Al-Zarrar Comparison with other tanks

[Mustapha]

Salaams,

Our AZ's are literally "new tanks" after the 54 modifications. However now when I look at our AZ's, they don't look very good as they used to be. Although it has 125 smoothbore gun (the only tank in its class to have one), it really isn't a match aganist the "modern tank". Infact I don't think it should be used by the Army anymore, simply saying it must be phased out. If the Army wants to keep them, then the FC should use it aganist the fanatics in FATA.
Even though we recieved the first batch of the modified one (the ones with the 54 upgrades) in 2004. But like afterall it is a decendent of the T-54/55 tanks... Maybe I don't know much about this tank, thats why I sound Pessimistic, but if...nevermind...

I think our A-Ks is quite modern and it is suited for its purpose. Besides that I think in a Couple of years we will get the A-K 2 made.

Maybe I might be totally wrong, but we are getting our A-Ks 2 and we have the T-80UD's from Ukraine. Perhaps we should purchase the plans of the T-84 Oplots. We bought their T-80UD's. Maybe we can learn something from Ukrainians; since for a time the Russians and the Ukrainians were the Biggest tank powers on Earth. Yes I think Purchasing their designs for their Modern tank Concept of the T-84 Oplots would be a good asset to our tank diversity. Still however I don't know much of the Al-Zarrar...maybe it can be useful...

 

[F.O.X]

Our AZ's are literally "new tanks" after the 54 modifications. However now when I look at our AZ's, they don't look very good as they used to be. Although it has 125 smoothbore gun (the only tank in its class to have one), it really isn't a match aganist the "modern tank". Infact I don't think it should be used by the Army anymore, simply saying it must be phased out. If the Army wants to keep them, then the FC should use it aganist the fanatics in FATA.

Sorry i disagree!
AZ were made to counter indian T72's & they are quite capable of doing so, they were not made to counter any modern tank like T90,M1A1, etc, they are light Tanks not heavy so we should see them who they are. & it is an upgrade of T59 not T54/55

I think our A-Ks is quite modern and it is suited for its purpose. Besides that I think in a Couple of years we will get the A-K 2 made.

Ak's is basically a heavier tank, with modifications. which was built to counter indian T90 & Arjun, so comparing AK with AZ is totally wrong, both are different tanks made for different purposes.

& AK-2 is a complete mystree we still dont know what is it.


Regards
Wilco

 

[fatman17]

AZs will be phased out once the AKs are inducted in large numbers. this would take a few years because we have at least 1200 T-59s in our inventory (if not more). out of this inventory AZs are about 300 only so this is a interim strategy to upgrade the T-59s.

 

[JK!]

What is going to happen to the T80s in Pakistani service?

Another Pakistani forum did mention a while back about a billion dollar Ukrainian arms deal so will we aquire anymore.

Plus any chance of the Black Eagle standard upgrade for any tank in Pakistani service.

 

[IceCold]

What is going to happen to the T80s in Pakistani service?

Another Pakistani forum did mention a while back about a billion dollar Ukrainian arms deal so will we aquire anymore.

Plus any chance of the Black Eagle standard upgrade for any tank in Pakistani service.

T80s are still in the pakistan inventory and does not require replacement anytime soon. The tanks that are being replaced are the type85, type69, T-63 & 60 and type 59. All of these tanks are replaced by either Al-khalid or Al-Zarrar, so i dont think so pakistan will procure anymore T-80s in future.
However pakistan did sign an arms deal with the Ukrainian but it was for the engines, the IL78 Midas for air to air refueling.

 

[SherwaniAK]

"Webby, Al-zarar can finish the job of Indian T-72's by closed eyes."

So such type of Nonsense is tolerated and my post is deleted? Huh!

We have seen such BS spouted in the name of PAttons. What was the result? The pattons wee supposed to be the best tanks around.


My reply was just a taunt to Wilco's psot.

 

[Keysersoze]

"Webby, Al-zarar can finish the job of Indian T-72's by closed eyes."

So such type of Nonsense is tolerated and my post is deleted? Huh!

We have seen such BS spouted in the name of PAttons. What was the result? The pattons wee supposed to be the best tanks around.


My reply was just a taunt to Wilco's psot.

