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Ahmadis in Pakistan

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offtopic:
So that means if I were to convert to Islam and then maybe 5 years later renounce it. I would be subjected to death penalty?? (As per Islamic law ofcoz). Isn't that a bit too harsh??(understatement)

NO there is no Islamic law neither in Quran nor given by Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). So there is no punishment in Islam for leaving Islam.


The only difference it makes is that anyone who renounces Islam is out of Islam and is called murtid.


I repeat again there is NO Punishment Not even minor one what to say about death penalty in Islam for renouncing.
 
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Ahmedi's are non-muslims, but unlike other non-muslim communities they are seen as inherently a danger to all Muslims(Sunni or Shia since I don't differentiate in Muslims). The simple reason being that they use our Book, Our method of worship but defy the Basic tenet of Accepting Prophet Mohammad as the Last seal of prophet hood. There and then, no matter what argument may be presented is the nail in the coffin of those Ahmedis looking for recognition as muslims from other muslims.

The Issue of Khatam an nabi is simple, SEAL, End, Finality. Which means that anyone after Mohammad PBUH claiming to be a prophet of his caliber, i.e the last prophet, the apogee of humanity is false. If that were untrue, then Abu Bakr would not have ordered war against the multiple false prophets that sprung up after Mohammad PBUH Passing. And there would be a Musallima sect in Islam just like Shias and Sunni's. If one is to take the Caliph Abu Bakr, The most trusted man to the prophet and closest confidante's actions as example. Then the mistrust and hatred of the Ahmediyya community is justified. Since the main question of all Muslims to the Ahmediyya community is: "How dare you question the finality of the Prophet and accept a common man who stared with Imam,then Mehdi and finally declared himself as prophet to be true?".

My father asked this question of the great grandson of Ghulam Ahmed when he worked in the same office, in a frank way asking him to tell my father why was this done and if people have misinterpreted this then why dont the Ahmediyaa community clear this up once and for all and spare themselves the antagonism of millions of Muslims.
After throwing answers here and there about his persecution he finally blurted out that Ghulam Ahmed was misunderstood and he only claimed himself as Mehdi and not the prophet. If one is to accept this argument from a descendant of Ghulam Ahmed as true. Then why, Ghulam Ahmed's actions were completely inconsistent with all the Predictions Prophet Mohammad PBUH made about the Mehdi which are clearly recorded in the "Mustanad" Hadiath.
Unfortunately I wish I would get the opportunity to ask this question of him, It would clear up the last remaining doubt in my mind about the Ahmediyya religion.
Till that question of mine is answered, I for one stand by as seeing the Ahmediyya community as equal to the Bahai faith. A falsified offshoot of Islam. However, Unlike the Bahai faith wherein the complete context of the religion has been changed. The Ahmediyya community blends in the mainstream without standing out. It is only when they are questioned when they reveal themselves. So from a viewpoint of Islamic clergy and those Muslims who wish to safeguard the sanctity and authenticity of Islam the Ahmediyya community is as great a threat as those people currently blowing themselves up, Thrashing women, butchering and slaughtering in the name of Islam. Since they too are not prepared to accept that what they are doing is not part of Islam, and that they are the ones on the true path.
Now, the question is, Is violence against the Ahmediyaa community justified?
Ahmediyaa have on occasion served Pakistan well, such as Major General Akhtar Malik. But on other occasions have almost destroyed institutions Pakistani's hold very dear . Air Marshal Zafar Chaudry is an example, his personal agenda nearly destroyed the PAF. But one can argue that people like that come from all communities.

So the argument presented earlier that Ahmedis have given a lot of sacrifices for Pakistan is frail on the standing that so has the Christan community and the Sikh community. They did it out of personal bravery and sacrifice and I doubt any of them were thinking "Oh.. this might do good for Christianity, lets so something heroic".

However, unlike the Taliban Kharjis, the Ahmediyya community is not a violent one but like the Taliban are silently converting people to their faith. Also, Unlike the Taliban who stand by firmly the belief that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his final messenger. The Ahmediyya community does not accept this. There is no doubt in my mind nor should it be in anyone's Else's that no other Muslim community is soo expressive and protective about their love for the Prophet then the Muslims of the sub-continent and will show ZERO tolerance. Anyone willing to risk their lives may try telling a Pakistani dancing at a party some demeaning thing about the prophet Mohammad and he will be lucky to get out unharmed.

In such a society if you are willing to admit anything less then the finality of prophet-hood then you are in big trouble. And to complain about persecution and oppression is folly. Bhutto has done the best service to this nation in many respects, and one of them was having the Ahmediya community declared as non-muslims.
This leaves two alternativs to Ahmediyya's if they wish to survive in Pakistan.
1. Declare Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as NOT being a prophet.
2.Mass Exodus.

Otherwise, expect more anguish as long as you are here. Since no self respecting Muslim will let Ahmediyyas preach here as long as they continue to defy the basic tenet of Islam.
And most will quietly support the attack on the community even when condemning it, since as I mentioned earlier. We love the prophet way too much to tolerate anything against him or his status.
 
