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Al-Zarrar Comparison with other tanks

Well obviously I prefer the 4 man crew so I give the AZ the edge in sustained operations and maintenance down time. 3-4 people work better than 2-3. This holds true in combat and pre-combat.

vs an un-upgraded T-72A I will take the AZ, I've always been fond of the T54/55/Type 59 chassis for a solid medium tank and with new technology and a new gun it has the edge, barely. Neither tank is very good by truly modern standards. The AZ has an updated armor package, updated FCS:assuming ballistic computer and multi-axis stabalisation, but no sign of a cross wind sensor or muzzle reference system to correct for thermal droop. An improved gun, anyone know if it is a Chinese design or Ukrainian licensed 2A46M? it also has what appears to be a much more robust frontal armor package plus ERA on the side. However it is underpowered, rough riding, and cramped (although roomier than a T-72) a legacy of a Chassis designed just after the end of WW2.

However the AZ will not be facing a T-72A but the Ajeya MK2 (T-72M1) and this tanks technology is equal to the AZ. It has an improved FCS, improved armor, thermal imaging, improved fire suppression, improved engine, and ERA. It also has better overall ballistic shaping and thicker base armor weight so the measurable differences (in a meeting engagement) are crew and armor weight. if both crews are fresh the Ajeya gets the nod because of better armor. If both crews have been traveling and fighting across rough terrain all day I will favor the AZ. In any fight where one side is defending and hull down, the defender gets the nod.

People need to remember that the AZ was never designed to give Pakistan an edge. It was designed to prevent Pakistan from falling further behind and perhaps re-reach nominal parity in tank forces.

Well the answer to a few of your questions.
I believe the tank main gun is a Chinese upgrade of a 2A46
The engine has been upgraded to a 730 HP (not sure if this would rectify the power issue.)
The suspension has been improved which would hopefully improve crew comfort.
Hey if the AZ can reach parity then I would be glad as it probably costs a fraction of a new build....
 
Well the answer to a few of your questions.
I believe the tank main gun is a Chinese upgrade of a 2A46
The engine has been upgraded to a 730 HP (not sure if this would rectify the power issue.)
The suspension has been improved which would hopefully improve crew comfort.
Hey if the AZ can reach parity then I would be glad as it probably costs a fraction of a new build....


The Chinese deny cloning the 2A46, although I do not believe that and think they did clone and modify the gun.

AZ 40/730 18.25hp ton Ajeya MK2 44/840 19hp ton


Theres only so much you can do to a 60 year old suspension, thew road wheel are still in the same place, same number, and the hull width/length hasn't changed.

The AZ does indeed appear to deliver a rough parity although I would not count on too much in savings. The AZ is cheaper than a new build but requires 25% more crew (recruitment, training, pay, health care, wages, housing, food etc) which over the life of the tank will add up.

skill vs technology

A tank is designed to deliver three things to the battlefield

Mobility+ firepower= shock when properly combined and delivered.

The delivery also comes in three parts

technology, training, and doctrine

The last big tank battle saw the clash of 2 different doctrines as well as two different technological levels. Iraq employed thier tanks in two distinct ways both perfect on paper. 1- Regular Army formations dug in and were supported by infantry, ATGM, artillery, mines, and obstacles to create kill zones and channels. These formations had older less capable equipment but on paper had the perfect blend of combined arms in a defensive mission. Backing them up were the Republican Guard units with better equipment, far better training, and most importantly aggressiveness. This system developed during the Iran-Iraq war was an almost carbon copy of the theory and doctrine of the German Army in the latter part of WW2. Namely hold and channel the front in order to let your reserves counter attack.

Pitted against them was a new style of warfare that reflected both Americas Cold war doctrine and its Wild West history. The US planned and executed an attack whose primary goal was not to destroy the Iraqi army by fire but by the tempo of the operation. The US blitzed or flanked the Iraqi formations and went pell mell for the rear. American crews had been training to do this since Reagen took office and thus had the skill and experience to do it even though 99% had never been shot at.

The front line Iraqi formations never had a chance, the US literally moved too fast for thier command cycle to follow. Even if thier communications had been at 100% no Army in history has been able to stop another army whose command cycle was faster and more nimble. It's called getting inside thier decision cycle or initive, once you've lost it your all but doomed.

The Republican Guard was a different story, as shown by the battle of 73 Easting they did everything right. They kept thier mass together to deliver a schwerepunkt into were they thought VII Corps flank was and they were aggressive and pressed forward. This is where skill and technology really combined to show just how lethal the combination can be. VII Corps was without a doubt the finest unblooded heavy armored force in history.

