Al-Khalid 2

[sigatoka]

1. I was Canadian Forces and I observed 1st hand the so called Saudi military. M109s that they've bought were rusting in the desert. The Saudis can buy the Starship Enterprise and within a year, it will be a rusting hulk.

2. I would not count on the Saudis to be a reference for any piece of kit. It would only make you a laughing stock. Just pocket the money and laugh your way to the bank. Don't count on anything more than that.

1. When exactly where you in Saudi Arabia, just curious.

2. You know after gulf war the Saudi's were forced (by the idiot saddam who was bankrupting his nation to support its military) to purchase large amounts of equipment while the nose diving oil price and huge increase in debt and liquidation of foregin assets to pay for the war ensured there was large budgetary pressures. By over-extending on purchasing arms the Saudi's had too little resources to allocate to training and integrating purchases.

Also even in gulf war had the Iraqi's decided to invade into Saudi Arabia they would have faced heavy losses. Saudi wasnt Kuwait, but indeed a ring of cities (and the important Eastern Oil fields) would probably have been destroyed sending oil prices rocketing up.

Also Iraq had fully extended economy to support largest possible military, the Saudi's were not. Had Iraq (foolishly invaded Saudi) and U.S. not intervened, the Saudi's would have initiated a general mobilisation of the entire male age fighting population armed with light weapons to reinforce volunteer military to fight bloody battles in the North East. This was a step that neither the Saudi's nor Saddam would have wanted.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

1. When exactly where you in Saudi Arabia, just curious.

After the Kuwait War.

the Saudi's would have initiated a general mobilisation of the entire male age fighting population armed with light weapons to reinforce volunteer military to fight bloody battles in the North East. This was a step that neither the Saudi's nor Saddam would have wanted.

You mean to surrender. The best soldiers the Saudis ever had was wearing Pakistani uniforms. In the West, we usually have 3 different types of soldiers. Our top 3rd usually do the job by themselves without any supervision. Our middle 3rd, just show them how to do the job once and off they go. And then our bottom 3rd who requires constant hand holding and supervision. Well, the Saudi's top 3rd is our bottom 3rd.

Anyone watching a video of their supposed elite forces helo inserting into the compound to rescue the hostages could not be aghast that they were sitting on the roof for over 10 minutes while the helo rotors is telling everybody inside that something bad is coming down.

You do know how Al Khafji was captured by the Iraqis? By a feint. Iraqi tanks approached the town with the turret guns pointed backwards (universal signal of a tank raising their hands). The Saudis instead of taking the proper precaution, oh I don't know, how about lining up the artillery? They just walked out with weapons slung to greet the Iraqis. When the Iraqis turned their guns around, they ran.

 

[sigatoka]

1. You mean to surrender. The best soldiers the Saudis ever had was wearing Pakistani uniforms.

2. In the West, we usually have 3 different types of soldiers. Our top 3rd usually do the job by themselves without any supervision. Our middle 3rd, just show them how to do the job once and off they go. And then our bottom 3rd who requires constant hand holding and supervision. Well, the Saudi's top 3rd is our bottom 3rd.

3. Anyone watching a video of their supposed elite forces helo inserting into the compound to rescue the hostages could not be aghast that they were sitting on the roof for over 10 minutes while the helo rotors is telling everybody inside that something bad is coming down.

4. You do know how Al Khafji was captured by the Iraqis? By a feint. Iraqi tanks approached the town with the turret guns pointed backwards (universal signal of a tank raising their hands). The Saudis instead of taking the proper precaution, oh I don't know, how about lining up the artillery? They just walked out with weapons slung to greet the Iraqis. When the Iraqis turned their guns around, they ran.

1. So? 2,000 soldiers in the British army are from Fiji, tens of thousands of soldiers in U.S. army are of Mexican decent, if a lot of competent soldiers in the Saudi armed forces are from Pakistan that is a sign that the Saudis are taking advantage from the fact that Pak. young men have a much lower opportunity cost as soldiers. It also benefits Pak. from the transfer payments these people send back to families and it allows these men to earn more than they otherwise could.

2. Of course they would, the West spends much more on training than developing nations can. Saudi troops should be compared to that of developing nations.