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Can somebody tell me the answer of two questions

1) I am yet to see any poor Ahmedi in my life........ i mean every Ahmedi i know is very rich :confused: - so have you seen any poor Ahmedi?

2) I am yet to see any Ahmedi being tortured in Pakistan although my neighbours are Ahmedis and i spent my whole childhood playing with them and often visiting their home. I know number of Ahmedis but i am yet to hear any incident where they became a victim of discrimination

Can anybody else shed some light on this issue with their practical experience only? and not from the videos
 
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Why has this been made a sticky? Theres many other Pakistanis who need our attention, not these kuffar who made an indian punjabi man their prophet.

You choosed avatar of a great man Quid-e-Azam. Quid-e-Azam had chosen such a person to be the first Foreign Minister of his newly founded Muslim state ... "who made an indian punjabi man his prophet"...!!!
 
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Can somebody tell me the answer of two questions

1) I am yet to see any poor Ahmedi in my life........ i mean every Ahmedi i know is very rich :confused: - so have you seen any poor Ahmedi?

2) I am yet to see any Ahmedi being tortured in Pakistan although my neighbours are Ahmedis and i spent my whole childhood playing with them and often visiting their home. I know number of Ahmedis but i am yet to hear any incident where they became a victim of discrimination

Can anybody else shed some light on this issue with their practical experience only? and not from the videos

I am also in search answers to these questions thanks zaki for posting them...:cheers:
 
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Why has this been made a sticky? Theres many other Pakistanis who need our attention, not these kuffar who made an indian punjabi man their prophet.

what the hell your problem is if they are Kaffir or Musalman? as if Kaffir is not human being and doesnt desreve to live like the otehrs. this attitude of yours is not any less than of Mollah omar and Baitullah.
 
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offtopic:
So that means if I were to convert to Islam and then maybe 5 years later renounce it. I would be subjected to death penalty?? (As per Islamic law ofcoz). Isn't that a bit too harsh??(understatement)

NO there is no Islamic law neither in Quran nor given by Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). So there is no punishment in Islam for leaving Islam.


The only difference it makes is that anyone who renounces Islam is out of Islam and is called murtid.


I repeat again there is NO Punishment Not even minor one what to say about death penalty in Islam for renouncing.

I didn't want to answer it but since Jana did it, let me make it clear

If a non-Muslim converted to Islam and later on to any third religion he is considered traiter in Islam. Its like an army officer who joined for example Pakistan Army and later on left Pakistan Army to join Indian Army instead. He will be considered a traiter according to the law or at least in the eyesight of an army.

If there is any non-believer thats not a problem, he enjoys the equal rights as per Muslims under the Islamic state but if a non-believer accepts Islam and then reject it once again he is considered a traiter also known as Murtad and the punishment for the traiter is Death. This rule does not apply in any Muslim country any longer but Islamically this is what it is. That is why it is always said before your convert to Islam, you have to understand it thoroughly, Islam is a total submission to god. So once you have submitted yourself to god, there is no Ifs or Buts.



No more comments please
 
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It is not black and white as you mentioned. It is only sunni muslims belief that Pr. MOhamad is last, but Ahmad muslims do not think so. So according to the Ahmeds, Sunnis are the false muslims and dont deserve to be called so. Wil you accept the logic?
Thats why its so tragic that Ahmediyyas are treated like this. In india they are treated with lot of respect and are doing very well for themselves

Mr billi, it is as clear as black&white that Ahmadi's r not muslim's by any strech of imagination.

They r not even 0.0000001 per sent of total sunni population.

They not considering sunni's as muslims is as parsi's not considering hindu as hindu in india.

And pls be my guest if u r willing to take them to india, they will feel more secure amoung there own brother's :cheers:
 
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The Ahmadi community in the United States urged Pakistan to repeal laws restricting the community and to clamp down on hardline Sunni clerics, who it said have waged a campaign of incitement.

“The time is now for the world to wake up to the realisation that the goal of the extremist clerics is to execute a full-scale holocaust,” said Naseem Mahdi, the missionary-in-charge of the US Ahmadi community.

“Even today, after this massacre, on television, in the streets, on billboards, in public meetings, the hatred continues to be preached and no one in any governmental body takes steps to stop people from such incitement to murder,” he told a news conference in New York.

Militants last week stormed two Ahmadi prayer halls in Lahore, killing 82 worshippers in gun and grenade attacks. Gunmen later raided the hospital where victims were treated, killing four people in a shootout.

Mahdi, who put the death toll at 94, said urged US officials to raise religious freedom with Pakistan, which is receiving a 7.5 billion-dollar US package aimed at building its economy and democratic institutions.

“The US government must take every measure in its power to have all levels of government in Pakistan eliminate the laws and ordinances that have become the tools to facilitate and institutionalize the persecution of Ahmadi Muslims” and have been used against other minorities, he said.

