Aman Ka Tamasha

[indushek]

No Pakistani will disagree with this statement. But Pakistanis who are well versed and interact with the military almost daily as part of their lives question if army is indeed doing their job or not.

The highlighted part, I can't disagree with. People on ground know it better.

However, as an outside observer I still don't feel they have done anything to rock the boat. Sure there is noise from the dethroned Mr Khan, and supposed treachery by outgoing General etc. I however don't see any change in their policies, and Mr Munir has managed to stop any official default of the state despite people going gung ho about it till date.

Sure the country is in heavy problems, but few years of calm can get it back on feet. The rest all is the usual noise, we people in subcontinent always love to indulge in, beating chests even before anything has happened (we are too emotional).

 

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That is why with 40% of the electoral vote, the BJP has captured an enormous number of seats. Many of its seats were won by margins of less than a 1,000 votes.

Sir a democracy functions with majority. UK ceded to Brexit with only some points percentage difference.

BJP despite 40% electoral vote is undisputedly the winner and legitimate candidate to hold the position in power when compared to those who competed against them. BJP won among it's peers and that is what democracy is.

So, it is the best party present that represents the will of Indian people.

Mr Munir has managed to stop any official default

Is that the job of of COAS of any country? I think it is outside the mandate of military to deal with financial matters of a state in this manner

However, as an outside observer I still don't feel they have done anything to rock the boat.

I wonder if an outside observer be in a better position or those who are more familiar with them can state ground realities.
.

 

[villageidiot]

Circumstances. We never know perhaps he would again have a change of heart later in life if he didn't pass right after partition.

Sir, what's this about? @Joe Shearer sb. alluded to this too, in clearer terms.

How and when did Quaid-e-Azam had a change of heart w.r.t. the partition? A lot of stories are made about his end days. How reliable are the sources for this?

 

[ghazi52]

,.,.

Criticise Bilawal for his politics, not his weight​

The foreign minister's visit to India for the SCO was historic — why then were people more concerned with fat shaming him than anything else?

 

[Krptonite]

Call me a pessimist, but that example is a extreme one of existential nature for both parties. Cannot be considered an example of, possible cooperation.

Realistically speaking as of today, direct trade between us both will be heavily beneficial to us than Pakistan. This will lead to sore relations, on the business front too within short time,

In international polity nation states try to cooperate on convergences of interests. Currently, even if there are convergences between us they are stalled due to the prevalent socio political situation.

My example highlights that even in matters of bombing each other, we can come to an understanding so long as a strong enough impetus exists. Trade increases this impetus.

Your prediction about the short term effect might well be true but it does not take into account the developmental effect foreign investment brings in. Indian business investment in Pakistan would see a increase in capacity building.

Ultimately, it is not charity, business is in self interest, it would be up to the polity to set course a direction to best extract benefits. It would not be as one sided as you've presumed.

 

[villageidiot]

Right back at cha, your posts are surprisingly restrained when letting loose is the norm and not only that, but I've found them to be quite reasonable in your assessment and concise, a rare delight.

It's not easy focusing the attention in a single direction, despite the efforts of so many dedicated members to do so otherwise

Thank you. It's just so tiring to be negative all the time. And there's already enough negativity in real life. This is supposed to be a temporary escape from all that. Why make this toxic as well.

Also, I'll be honest, all these compliments from indian members on this and another thread a while back, and now esp from Joe sb. are making me under pressure to behave from now on.

I do have some fun at certain deserving indian members' expense ( only those who ask for it, like bhakts ) sometimes, although nothing overtly racist and also nothing regarding hinduism or hindu deities, which are often targeted (hindutva is fair game tho), but you never know when someone else might is offended. So, apologies in advance if that ever happens.

 

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Sir, what's this about? @Joe Shearer sb. alluded to this too, in clearer terms.

How and when did Quaid-e-Azam had a change of heart w.r.t. the partition? A lot of stories are made about his end days. How reliable are the sources for this?

Jinnah at first never advocated for a separate homeland for Muslims. Later, he himself lead for the cause of Pakistan. Whatever Jinnah did was for the betterment of the people living in the sub-continent at his time. We can never know if there was in relative recent past or might be in the future a scenario where uniting would be the better option for the people of sub-continent. But without the principles and stature of Jinnah like figure, it is impossible now.