3. German special forces in that Olympics, U.S. special forces in Tehran did not perform a lot better. Western forces are also encountering losses in Afghanistan and Iraq against poor opposition, so the performance of Saudi forces have to be seen in this context.

4. Just one town. Also the Saudi's recognised that the U.S. would intervene due to long alliance and the fact that U.S. couldnt afford a catastrophic rise in Oil prices. If the Saudi's really believed that the U.S. wouldnt intervene, they would have acted much more quickly in general mobilisation and moving troops and equipment to the sector.

In the invasion of Iraq western forces took some causalities from such tactics. Also U.S. forces have suffered heavy losses from I.E.D.'s and had been relatively slow to change tactics and equipment so the fact that the Saudi's made a mistake doesnt mean mistakes are unique to their force.

p.s. The marines also ran from there.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

1. So? 2,000 soldiers in the British army are from Fiji, tens of thousands of soldiers in U.S. army are of Mexican decent, if a lot of competent soldiers in the Saudi armed forces are from Pakistan that is a sign that the Saudis are taking advantage from the fact that Pak. young men have a much lower opportunity cost as soldiers. It also benefits Pak. from the transfer payments these people send back to families and it allows these men to earn more than they otherwise could.

No, as in they were Pakistani Army assigned by Islamabad to the KSA. As in they were Pakistani soliders trained and paid for by Pakistan, not the KSA.

2. Of course they would, the West spends much more on training than developing nations can. Saudi troops should be compared to that of developing nations.

How about this? When compared to the Pak Army, the Saudis still suck. Would the Pak Army let a $mil piece of equipment rust in the desert?

3. German special forces in that Olympics, U.S. special forces in Tehran did not perform a lot better. Western forces are also encountering losses in Afghanistan and Iraq against poor opposition, so the performance of Saudi forces have to be seen in this context.

Horse Pucky! I can accept poor performances when people don't know any better but when you're talking "elite," that excuse goes out the window.

4. Just one town. Also the Saudi's recognised that the U.S. would intervene due to long alliance and the fact that U.S. couldnt afford a catastrophic rise in Oil prices. If the Saudi's really believed that the U.S. wouldnt intervene, they would have acted much more quickly in general mobilisation and moving troops and equipment to the sector.

More Horse Pucky! The Saudis got an entire air wing, an American air wing at their disposal and they still ran.

In the invasion of Iraq western forces took some causalities from such tactics. Also U.S. forces have suffered heavy losses from I.E.D.'s and had been relatively slow to change tactics and equipment so the fact that the Saudi's made a mistake doesnt mean mistakes are unique to their force.

They RAN!

p.s. The marines also ran from there.

More Horse Pucky! The Marines stayed and fight. There was an entire Marine section that stayed in the city and called in arty strikes.

 

[sparten]

I remember a reletive of mine was stationed in Saudi Arabia, and his responsibility was training the Saudis. He said he began to realize why the Wellington wanted to keep flogging in the army.

So that bad eh?

 

[Officer of Engineers]

So that bad eh?

I remembered driving up to the gate at the base. I saw the weapon muzzle has not been cleaned in I don't know how long. I remarked to my guide that I wouldn't fire that weapon. His reply was don't worry, he doesn't have any bullets.

 

[sigatoka]

1. When compared to the Pak Army, the Saudis still suck.

2. Would the Pak Army let a $mil piece of equipment rust in the desert?

1. The Pak. military was defeated and allowed the Pak. state to be ripped in two. The performance of the military is not about only the discipline of individual soldiers, it is about whether the military is able to further the aims of the state. In this regard i fail to see the Pak. military having performed much better than the Saudi military.

2. When something is scarce, you take much more care of it. The Pak. military doesnt have many $mil pieces of equipment and therefore they take much greater care of the little they have. I understand that the Saudi military expenditure doesnt give much bang for buck but using

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2067rank.html

its shows that Saudi spends around $18b which is around same as Australia. Looking at Australia's capabilties, its not a quantum leap over that of Saudi.

 

[sparten]

The PA in East Pakistan was outnumbered without air support inside very unfriendly territory. How do you expect them to fo anything there.

