosta 90B submarines are equipped with a SUBTICS fully integrated combat system. Agosta 90B submarine is fitted with four bow 533mm torpedo tubes and has the capacity to carry a mixed load of up to 16 torpedoes and missiles. The submarine can be equipped with the ECAN F17 mod 2 torpedo, which is a wire-guided torpedo with active and passive homing to a range of 20km. The torpedo delivers a 250kg warhead to a depth of 600m. Agosta 90B is equipped with the torpedo tube launched MBDA (formerly EADS Aerospatiale) Exocet SM39 missile. Target range and bearing data is downloaded into the Exocet's computer.
The missile approaches the target area in sea-skimming mode using inertial navigation and then active radar homing. The missile travels at speeds over Mach 0.9, and has a range of 50km. Exocet has a 165kg high-explosive shaped-charge warhead.
Thales DR-3000U radar warning receiver, operating in D to K bands.
The system uses a masthead antenna array with omnidirectional and monopulse directional antennae and a separate periscope warning antenna
The submarine is fitted with a Thales Underwater Systems (formerly Thomson Marconi Sonar) TSM 223 sonar suite, which includes bow-mounted sonar and towed sonar arrays, SAGEM periscopes and navigation system and Thales I-band navigation radar. The diesel-electric system consists of two SEMT-Pielstick 16 PA4 V 185 VG diesels providing 3,600hp and a 2,200kW electric motor driving a single propeller. MESMA air-independent propulsion system, being fitted to the Agosta 90B submarines for Pakistan, allows the submarine to remain submerged three times longer.
The MESMA system consists essentially of a turbine receiving high-pressure steam from a combustion chamber, burning a gaseous mixture of ethanol and liquid oxygen. The Agosta 90B's performance remains the same in all other respects, except that the length increases from 67m to 76m and submerged displacement from 1,760t to 2,050t

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agosta/


Scorpene submarines
Scorpene is equipped with six bow-located 21in torpedo tubes providing salvo launch capability. Positive discharge launching is by an air turbine pump. The submarine's weapons include anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-surface missiles.
18 torpedoes and missiles or 30 mines can be carried by the Scorpene attack submarine. The handling and loading of weapons is automated.
SUBTICS combat management system, with up to six multifunction common consoles and a centrally situated tactical table, is collocated with the platform-control facilities.The combat management system is composed of a command and tactical data handling system, a weapon control system and an integrated suite of acoustic sensors with an interface to a set of air surface detection sensors and to the integrated navigation system. The system can also download data from external sources.The integrated navigation system combines data from global positioning systems, the log, depth measurement and the ship's trim / list monitoring system. The Scorpene monitors the environment including seawater density and temperature and the submarine's own noise signature.
The sonar suite includes a long-range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array.
All submarine handling operations are carried out from the control room. The vessel features a high level of automation and surveillance, with automatic control mode of rudders and propulsion, continuous monitoring of the propulsion systems and platform installations, centralised and continuous surveillance of all potential hazards (leaks, fires, presence of gases) and the status of the installations that affect the safety while submerged.
The submarine incorporates a high level of system redundancy to achieve an average 240 days at sea a year for each submarine. The maximum diving depth is 300m, giving the commander more tactical freedom than previously available on conventional submarines. There is no limit to the duration of dives at a maximum depth, other than the power systems and crew limitations. The planning and design of the Scorpene was directed towards achieving an extremely quiet vessel with a great detection capability and offensive power.
The forms of the hull, the sail and the appendages have been specifically designed to produce minimum hydrodynamic noise. The various items of equipment are mounted on elastic supports, which are in turn mounted on uncoupled blocks and suspended platforms. The isolation also provides better shock protection to the equipment.

Scorpene has two diesel generation sets providing 1,250kW of power. At the top of the hull immediately above the diesel generator sets is a Dutch Breach machinery shipping hatch. The submarine has an elastically supported 2,900kW electronic engine.
There are two variants of Scorpene, the CM-2000 with the conventional propulsion system and the AM-2000 equipped with air independent propulsion. The AM-2000 is capable of remaining submerged on underwater patrol for three times longer than the CM-2000.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/
 
Time for Pakistan to buy few of type 214 German Submarines. That should help to equalize balance of power in the sea.
 
A Tale of Indian woe under forum Pakistan Navy ??

Dekh toh liya karo..
 
September 6, 2012: India's effort to build the first six subs (French Scorpenes), under license, has been delayed several times, and the price has gone up to $5 billion ($834 million each). While this effort will leave India with thousands of workers and specialists experienced in building modern submarines, all that will be wasted because the defense procurement bureaucrats seem to have learned nothing. These officials already caused numerous delays, and cost overruns, during negotiations to build these diesel-electric submarines. The bureaucrats mismanaged this deal to the extent that it is now three years behind schedule. But it is even more behind schedule if you count the several years the Indian bureaucrats delayed it even getting started. The delays and mismanagement have so far increased the cost of the $4 billion project by 25 percent. The original plan was to have the first Indian built Scorpene delivered at the end of this year. But now, because of problems getting the construction facilities and skilled workmen ready, the first Scorpene won't be delivered until 2015, with one each year after that until all six are delivered. That schedule is subject to change, and probably will, for the worse.