So, I guess it is better to focus on peaceful co-existence as separate nations.

 

[villageidiot]

Jinnah at first never advocated for a separate homeland for Muslims. Later, he himself lead for the cause of Pakistan. Whatever Jinnah did was for the betterment of the people living in the sub-continent at his time. We can never know if there was in relative recent past or might be in the future a scenario where uniting would be the better option for the people of sub-continent. But without the principles and stature of Jinnah like figure, it is impossible now.

So, I guess it is better to focus on peaceful co-existence as separate nations.

Yes, I know that much. "Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity".

But, Joe sb put it in a matter of fact way. He was talking about post-independence. That Quaid regretted partition, post independence. Since I felt your post implied the same, made me wonder if it's a widespread notion

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir a democracy functions with majority. UK ceded to Brexit with only some points percentage difference.

BJP despite 40% electoral vote is undisputedly the winner and legitimate candidate to hold the position in power when compared to those who competed against them. BJP won among it's peers and that is what democracy is.

So, it is the best party present that represents the will of Indian people.

That is a different discussion.

It has nothing to do with our present discussion, and I will not torture you with all the reservations that I have about this so-called majority government, that is nothing of the sort at all. Not now.

Those delicious sessions on the rack and Catherine wheels I will reserve for some future occasion, when I am feeling particularly liverish.

In brief, however, just to place my schiltrons in array, I think that the BJP government's 40% vote is a hoax and an illusion, and it is an electoral accident that happened, and that was seized by entities that had worked for decades, from 1920 to 2014, to achieve those results. That is where I intend to pick up the thread if I live long enough to take it up.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Jinnah at first never advocated for a separate homeland for Muslims. Later, he himself lead for the cause of Pakistan. Whatever Jinnah did was for the betterment of the people living in the sub-continent at his time. We can never know if there was in relative recent past or might be in the future a scenario where uniting would be the better option for the people of sub-continent. But without the principles and stature of Jinnah like figure, it is impossible now.

So, I guess it is better to focus on peaceful co-existence as separate nations.

Please don't get me wrong.

I did not argue against partition in the circumstances that Jinnah found himself, nor did I wish people to think that he entered into the matter with reluctance; being the forceful and successful professional advocate that he was, he had foreseen a fork in the path, and when the moment came, and he found he was being compelled to go down the fork that he did not wish to take, he took recourse to the path that had always (in the Jalal thesis) been held in reserve, as an ultimate position.

What I did say was that for someone who argued from first principles as Jinnah did, rather than from administrative experience, he took the right decision according to the methodology that had worked so well for him in court, but found that after the matter had been decided as he wished, the implementation was rotten - and through no fault of his, except that - I say this with the greatest and most tentative spirit - nothing had prepared him for the frightful developments that ensued. It is, on the other hand, differently from my attempts at understanding the mental path he took, on record that he regretted the way things had taken place, and expressed unhappiness over the entire matter.

At a later date, I shall fish out whatever I can lay my hands on, and put it out for you, and others interested, to see.

One thing: when 240 million people have decided - looking at today - to stay together as a nation, and soldier on through, there is no need for any further justification, or reason, or legality. It should be good enough for any reasonable person. It is good enough for me. I emphatically do not belong to those who wish to see partition unravelled - wish, mind you, and wish in a thoroughly unrealistic manner.

But, Joe sb put it in a matter of fact way. He was talking about post-independence. That Quaid regretted partition, post independence. Since I felt your post implied the same, made me wonder if it's a widespread notion

Yes, I said that, based on historical evidence, with no value placed on either side. It is not my opinion, nor is it my wish, that that evidence should point us at unravelling partition. Such a thing is a ridiculous impossibility.

 

[Joe Shearer]

it's a widespread notion

It is far from being a widespread notion, for these two reasons.

First, in Pakistan, there is so much reverence for Jinnah that except for a small handful of people, nobody knows what he actually said or did. I can think of four people who might have close to an encyclopaedic knowledge of the great man, and none of them will ever be welcomed on PDF.