And there have been lots of improvements since 1971.

 

[sigatoka]

1. The PA in East Pakistan was outnumbered without air support inside very unfriendly territory. How do you expect them to fo anything there.

2. And there have been lots of improvements since 1971.

1. The same hasnt happened for Saudi

2. So is Saudi's military capabilities.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

1. The Pak. military was defeated and allowed the Pak. state to be ripped in two. The performance of the military is not about only the discipline of individual soldiers, it is about whether the military is able to further the aims of the state. In this regard i fail to see the Pak. military having performed much better than the Saudi military.

Well, how about this? The Pak Army actually put up a fight.

2. When something is scarce, you take much more care of it. The Pak. military doesnt have many $mil pieces of equipment and therefore they take much greater care of the little they have.

It's called discipline. Something which the Saudis don't have.

I understand that the Saudi military expenditure doesnt give much bang for buck but using

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2067rank.html

its shows that Saudi spends around $18b which is around same as Australia. Looking at Australia's capabilties, its not a quantum leap over that of Saudi.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE CRAPPING ME!!!! The Austalians have conducted and is still is conducting combat operations across the globe. The Saudis couldn't even handle their own little messes

 

[Chukkar]

The PA in East Pakistan was outnumbered without air support inside very unfriendly territory. How do you expect them to fo anything there.

The PA performance in 71 was a disgrace by any standards.

And there have been lots of improvements since 1971.

Yes, but the Saudis have improved too. Underrating all their forces is being complacent.

 

[blain2]

The PA performance in 71 was a disgrace by any standards.

Easier for you to say that...

KSA has never faced the odds that PA had to face in EP in 71. What are the standards that you are referring to? An evenly matched IA was handed its *** by the Chinese in 62 and here you expect that 45000 troops should have worked out some sort of a miracle by holding back a three-pronged attack by 3 times their number in IA and another 100K MBs who had the support of the locals all the while without air support or replenishment of troops or material from West Pakistan?

 

[sigatoka]

1. The Austalians have conducted and is still is conducting combat operations across the globe. The Saudis couldn't even handle their own little messes

1. Australia has a moat called the ocean around it, it has submarines that have trouble floating and planes that cause cancer to the maintenance crews.

Even if Saudi's airforce is only 1/3 operational, that still leaves around 70 modern planes and they are in the process of acquiring more. They also have ground forces numbering 160,000 volunteers (anthony cordesman) which is far more than Aust. 50,000. They also have 200 operational MBT's which is far more than Aust. 70 or so. They have hundreds of APC's and IFV's which is more than Aust.

The resources are not being spent as well as they could, but not as bad as you paint compared to other nations who spend similar amounts.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

1. Australia has a moat called the ocean around it, it has submarines that have trouble floating and planes that cause cancer to the maintenance crews.

So? Australia is still a 1000 times more combat capable than Saudi Arabia.

Even if Saudi's airforce is only 1/3 operational, that still leaves around 70 modern planes and they are in the process of acquiring more.

And at least half those planes are being flown by instructors, ada mercs.

They also have ground forces numbering 160,000 volunteers (anthony cordesman) which is far more than Aust. 50,000.

Double that 160,000 and I will take Australia's 50,000 over those rascals anyday.

They also have 200 operational MBT's which is far more than Aust. 70 or so. They have hundreds of APC's and IFV's which is more than Aust.

Yeah, and most of them are rusting in the desert.

The resources are not being spent as well as they could, but not as bad as you paint compared to other nations who spend similar amounts.

The Saudis are crap. Who took back Al Khafji from the Iraqis? The Qataris! And before you go about the USMC being in the same thing. I remind you that it was a USMC section that stayed in the city to direct the artillery. And a USMC LAR Battalion killed an entire Iraqi T-72 brigade in that same battle.

The Saudis are bad. The Australians would have no problem killing their entire army. Hell, a Canadian mech brigade group could wipe out the entire Saudi army.

Here's a good primer why the Saudis suck

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs1.html

 

[Sid]

OOE, watch the language please. Calling a nation's soldiers 'rascals' doesn't really help the discussion.