Leaving aside the technology differences the Guards never stood a chance. The US style of warfare meant that the US was always one or more steps ahead. The Abrams only made a bad situation hellish. The real secret weapon was information. The US had perfected what they called the reconnaissance battle and what they called at the time the Air Land Battle Doctrine.

Most people assume that a division will fight what it finds in front of it to a fairly shallow depth. Its a logical conclusion, thats where the obvious threat is, but thats not how the US fought. The US Division fought to a dept of about 40km while the USAF took the fight even deeper thus pressure was not just brought to bear on the enemy front line but his entire area of operations.This over loaded the Iraqi commanders who already suffering from a lack of solid intell , and a fear of marauding fighter bombers were being bombarded by reports of units under attack everywhere by numerous American assets in front of them, around them, behind them, and they themselves when they came up on the net. Their reserves were being attacked by fixed wing jets and attack helicopters, radio transmitters were being blasted within seconds of broadcasting, artillery was coming under counter battery fire before thier own shells had landed, and thier front lines were being ripped apart by superior firepower and maneuvering- No commander in history could kept track of everything going on without a system like the US had with out a information .

The effect was to shatter the Iraqi structure and this made each unit fight on its own without significant support. They were swarmed under so that even if the T-72 had been the equal of the Abrams the result would have been the same: Desert Storm was about doctrine not technology as shown by USMC M60A1ERA tanks that were every bit as effective with thier older tanks and 105mm guns. Although having the Abrams didn't hurt and reduced casualties, the result would have been the same 100 hour war if both sides had the same tanks.

Even America was surprised by the success of the attack, we epxted much higher losses.After all Iraq was battle hardened, had the worlds best tube artillery, unjammable fiber optic communications, was on the defensive etc plus they had poison gas. How the result was tremdous and it lead to the defining of a whole new style of warfare: RMA (Revolution in Military Affairs). This doctrine called for high tech weapons and highly skilled crews but most importantly folded the lessons of Desert Storm and of the ALB Doctrine in a system that stressed information above anything else. Once the big end of the Cold War drawn down was over and the new army was being formed, the US spent billions to develop a multi layered information warfare system was not just the old C3I(Command, Control, Communications, Intelligence), but C4SRI (Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Surveillance, Intelligence, Reconnaissance) that fought battles in depth (up to 200km deep) How effective this would be in a conventional fight would be shown in 2003. Yes Iraq was weaker in 2003, and yes the US was stronger, but the US was astride the Karbala Gap in a week and into Baghdad before the Iraqi Government had a chance to evacuate.

So in the end it is not just training nor is it just technology, it is technology in many forms, training the right way, and the proper doctrine for the mission and terrain.
 
Think of it this way RMA if applied to chess would let the player with RMA make 5 moves iwith several minutes to think about it for every move his opponent made while at the same time the player without RMA could only look at 1/4 for 30 seconds of the board per move.
 
Zraver, you question the suspension so here is something I found on Wikipedia reagrding Egyptian MBTs:

Ramses II: is a heavily modified T-55 Tank built by Egypt. The Ramses II has an American-style suspension similar to that of the M-60A3, and uses an upgraded engine of 840 hp output, transmission, drive train, and L7 105 mm gun . It carries more fuel internally, and has IR vision for the gunner and driver as well as image intensification for the commander and a laser range-finder with ballistic computer for the gunner. Armor has been added and has armored side skirts. Has an NBC overpressure system, and mounts 6 smoke grenade launchers on each side of the turret. The hatch layout has been retained, but the Ramses II is nearly one meter longer than the T-55 and with an added wheel on each side. Entered production upgrades in 2004-2005 (45 tons).


Any thoughts on this particlarly for Pakistan?
 
Zraver, you question the suspension so here is something I found on Wikipedia reagrding Egyptian MBTs:

Ramses II: is a heavily modified T-55 Tank built by Egypt. The Ramses II has an American-style suspension similar to that of the M-60A3, and uses an upgraded engine of 840 hp output, transmission, drive train, and L7 105 mm gun . It carries more fuel internally, and has IR vision for the gunner and driver as well as image intensification for the commander and a laser range-finder with ballistic computer for the gunner. Armor has been added and has armored side skirts. Has an NBC overpressure system, and mounts 6 smoke grenade launchers on each side of the turret. The hatch layout has been retained, but the Ramses II is nearly one meter longer than the T-55 and with an added wheel on each side. Entered production upgrades in 2004-2005 (45 tons).


Any thoughts on this particlarly for Pakistan?

The M60A1/A3 suspension isn't all that good. I started on the M60A3 TTS and our move/shoot envelope was 5-20mph, any faster and the vibrations affected accuracy. When we went to the M1IP Abrams the only limiting factor was the terrain, the tank itself on flat and level had a 0-45mph move/shoot. Compared to modern torsion bar pneumatic or hydro pneumatic its(M60) way behind. The AZ if it is using the same 125mm on the Ak type 96 etc offers better firepower Armored protection should be about the same to the front etc.

