Ahmadis in Pakistan

[Comet]

IT IS INSECURITY, if there's a god up there he certainly knows how to purify his religion plus people who support the black ordinance i.e Ordinance XX don't have legibility to preach others about 'rights'

Hi,

Go back a few pages and see what I said about ordinance XX.

God is surely up there and He has his followers down here to follow his orders.

I don't understand why people are asking a huge majority aka Muslims to share their name with some small group of people who are not Muslims.

 

[tnt123]

I am not convinced by the arguments here. I can only come to the conclusion that those who are open to calling Ahmedis as muslims do not care about the future of Islam. They are willing to sacrifice Islam for the cause of some wishy-washy "multicultural" society (the kind of nonsense that we have here in UK)

 

[khuramonline]

And what did i say ?



Where is that condition that i have made?

You agree to this this ... but what you do not agree to is that that.

Dear ... your "that that" are your self made conditions. What I said was that Prophet of Islam (PBUH) is Rehmat-al-lil-Alamin ... And you have accepted it subject to your self made (that that) conditions.

So you do not Believe that Prophet Muhammad SAW is the Last Prophet ?

You are a dishonest person. I had RIGHTFULLY pointed out that first kalima doesn't include word "last". I had not said more than this. Now you are twisting and questioning my beliefs.

OK ... Now I ask you where Quran has given you the right to ask or question beliefs of others...???

Remember ... to question beliefs of others is not the duty/task of humans.

In Quran ... Allah has asked HIS Messanger to tell Kuffar ... "Lakum Deenokum Walyadeen."

"Tumhare liye tumhara deen aur mere liye mera deen."

So you have NO right to ask anything of my beliefs.

Sparkelingway has presented very relevant hadith which accurately defines a Muslim.

And Ahmedies come upto this definition. Ahmedies even come up to your stated list of beliefs.

Parliament had no right to define another definition of Muslim. Parliament has thus misused its authority.


And you have presented some pics where some unknown kalima is written. This is NOT the official stance of Ahmediyya community. So this is useless to present unofficial/anonymous things. Ahmediyya is Not a disbursed/scattered community. It has an accepted central authority. Go and confirm your pics from that central authority. If they approve it then come and present those pics here.

* Quran declares Prophet Muhammad SAW as the Last Prophet - clear as anything - if you do not believe in the Lastness of Prophet Muhammad SAW - you are defying Quran which of course is the word of Allah SWT and is the Basic Condition of faith.

You have presented translation of Quranic verse. You can see yourself that "last etc." is written in the brackets. Means word last is nowhere expressively in the whole of Quran. So it is NOT a BASIC condition of faith. This word "last" even NOT included in your own stated list of basic beliefs.


Regards!

 

[apophenia]

It is called a "Shia" funeral as it was offered mostly by family members who were Shia and it was led by a Shia imam and offered according to Shia rituals. I have the name of the Imam in some obscure book, it's not normally mentioned.

Allama Anisul Hasnain was the shia scholar, who did his ghusal and namaz-i-janaza which was attended by Yousaf Haroon, Hashem Raza, and Aftab Hatim Ruzvi.After the private funeral, his body was later handed over to the state and then the Sunni Deobandi Alim Shabir Ahmad Usmani lead the namaz-i-janaza at the ground where later Jinnah Mausoleum was constructed.

Pakistan: Behind the Ideological Mask by Khaled Ahmed

 

[warlock]

If we allow this sort of thing to continue, soon we will become like our hindu neighbours who worship anything from rats to dogs and elephants to trees. I do not mean to offend any hindus here, but that is the unfortunate fact. We are not like them and we do not want to become like them.

i hope you will soon be thrown out of this forum... for posting such cheap comment.. only reflecting how you are!


your post has been reported!

 

[apophenia]

Ahmadi kalima on Ahmadiyya central mosque, Nigeria,

Jammat e Ahmadiya declares Muslims as Kafirs.

I think it's probably slightly doctored, or a fake. I have not seen a proper, independent verification of that photo and it makes quite hard to believe. Moreover that image is hosted on many anti admadiyya sites which doesn’t give it much creditability. Btw keep away from those hate sites. Read MGA works which is Urdu and you will get the drift.

 

[tnt123]

i hope you will soon be thrown out of this forum... for posting such cheap comment.. only reflecting how you are!


your post has been reported!

Did I say something factually incorrect? Do Hindus not worship animals and plants? In Hinduism anybody can declare themselves God or messenger of God at any time and people worship him. Is that no true? Are there not several of these "living gods" in India who are worshiped by millions of people?


If you feel insulted by hearing your own religion then maybe you should change it!

 

[khuramonline]

@tnt

In many cases religion doesn't restrict anything or impose ban on anything. If in such cases ppl start making self imposed bans ... in the name of religion ... then it is a worst form of ignorance.

Things which have not been restricted by religion ... do not need your permission.

 

[apophenia]

Here we are talking of Full Prophet ... NOT Prophet.

What he might have declared himself in 1900s was prophet in maximum two ways:

1- that he claimed to be Promised Masih ... means Re-Arrival of Hazrat Issa .... since Hazrat Isa was a prophet so he should remain a prophet in re-arrival also.

2- In the capacity of Imam Mehdi,,,, his jamaat does consider him Qamar Muneer (i.e. Roshan Chand) and his Jamaat considers Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) as Siraj-e-Muneer i.e. (Roshan Sooraj)

So whatever be called,,, his that "prophethood" was not independent. Like light of moon is not independent. Light of moon depends on light of Sun. So his prophethood depended on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

His jamaat accepted him prophet in this sense. And this meaning doesn't go against Khatam-e-Nabuwat because Prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) is AUTHENTICATING the other prophethood. Meaning of "Khatam" is also authenticating stamp.