All this ineffective urgency is in play because India's submarine fleet is dying of old age, and new boats are not going to arrive in time. It's not like this was a surprise, but the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy has long been noted as slow, sloppy and stubborn, especially in the face of demands that it speed up. The twisted tale of the tardy submarines is particularly painful.

The plan was to have a dozen new subs in service by the end of the decade. At present, there will be (with a bit of luck) six of them in service by then. The procurement bureaucracy is still seeking a supplier for the second six diesel-electric subs. This second six subs might begin arriving by the end of the decade. It's hard to say, although the defense procurement nabobs speak of "fast tracking" this project, but long-time observers of these officials are not expecting speed.

There's some urgency to all this, because this year, five of India's 16 diesel-electric subs (10 Kilo and two Foxtrot class Russian built boats and four German Type 209s) were to be retired (some are already semi-retired because of age and infirmity). Because of the Scorpene delays, the Type 209s are being kept in service (but not allowed out to sea much) for several more years. That leaves India with 14 subs. But in the next year or so several of the older Kilos will reach retirement age. Thus by the time the first Scorpene arrives in 2015, India will only have five or six working subs. India believes it needs at least 18 non-nuclear subs in service to deal with Pakistan and China.

India is also building and buying nuclear subs. India received a Russian Akula nuclear attack (SSN) sub earlier this year. This one is on lease with the option to buy. Indian SSNs and SSBNs (missile carrying boats) are under development, as they have been for decades.

After the bureaucrats and politicians dithered for nearly a decade, in 2005 India finally signed a deal to buy six French Scorpene class boats. The delays led to the French increasing prices on some key components, and India has had some problems in getting production going on their end. The first Scorpene was to be built in France, with the other five built in India. While some problems were expected (India has been doing license manufacturing of complex weapons for decades), the defense ministry procurement bureaucrats never ceased to amaze when it came to delaying work, or just getting in the way.

The Scorpenes are similar to the Agosta 90B subs (also French) that Pakistan recently bought. The first of the Agostas was built in France, but the other two were built in Pakistan. The Scorpenes purchase was seen as a response to the Pakistani Agostas. The Scorpene are a more recent design, the result of cooperation between French and Spanish sub builders. The Agosta is a 1,500 ton (surface displacement) diesel-electric sub with a 36 man crew and four 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes (with 20 torpedoes and/or anti-ship missiles carried.) The Scorpene is a little heavier (1,700 tons), has a smaller crew (32) and is a little faster. It has six 533mm torpedo tubes, and carries 18 torpedoes and/or missiles. Both models can be equipped with an AIP (air independent propulsion) system. This enables the sub to stay under longer, thus making the sub harder to find. AIP allows the sub to travel under water for more than a week, at low speed (5-10 kilometers an hour). The Pakistanis have an option to retrofit AIP in their current two Agostas.

While India was largely concerned with the Pakistani navy when the Scorpene contract was negotiated and signed, China is now seen as the primary adversary. The Chinese subs are not as effective as the Pakistani boats both because of less advanced technology, and less well trained crews. India could use their Scorpenes to confront any Chinese attempt to expand their naval presence into the Indian Ocean. Thus the delays and cost overruns with the Scorpenes are causing quite a lot of commotion in India. But at the rate India is going, it will be nearly a decade before all six of the Scorpenes are in service. At that point, India would have about a dozen subs (including nuclear powered models under construction). China will have over 60 boats, about 20 percent of them nuclear. China does have a lot for its warships to deal with off its coasts and in the Western Pacific, but it does retain the capability of putting more subs off the Indian coast than can the Indian Navy.
Submarines: An Indian Tale Of Woe

I think instead of blaming INDIANs we should have looked at our own mistakes like.

Upgradation of Agosta-70s in 1999 so that they will remain in service till 2015 and then being replaced by U-214Ps.

PN should have produced 7 Agosta-90Bs like after the induction of the first one in 1999 they should have assembled second and third one at home till 2001-2 after that produced the fourth and fifth one with AIP till 2003-4 and at last sixth and seventh one with AIP till 2005-6.

More over if we had joined the Germans in 2000 for a JV on U-212 then we can produce another 7 of U-212Ps in Pakistan starting from 2006 and continuing to produce till 2012 after that another 7 U-214 till 2020.