Let me answer your post for you........

Over my time here I have seen a lot of posts along the line of skill can overcome deficiencies in equipment and that skill will overcome tech advantage.
Also the thing that annoys me most is the "our side will fight to the death and never surrender" crap that you spouted.


1)Skill is useful to be sure but the most skillful sniper in the world isn't going to hit a target at range with a blunderbuss. It's a poor excuse to use "skill" as a excuse for deficient equipment.
2)Ever been shot at or under fire? Ever seen your friends killed or maimed? My uncle fought in 65 as a tanker and I still remember him breaking down and crying (in public) when remembering it. Spare me your gung ho crap until you have seen or done these things and then tell me about how they want to fight to the death......either that or grow up........

 

[SherwaniAK]

Let me answer your post for you........

Over my time here I have seen a lot of posts along the line of skill can overcome deficiencies in equipment and that skill will overcome tech advantage.
Also the thing that annoys me most is the "our side will fight to the death and never surrender" crap that you spouted.

That was the taunt to Wilco. Please tell himto prove his statement or delete it.

Its general tendency of Pakistanis staying abroad to look down upon those staying back in the country as full of ignorance. You seem to be one of them.

 

[Keysersoze]

That was the taunt to Wilco. Please tell himto prove his statement or delete it.

Its general tendency of Pakistanis staying abroad to look down upon those staying back in the country as full of ignorance. You seem to be one of them.

Ah I see, now I am looking down upon because you are living in Pakistan? And it is not the lack of real world knowledge of your statement that annoys me? I must also look down upon webby because he lives in Pakistan too..........And Asim,Blain and many other very smart people who live in Pakistan....hell lets throw in most of my extended family who have lawyers and engineers in their midst.
Let me make something clear.......stupidity is universal and I dislike it no matter where it's source is........So stop making excuses to make yourself feel comfortable..

Want to know how the Al Zarrar can take down a T-72? I suggest you take a look at the main upgrades to the tank. Gun which can take 125mm (which can penetrate a t-72's armour easier) instead of 100 mm ammo. Applique and ERA armour to give the skillful crew a margin of error and allow the skillful crew to escape (and not have to fight to the death). A improved FCS which allows the skillful crew to hit what they are aiming at as well as spot it sooner.

Now i have proved what you claimed but never proved in your post......you also went on to claim that that it could take down the Arjun too. which amazes me please prove your statement now and prove that you are not just a blowhard.

 

[EagleEyes]

That was the taunt to Wilco. Please tell himto prove his statement or delete it.

Its general tendency of Pakistanis staying abroad to look down upon those staying back in the country as full of ignorance. You seem to be one of them.

Dude, i didn't catch your sarcasm, because we dont post sarcasm here (rules).

There is nothing wrong with the statement that T-72 can be taken down by Al-Zarrar. Unless, you can prove it, there is hardly need for any sarcasm.

 

[zraver]

Interesting question....One perhaps suited to experts such as Zraver. However I will throw in my two penneth.
To compare the tank with for example the T-72 would require WHICH model of the T-72 you are referring to for example there are so many of them

However if we look at the upgrades that are visible n the Al-Zarrar they seemed to have attempted to correct some of the weaknesses of the T-59/69 tanks.
They have upgraded the frontal armour with applique and ERA. The FCS and night vision systems have been upgraded.

A full list of the 54 upgrades would be useful if anyone has them.

Well obviously I prefer the 4 man crew so I give the AZ the edge in sustained operations and maintenance down time. 3-4 people work better than 2-3. This holds true in combat and pre-combat.

vs an un-upgraded T-72A I will take the AZ, I've always been fond of the T54/55/Type 59 chassis for a solid medium tank and with new technology and a new gun it has the edge, barely. Neither tank is very good by truly modern standards. The AZ has an updated armor package, updated FCS:assuming ballistic computer and multi-axis stabalisation, but no sign of a cross wind sensor or muzzle reference system to correct for thermal droop. An improved gun, anyone know if it is a Chinese design or Ukrainian licensed 2A46M? it also has what appears to be a much more robust frontal armor package plus ERA on the side. However it is underpowered, rough riding, and cramped (although roomier than a T-72) a legacy of a Chassis designed just after the end of WW2.