Therefore wo jo bhi tha ... os ka sooraj k saamne chand hone ka he claim tha.

Os ka khud Sooraj hone ka koi claim nahi tha.

Wo to accept kerta tha k jo bhi roshni jis ka wo dawa kerta hai ... os ne Sooraj se he hasil ki thi.

Aur .... Full Prophet ka meaning Sooraj hona hai.

Tum log kaise Musalaman ho ... ???

Apne Sooraj ki respect itni ziada kerte ho k kisi chand ko tolerate nahi ker sakte. Balke ulta ose ghalat advice dete ho k jao aik separate Sooraj ban jao...!!!

Regards!

One cannot simply invent a concept and associated it established religion . All independent as well as Islamic schools rejects the notion of Zilli and Buroozi or mera chand tera soraj or full prophet or half prophet. Please refrain from giving long convoluted answers which leads to nowhere because you are relying on metaphorical gibberish. Mirza attending a heighten spirituality extended through Muhammad is absurd. Why not for once Jammat come out and try to clear the air in the light of Quran or Sunnah so everyone can shut up rather than running away from it .

I don’t have problem with someone’s SUN or your CHAND as long as you are being honest. And I am not Believer.

 

[khuramonline]

But there is no need to reject these things. These are not hate preaching. They are only used to exemplify ... to explain complex ideas in simple form ....

There is very popular Na'at: "Wo suhani gharri chamka tayyaba ka chand"...

All these things are present in literature.

Zilli, Baroozi ... might have been rejected by orthodoxy ... but they are present ... "Ana-al-Haq" ... Fana-Fi-Allah,,, Fana-Fi-Rasool .... Negation of Self,,, Unity with Superior being...

Everything is present in accepted Islamic Literature.

 

[apophenia]

But there is no need to reject these things. These are not hate preaching. They are only used to exemplify ... to explain complex ideas in simple form ....

To understand the main beliefs and teachings of Islam/Quran, literal meaning is enough. Refer the verse about no compulsion in religion. But apparently to understand qadianism, exemplification is essential to figure out complex metaphors. Without it, ghulamiyah cannot be rationalized.

All these things are present in literature.

Zilli, Baroozi ... might have been rejected by orthodoxy ... but they are present ... "Ana-al-Haq" ... Fana-Fi-Allah,,, Fana-Fi-Rasool .... Negation of Self,,, Unity with Superior being...

Everything is present in accepted Islamic Literature

Koran or sunnah is not literature to moslims. And orthodox school of thought only reject these terms when they are applied without any reference. Moslims don’t have problem with MGAQ claiming Ess or Mehdi because that’s pure literature and many have tried to fill in those shoes before MGAQ and after. The problems arises he tried to interpret something that is not present for 1300 years.


"Give up waiting for Mahdi- the personification of power. Go and create him." - Muhammad Iqbal

 

[khuramonline]

To understand the main beliefs and teachings of Islam/Quran, literal meaning is enough. Refer the verse about no compulsion in religion. But apparently to understand qadianism, exemplification is essential to figure out complex metaphors. Without it, ghulamiyah cannot be rationalized.



Koran or sunnah is not literature to moslims. And orthodox school of thought only reject these terms when they are applied without any reference. Moslims don’t have problem with MGAQ claiming Ess or Mehdi because that’s pure literature and many have tried to fill in those shoes before MGAQ and after. The problems arises he tried to interpret something that is not present for 1300 years.


"Give up waiting for Mahdi- the personification of power. Go and create him." - Muhammad Iqbal

Your points all ... acceptable...

But just on the basis of these points ... a peaceful, well educated and reasonable community CANNOT be declared non-muslim ... nor a blind hatred against that community can be favored...!!!

Orthodoxy rejects this and that ... then those things do not become unislamic. Majority Muslim beliefs are still unorthodox.

"Give up waiting for Mehdi" -Iqbal Basically this is also unorthodox point of view.

I also like unorthodox things...!!!

 

[apophenia]

Here's how Bukhari defined Muslim:-
"Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have." [Bukhari]

it refers to salat not believe. its from Book 8, and complete hadith goes as

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

 

[khuramonline]

it refers to salat not believe. its from Book 8, and complete hadith goes as

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

Thanks for sharing. It is not only the comprehensive definition of Muslim ... but also comes from authority which is superior to any Parliament.

And Ahmedies come upto this definition of Muslim.

Regards!

 

[apophenia]

Your points all ... acceptable...

But just on the basis of these points ... a peaceful, well educated and reasonable community CANNOT be declared non-muslim ... nor a blind hatred against that community can be favored...!!!

Orthodoxy rejects this and that ... then those things do not become unislamic. Majority Muslim beliefs are still unorthodox.

"Give up waiting for Mehdi" -Iqbal Basically this is also unorthodox point of view.

I also like unorthodox things...!!!

Don't get involved in that whole orthodox vs. unorthodox nonsense and it’s a waste of time and energy. Declaring them non moslims was a political move more than religious but the reservation raised theologically are vaild. Jammat was given a fair chance to prove their POV and Khalifatul Masih III shot his community down in flying colors. hating someone for their believes is religiously and morally wrong and every sane human will stand by the community if they are subjected to blind hatred. most Pakistanis’ don’t give **** about sects and believes. Just some FYI's in case you didn’t know

the NUZUL of Esa is not mentioned in Quran…. the traditions that related to the mahdi / mujadids are not in Sahih Bukhari or muslim…. Some of the biggest Anti Ahmadiyya Campaigners’ are ex Ahmadi and have nothing to do with Pakistan or Ordinnance XX .