Founded by Ghulam Ahmad, who was born in 1838, the Ahmadis believe that Ahmad himself was a prophet and that Jesus died aged 120 in Srinagar.

Pakistan declared them non-Muslims in 1974 and 10 years later they were barred from calling themselves Muslims.

The Ahmadis are strongly critical of violence in the name of Islam.

“The extremists have repeatedly used their power over the masses to brutally attack us in the name of the defence of Islam. They try to gain by violence what they fail to gain by argument, reason and rationality,” Mahdi said.

Religious violence in Pakistan, mostly between majority Sunni Muslims and minority Shias, has killed more than 4,000 people in the past decade.

The Ahmadi community has also encountered problems in other countries including Egypt, which earlier this year detained nine Ahmadis.

The US Commission on International Religious Freedom, a government advisory board, called on Egypt to release them “immediately and unconditionally.”

Egypt has held the Ahmadis using a prohibition against insulting Islam along with a controversial emergency powers law.

Neither charge has “any merit whatsoever,” said Leonard Leo, the chairman of the US commission.

“Both are a blatant violation of their international right to freedom of religion or belief as well as contrary to Egypt's own constitutional protections,” he said.
 
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The Ahmadi community in the United States urged Pakistan to repeal laws restricting the community and to clamp down on hardline Sunni clerics, who it said have waged a campaign of incitement.

“The time is now for the world to wake up to the realisation that the goal of the extremist clerics is to execute a full-scale holocaust,” said Naseem Mahdi, the missionary-in-charge of the US Ahmadi community.

“Even today, after this massacre, on television, in the streets, on billboards, in public meetings, the hatred continues to be preached and no one in any governmental body takes steps to stop people from such incitement to murder,” he told a news conference in New York.

Militants last week stormed two Ahmadi prayer halls in Lahore, killing 82 worshippers in gun and grenade attacks. Gunmen later raided the hospital where victims were treated, killing four people in a shootout.

Mahdi, who put the death toll at 94, said urged US officials to raise religious freedom with Pakistan, which is receiving a 7.5 billion-dollar US package aimed at building its economy and democratic institutions.

“The US government must take every measure in its power to have all levels of government in Pakistan eliminate the laws and ordinances that have become the tools to facilitate and institutionalize the persecution of Ahmadi Muslims” and have been used against other minorities, he said.

Founded by Ghulam Ahmad, who was born in 1838, the Ahmadis believe that Ahmad himself was a prophet and that Jesus died aged 120 in Srinagar.

Pakistan declared them non-Muslims in 1974 and 10 years later they were barred from calling themselves Muslims.

The Ahmadis are strongly critical of violence in the name of Islam.

“The extremists have repeatedly used their power over the masses to brutally attack us in the name of the defence of Islam. They try to gain by violence what they fail to gain by argument, reason and rationality,” Mahdi said.

Religious violence in Pakistan, mostly between majority Sunni Muslims and minority Shias, has killed more than 4,000 people in the past decade.

The Ahmadi community has also encountered problems in other countries including Egypt, which earlier this year detained nine Ahmadis.

The US Commission on International Religious Freedom, a government advisory board, called on Egypt to release them “immediately and unconditionally.”

Egypt has held the Ahmadis using a prohibition against insulting Islam along with a controversial emergency powers law.

Neither charge has “any merit whatsoever,” said Leonard Leo, the chairman of the US commission.

“Both are a blatant violation of their international right to freedom of religion or belief as well as contrary to Egypt's own constitutional protections,” he said.

hmmm intersting....
 
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Why waste your time with me, after all I am an Ahmadi

I am an Ahmadi. There are four million of me in Pakistan. This Islamic Republic is the only state in the world which has officially declared me to to be a non-Muslim. Why? It’s simple. I am an Ahmadi.

Actually this comment is funny and little bit twisted. I mean ok fine Pakistan is the only country who has officially declared them Non-Muslims. But also there is not any single Muslim country who has declared them Muslims :disagree:

I mean by constitution they are not declared Non-Muslims as they did not bother to amend their constitution for this sole purpose. Other countries are not like Pakistan who keep changing its constitution for the benefit of one leader or another but at the same time there is not a single scholar in any Muslim country who declared them Muslim.

Thats something - is not even a matter of debate. There is no second thought on this issue
 
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why do we have to have such a think in constituion to examine who is muslim and who is not?
 
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why do we have to have such a think in constituion to examine who is muslim and who is not?

Ok sir make your constitution according to your own will its our constitution and we know what should we have in it don't want others to dictate us...:cheers:
 
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Ok sir make your constitution according to your own will its our constitution and we know what should we have in it don't want others to dictate us...:cheers:

that is not a dictate mate, this is an open forum and we can discus things no matter where we come from. havent we seen pakistani members talking about afghanistna issues as if afghanistna is their country? they even suppport and encourage violance in afghanistan too.
 
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