However the AZ will not be facing a T-72A but the Ajeya MK2 (T-72M1) and this tanks technology is equal to the AZ. It has an improved FCS, improved armor, thermal imaging, improved fire suppression, improved engine, and ERA. It also has better overall ballistic shaping and thicker base armor weight so the measurable differences (in a meeting engagement) are crew and armor weight. if both crews are fresh the Ajeya gets the nod because of better armor. If both crews have been traveling and fighting across rough terrain all day I will favor the AZ. In any fight where one side is defending and hull down, the defender gets the nod.

People need to remember that the AZ was never designed to give Pakistan an edge. It was designed to prevent Pakistan from falling further behind and perhaps re-reach nominal parity in tank forces.

 

[SherwaniAK]

Want to know how the Al Zarrar can take down a T-72? I suggest you take a look at the main upgrades to the tank. Gun which can take 125mm (which can penetrate a t-72's armour easier) instead of 100 mm ammo. Applique and ERA armour to give the skillful crew a margin of error and allow the skillful crew to escape (and not have to fight to the death). A improved FCS which allows the skillful crew to hit what they are aiming at as well as spot it sooner.

Using the word skillful and that two twice, you have created a scenario favourable to you and claim to have proved your statement.

Please clarify if your skillful crew will be keeping their eyes closed or open.

My point: Theres no Universal rule that can prove Weapon A will defeat Weapon B. The success of operation depends upon various factors. And not just technology.

Webby,

I am sorry and I can assure you it wont happen again from my side.

 

[PakSniper]

Using the word skillful and that two twice, you have created a scenario favourable to you and claim to have proved your statement.

Please clarify if your skillful crew will be keeping their eyes closed or open.

My point: Theres no Universal rule that can prove Weapon A will defeat Weapon B. The success of operation depends upon various factors. And not just technology.

Webby,

I am sorry and I can assure you it wont happen again from my side.

Besides, skills, I believe technology plays a very "BIG" role. Ex: The Summer War, Hezbullah was able to take our the Merkaza tanks with updated RPG (Anti-Tank) weapons, were as if they had an older RPG model they wouldn't have, then you come down to using tactics, how you can employ that weapon to gets most of it's benefit, with old and new, etc. Theirs more to it than that but I have no time to discuss it.

And yeah their are universal rules, if we sent an AZ to fight a M1A1, AZ will be turned to ashes., quality and technology is a major part of war, Ottomans wouldn't have taken Constantanople without advancement in Naval war fare, and other equipment which is considered pre-historic, with skills alone.

 

[Keysersoze]

Using the word skillful and that two twice, you have created a scenario favourable to you and claim to have proved your statement.

Please clarify if your skillful crew will be keeping their eyes closed or open.

My point: Theres no Universal rule that can prove Weapon A will defeat Weapon B. The success of operation depends upon various factors. And not just technology.

Webby,

I am sorry and I can assure you it wont happen again from my side.

al zarar can kill t 90 and arjinany time. The skill lies with the crew.
our jawans and officers will fight till death b ut never surrender
That is your statement........

You don't seem to be particularly bright as first you make a ludicrous statement then claim I stacking the deck in my favour..... LET ME REPEAT IT FOR YOU......Better equipment would be one of the factors that decide operations! Especially in tank warfare! If a crew makes a error or is put into a bad operational situation (one of the factors that you allude to) then the better protected tank would survive. Thus the better equipped crew would get a second chance to take out the enemy/escape to fight another day. Simple isn't it? Iraqi tanks during GW-1 did manage to score hits upon U.S. tanks but the equipment they were using was substandard and thus all their skill at getting a hit was worthless.

 

[PakSniper]

Oh,. one other thing since your one of those "fight till death kinds", their's a little history lessons.

In the Haddith/Sunnah/Quran, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) himself, said (pharaprazing) fight until you see victory, if you can't fight a superior army leave to fight another day until victory is attainable. Haveing un-necessary losses be it he is Muslim isn't good, who will fight if you have men dying in zeal?! Lo, the beloved Prophet also said; Build longer range weapons, invest in spears and arrows and swords (Book: Commanders of the Muslim Army), and education be it if you have to go to the end of the world to attain it.