Now sitting still an M60A1/A3, Centurion, Typ3 59II etc properly bore sighted and with good optics, known range, and a good crew is the most accurate gunnery platform in history. The L7/M68 105mm rifled cannon is phenomenally accurate, but vs modern armor packages it is weak.
 
Zraver you have posted some excellent information and the perspective on the GW-1 conflict. And whilst I do agree with your analysis of the situation, the situation that is faced by the opposing forces is somewhat different here. Both forces as I see it are more closely matched in ground elements. And whilst there is disparity in for example the AF. the PAF would actually show itself and be able no doubt to put on a pretty good show.
I am sure there is not a great deal of difference in training. And as the relative size of both sides armies would preclude the training budget you might see in most western armies. This would limit a lot of the potential differences in doctrine. thus some of the major differences will be in equipment. A tank that can keep firing when hit, could potentially turn a battle (ala Michael Whitman style) So here (unlike in a mismatch like the GW-1) the abilities of specific items i believe will make the difference
 
I have a question both for Zraver and Keyseroze.

Ability and relative merits of the tanks aside; main use of the tank is as a battering ram and for encircling ( similar to the heavy cavalry of old ). In India vs Pakistan conflict environment, effectiveness of the tank forces can be substantially reduced simply thru flooding the ground by the breaching the canals. This was done by India at Khem Karan in 1965. This leaves us only the Rajasthan area bordering Sind and Bahawalpur where the superior qualities of the tank can be effectively exploited. However this border can be heavily mined thus denying the enemy use of their armour.

If the above hypothesis is correct and since Pakistan is going to fight mainly defensive battle in the South; main agression being in the North Punjab/Kashmir front;should PA be spending huge amounts on large tank force ??

Do you think that a lighter but highly mobile light tank which is not bogged down in soggy ground; in the nature of a heavily armed IFV; will be more useful??.
 
I have a question both for Zraver and Keyseroze.
since Pakistan is going to fight mainly defensive battle in the South; main agression being in the North Punjab/Kashmir front;should PA be spending huge amounts on large tank force ??


the main weapon of the PA in the N/Punjab/Kashmir front is the ATGW and believe me we have lots of them in that sector!
 
I have a question both for Zraver and Keyseroze.

Ability and relative merits of the tanks aside; main use of the tank is as a battering ram and for encircling ( similar to the heavy cavalry of old ). In India vs Pakistan conflict environment, effectiveness of the tank forces can be substantially reduced simply thru flooding the ground by the breaching the canals. This was done by India at Khem Karan in 1965. This leaves us only the Rajasthan area bordering Sind and Bahawalpur where the superior qualities of the tank can be effectively exploited. However this border can be heavily mined thus denying the enemy use of their armour.

If the above hypothesis is correct and since Pakistan is going to fight mainly defensive battle in the South; main agression being in the North Punjab/Kashmir front;should PA be spending huge amounts on large tank force ??

Yes, only tanks really have a chance of breaking a move by other tanks (en mass). helicopters, fixed wing, missiles etc all have thier place but no weapon on the battlefield can deliver the type of sustained and highly accurate fire or absorb the punishment of tanks. India or Pakistan for that matter only needs to grad a couple of cross points in order to pass through the flood zone and into open country.

Are you as a Pakistani willing to trust Lahore and Karachi to the Border security forces guarding the bridges? I know India doesn't. and what ever it is Cold Star is not meant to take place inside India.

Do you think that a lighter but highly mobile light tank which is not bogged down in soggy ground; in the nature of a heavily armed IFV; will be more useful??.

key,

I am sure there is not a great deal of difference in training. And as the relative size of both sides armies would preclude the training budget you might see in most western armies. This would limit a lot of the potential differences in doctrine. thus some of the major differences will be in equipment. A tank that can keep firing when hit, could potentially turn a battle (ala Michael Whitman style) So here (unlike in a mismatch like the GW-1) the abilities of specific items i believe will make the difference

This is an area where India and Pakistan fail, modern rounds are being designed to defeat MBT's and up armored mediums with exposed internal ammunition are death traps. I guess in this setting the AZ makes sense, if you can trade a $300,000 rebuild for a $1.5 million dollar new build on the field of battle Pakistan at least breaks even given the disparity in defense spending.
 
Zraver,

There seems to be various different forms of ERA on both Al Khalid and Al Zarar.

In some pictures it is flat blocks whereas others give the turrets an angled appearance.

Could you explain the difference between the two forms.
 
Zraver,

There seems to be various different forms of ERA on both Al Khalid and Al Zarar.