Second, in India, it is so easy to slide into a blind criticism of Jinnah that very, very few people are knowledgeable about his words and deeds.

There are exceptions. During an animated discussion on these issues with a well-known and very well respected intellectual named Mohan Guruswamy, I found to my shock that the other person involved, Professor Faizan Mustafa, knew at least as much as I did, and given my failing memory, probably retained much more. But then the professor is vastly above my stature, and I should have anticipated it. Mohan was, of course, delighted, and leaned back and enjoyed himself thoroughly.

 

[indushek]

Is that the job of of COAS of any country? I think it is outside the mandate of military to deal with financial matters of a state in this manner

I wonder if an outside observer be in a better position or those who are more familiar with them can state ground realities.
.

For a Democracy it isn't, but this is the system adopted by Pakistan so far. I am not going make any judgement on the system, as it's not my place to do it.

However you can't disagree that, these questions are coming up only now? As long as things were more or less good, people went with it. Why rock the apple cart so to speak, but now since the country is in problems all these questions are coming up. Isn't it the institution being ditched, when they are in trouble in a way? I know how this argument of mine will sound especially here on PDF, given the current atmosphere.

Standing in their shoes for one moment, it's a catch 22 for them.

Eight out of ten times they aren't in better position than insiders, but one or two times they could be.

 

[indushek]

In international polity nation states try to cooperate on convergences of interests. Currently, even if there are convergences between us they are stalled due to the prevalent socio political situation.

My example highlights that even in matters of bombing each other, we can come to an understanding so long as a strong enough impetus exists. Trade increases this impetus.

Your prediction about the short term effect might well be true but it does not take into account the developmental effect foreign investment brings in. Indian business investment in Pakistan would see a increase in capacity building.

Ultimately, it is not charity, business is in self interest, it would be up to the polity to set course a direction to best extract benefits. It would not be as one sided as you've presumed.

Well am happy to see optimism that you espouse, it's good feeling over all and wholesome.

Totally agree about the bolded part in particular, and on both counts you mentioned. Business can never be charity, and it's the polity who need to the set the direction.

My presumption of trade being one sided, is not entirely unfounded. Here is a article showing the amount of trade through UAE, our exports vs imports vis a vis Pakistan will show you the clear picture.

https://www.deccanherald.com/opinio...ae-deepen-broad-based-engagement-1086950.html

 

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For a Democracy it isn't, but this is the system adopted by Pakistan so far. I am not going make any judgement on the system, as it's not my place to do it.

However you can't disagree that, these questions are coming up only now? As long as things were more or less good, people went with it. Why rock the apple cart so to speak, but now since the country is in problems all these questions are coming up. Isn't it the institution being ditched, when they are in trouble in a way? I know how this argument of mine will sound especially here on PDF, given the current atmosphere.

Standing in their shoes for one moment, it's a catch 22 for them.

Eight out of ten times they aren't in better position than insiders, but one or two times they could be.

I never shied away in criticizing them long before current issues showed up.
The system is not adopted but forced upon us since inception and people always struggle against it. You have to make a judgement based upon the constitution of Pakistan, Sire.

Jinnah also reminded the armed forces that the military is the servant of us; the people and they do not make policies. People here are simply following their founder's footsteps and throughout the life of the nation, have been, sometimes not very actively, and sometimes, at the forefront just like today.

Is requesting our state institutions to focus on their mandated tasks too much to ask?

Anyways, let's get back to the topic. I have a habit of going to the sides from the subject at hand.

 

[indushek]

I never shied away in criticizing them long before current issues showed up.
The system is not adopted but forced upon us since inception and people always struggle against it. You have to make a judgement based upon the constitution of Pakistan, Sire.

Jinnah also reminded the armed forces that the military is the servant of us; the people and they do not make policies. People here are simply following their founder's footsteps and throughout the life of the nation, have been, sometimes not very actively, and sometimes, at the forefront just like today.

Is requesting our state institutions to focus on their mandated tasks too much to ask?

Anyways, let's get back to the topic. I have a habit of going to the sides from the subject at hand.

What you said is true in every possible way, but as you said we are digressing. That part of our discussion might need a separate thread.