In this way we could have 21 subs till 2022.
 
u212_10.jpg

U212_A_U31_8.jpg

6964037038_4a1ce46b38_b.jpg

SHIP_SSK_U-214_lg.jpg

sr=1

papanikolistrials24ty.jpg
 
Time for Pakistan to buy few of type 214 German Submarines. That should help to equalize balance of power in the sea.

i don't think Pakistan would go for U boats they rather seem more interested in Chinese Subs:coffee:
Anyways i think by the time Pakistan would decide what it wants India would be finalizing $11Billion P 75I for 6 Subs n then again maintaining its edge over IOR...:wave:
 
i don't think Pakistan would go for U boats they rather seem more interested in Chinese Subs:coffee:
Anyways i think by the time Pakistan would decide what it wants India would be finalizing $11Billion P 75I for 6 Subs n then again maintaining its edge over IOR...:wave:

Much better to do a JV with Germans along with Saudis, UAE, Jordan and Oman to join in for the development of new SSKs and produce 7 of the first block in first 5 years to add capability.

And stop the DRAMA of NO MONEY, try to concentrate on JVs, R&D, 3rd Shipyard at KE&SWs, GAWADAR NAVAL BASE with 3 Mega Shipyards and ORMARA as a tactical Naval Base with some great facility.
 
Much better to do a JV with Germans along with Saudis, UAE, Jordan and Oman to join in for the development of new SSKs and produce 7 of the first block in first 5 years to add capability.

And stop the DRAMA of NO MONEY, try to concentrate on JVs, R&D, 3rd Shipyard at KE&SWs, GAWADAR NAVAL BASE with 3 Mega Shipyards and ORMARA as a tactical Naval Base with some great facility.

Plz don't mind bt i think u r getting a bit carried away here

1. Why the Germans would go for JV with Pak when u don't have much to contribute neither technically nor monetarily

2. n why would they share their technology for development of a new product with a bunch of Arab countries n Pak n make them self dependent when there is already a good demand of their existing products among the Arab states

2. Even if all things went through how do u expect to PN to purchase 7 new German Subs with their budgetary constraints n a stagnent economy engulfed in WOT

4. Does Pakistan has adequate infrastructure to produce 7 subs within 5 years:what:
 
Plz don't mind bt i think u r getting a bit carried away here

1. Why the Germans would go for JV with Pak when u don't have much to contribute neither technically nor monetarily

2. n why would they share their technology for development of a new product with a bunch of Arab countries n Pak n make them self dependent when there is already a good demand of their existing products among the Arab states

2. Even if all things went through how do u expect to PN to purchase 7 new German Subs with their budgetary constraints n a stagnent economy engulfed in WOT

4. Does Pakistan has adequate infrastructure to produce 7 subs within 5 years:what:

That's your mind. Actually Germans wants to partner with Pakistan if Pakistan along with its friends have tried it. It will make us know more about the subs, and we can utilize our two shipyards at once to take out 2 subs in 1.5 years of time which we have gained through Agosta-90Bs.
 
That's your mind. Actually Germans wants to partner with Pakistan if Pakistan along with its friends have tried it. It will make us know more about the subs, and we can utilize our two shipyards at once to take out 2 subs in 1.5 years of time which we have gained through Agosta-90Bs.

Dude it took Pakistan 10 yrs to build 1 Agosta 90B subs ie contract signed in 1996 , Karachi Shipyard Delivered first and only Sub in 2007
first 2 subs came from france in 1999, 2001
 
Dude it took Pakistan 10 yrs to build 1 Agosta 90B subs ie contract signed in 1996 , Karachi Shipyard Delivered first and only Sub in 2007
first 2 subs came from france in 1999, 2001

It has taken India 30 years to attempt building a nuclear sub and that too with continued Russian support and assistance and what did it produce - A Floating Khokha.

At the end, Russia se ek nuke sub karaye pe le li.
 
It has taken India 30 years to attempt building a nuclear sub and that too with continued Russian support and assistance and what did it produce - A Floating Khokha.

At the end, Russia se ek nuke sub karaye pe le li.

it takes time to design your own nuclear submarine , and yeah we have completed the first one and its currently undergoing sea trials , with 5 more to follow .

But i still bet Kayani pees a little , everytime he thinks about that khokha
 
That's your mind. Actually Germans wants to partner with Pakistan if Pakistan along with its friends have tried it. It will make us know more about the subs, and we can utilize our two shipyards at once to take out 2 subs in 1.5 years of time which we have gained through Agosta-90Bs.
using 2 shipyards simultaneously is a good option but that would require modular shipping technology but i highly doubt that pakistani shipyards have that capability

But the most important question still remains the same ''where is the money???'' to build 7 subs

Even India has floated a new tender for 6 new AIP subs for $11 billion of which U 214 is a contender

The brazilians also ordered 4 scropions subs for $9.9 billion in 2009

So u can very well imagine how much it'll gonna take for PN to pay for 7 if any day it plans to order them....:wave:
 
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