In some pictures it is flat blocks whereas others give the turrets an angled appearance.

Could you explain the difference between the two forms.

Probalby do to the generation. Early ERA was simple explosive filled boxes. As time went on and the knowledge base exapnded new more efficent forms emerged including improved shaping to provide more complete coverage, multiple layers to prevent one hit scrubs, and even self contained explosions.

Plus of course the Al Khalid also has ceramic armor facings applied in blocks and you might be confusing some of these armor blocks for ERA.
 
dsc00600vv3.jpg

The Indian Army has finally commenced an ambitious project to upgrade its T-72M1 Main Battle Tanks to modern day standards. Over the past two decades, the T-72M1 has provided yeoman service to the Army. It is well liked by the Army for its ruggedness, low silhouette and weight (41.5 tons) as well as firepower (125mm 2A46 smoothbore main gun, 12.7mm anti-air machine gun and 7.62mm co-axial). The T-72M1 is the backbone of the Indian armoured fleet, over 1700 tanks are believed to be in service. License production was undertaken at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Tamil Nadu. To keep the tank fleet viable, an upgrade plan was drawn up by the Army. But during the early 1990s, the Indian economy went through a tumultuous phase and the resulting fiscal problems forced these plans into abeyance.

Now the economy is on an upswing and the Army has hence been allocated funds to pursue this critical modernization. The tank upgrade will proceed in stages. The Indian T-72 fleet is huge and more modern tanks are also being inducted, so some T-72s are being outfitted with all the bells and whistles - the 'gold standard' so as to speak, whereas the rest will be modernised in a more modest manner. Commencement has begun by bringing 250 tanks to the DRDO's (Defence Research & Development Organisation) 'Combat Improved' Ajeya standard. (The T-72M1 has been named the Ajeya in Indian service). The 'gold standard' upgrade package includes:

• A new fire control system: the Drawa-T from PCO-Cenzin of Poland. The Drawa-T is present on the Polish PT-91 tanks, their much improved variant of the T-72, and a muzzle reference system.

• A thermal imager integrated with the Drawa-T fire control system, supplied by Israel's El-Op.

• New radios: DRDO's and BEL's (Bharat Electronics Ltd) state-of-the-art frequency hopping combat net radio, to be manufactured by BEL.

• A fibre optic gyro-based navigation system: BEL's advanced land navigation system.

• Laser Warning System: Designed by DRDO, BEL and Indian Industry, to be manufactured by BEL.

The tank's stabilisation will also be upgraded - the gun control system being the responsibility of Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. and/or the Electronics Corporation of India Ltd. The DRDO's Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) package will also be part and parcel of the upgrade. This comprehensive suite was developed for the Arjun program and is well tested. The ERA provides enhanced protection against both chemical (HEAT) as well as kinetic attack (FSAPDS). It reduces the effect of a Milan hit by 70%. The ERA coverage also extends to the turret top, for protection against top attack anti-tank guided missiles. The DRDO's ERA has saved the Indian exchequer a considerable amount in foreign exchange. DRDO notes that imported ERA packages would cost approximately Rs.4,80,000 per tank. At present exchange rates (as of March 2004) that comes to about USD $11K per tank, a substantial amount given the number of tanks India wishes to upgrade.

A new Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression system has also found its place in the upgrade. Improvements to the tank's Nuclear Biological & Chemical protection are also included. Both these technologies were developed by DRDO via the Arjun program. India's Defense Ministry has noted that the 'Combat Improved' Ajeyas have begun rolling out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Tamil Nadu with transfer of technology and other improvements having taken place smoothly. To bear this increased weight, the T-72 will also receive a new power pack. Apparently, an attempt to shoehorn the T-90S' 1000 hp engine into the T-72 was unsuccessful. Several European firms have their engines on offer. Wartsila and Slovakia's Kerametal have both offered 1000 hp engine solutions to India.

However, India's most recent tank project - the Tank-Ex has been equipped with a 1000 hp engine - the T-72's 780 hp one up rated to 1000 hp. HVF Avadi and DRDO have been working on this project for some time and its selection for the Tank-Ex indicates that its development is complete. This relatively low cost option would be the best choice for the Indian tank upgrade and is probably the engine of choice. The Arjun program has served its purpose - many of its spin-offs have been applied to the T-72 upgrade. These include the armour, laser warning system, the Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression System. DRDO and BEL's work on other aspects has also borne fruit - the Combat Net Radio is the Army's choice. Apart from these, DRDO and OFB's (Ordnance Factory Board) 125mm Fin Stabilised Armour Penetrating Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) round is also a direct spin-off of the Arjun MBT program. After some initial hiccups, the production has stabilised once more - since 2001, some 130,000 rounds have been produced by OFB.
 
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