Ahmadis in Pakistan

[apophenia]

In my honest assessment, a time shall come when dominants will openly declare the founder to be a full prophet. Qasoor Muslims ka ho ga k why they not originally accepted him just a masih while remaining within the framework of Islam.

The founder did call himself the prophet and his jammat acknowledged it way back in 1900s. Cant understand what you are trying to establish.

 

[khuramonline]

The founder did call himself the prophet and his jammat acknowledged it way back in 1900s. Cant understand what you are trying to establish.

Here we are talking of Full Prophet ... NOT Prophet.

What he might have declared himself in 1900s was prophet in maximum two ways:

1- that he claimed to be Promised Masih ... means Re-Arrival of Hazrat Issa .... since Hazrat Isa was a prophet so he should remain a prophet in re-arrival also.

2- In the capacity of Imam Mehdi,,,, his jamaat does consider him Qamar Muneer (i.e. Roshan Chand) and his Jamaat considers Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) as Siraj-e-Muneer i.e. (Roshan Sooraj)

So whatever be called,,, his that "prophethood" was not independent. Like light of moon is not independent. Light of moon depends on light of Sun. So his prophethood depended on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

His jamaat accepted him prophet in this sense. And this meaning doesn't go against Khatam-e-Nabuwat because Prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) is AUTHENTICATING the other prophethood. Meaning of "Khatam" is also authenticating stamp.

Therefore wo jo bhi tha ... os ka sooraj k saamne chand hone ka he claim tha.

Os ka khud Sooraj hone ka koi claim nahi tha.

Wo to accept kerta tha k jo bhi roshni jis ka wo dawa kerta hai ... os ne Sooraj se he hasil ki thi.

Aur .... Full Prophet ka meaning Sooraj hona hai.

Tum log kaise Musalaman ho ... ???

Apne Sooraj ki respect itni ziada kerte ho k kisi chand ko tolerate nahi ker sakte. Balke ulta ose ghalat advice dete ho k jao aik separate Sooraj ban jao...!!!

Regards!

 

[Kompromat]

Rehmat-al-lil-Alamin is unconditional.

And what did i say ?

Please do not impose your self made conditions.

Where is that condition that i have made?

Similarly First Kalima is also unconditional. "La-illaha illallaho, Muhammadur RasoolAllah". It's meaning is "There is no worthy of worship except Allah, Muhhammad is messanger of Allah."

Yes that is right.

So also please NOT include any condition in first kalima. Do Not read it's meaning as "Muhammad is HIS Last Prophet."

So you do not Believe that Prophet Muhammad SAW is the Last Prophet ?

Word "Last" is NOT the part of First Kalima. And the only condition to be a Muslim is First Kalima.

This is not the only condition - to be a Muslim you need to fulfill these Requirements.

1: Believe in Toheed
2: Believe in Risalat
3: Believe in Quran , Bible & Torah.
4: Believe in Angels & Jinnat (As another creature )
5: Believe in Qayamat & Resurrection.

A worst Kafir who just recites first Kalima, becomes a Muslim whose responsility is then taken up by Allah and Messanger of Allah. Who are you to impose any condition...???

Reciting kalima does bring you into Islam but it does not Make you a Muslim - you need to believe in all of those things that i have stated above - you need to accept it by talk and confirm it by your heart.

If word Last is the part of first kalima then kalma should be written in Arabic as "La-illaha illallaho, Muhammadur Aakhirul RasoolAllah"

You are too confused with it - the issue is NOT the Kalima - i will show you the real issue.

So Ahmedies have not invented any new thing.

Of course not they have Just corrupted the already existing concept !

It is you proud Muslims who have invented a new word in even first kalima...

Like what ??


Read This carefully

* Quran declares Prophet Muhammad SAW as the Last Prophet - clear as anything - if you do not believe in the Lastness of Prophet Muhammad SAW - you are defying Quran which of course is the word of Allah SWT and is the Basic Condition of faith.

Here------------

Islamic faith is the Final shape of Abrahmic faith which started from Adam and Finished at Muhammad (SAW).

We believe that the Prophethood has Ended as Islam revealed as the final message from Allah (Swt).

Here is a quote from Quran e majeed.

Quote٣٩&#65279 مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَآ أَحَدٍ۬ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمۡ وَلَـٰكِن رَّسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ ٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَۗ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَىۡءٍ عَلِيمً۬ا
Chapter 33 verse 040.

Translation.

(39) Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Urdu: (۳۹&#65279 محمدﷺ تمہارے مردوں میں سے کسی کے والد نہیں ہیں بلکہ خدا کے پیغمبر اور نبیوں (کی نبو&#1578 کی مہر (یعنی اس کو ختم کردینے وال&#1746 ہیں اور خدا ہر چیز سے واقف ہے


Note Prophethood is the 2nd most important pillar of an Islamic faith whoever disagrees with this or the Seal of prophethood is a considered a "Kafir" and this is the case with Ahmadis.

Seal of the Prophets (Arabic: خاتم اﻟﻨﺒﻴﻴﻦ‎ Khātim an-Nabiyīn) is a title given to Muhammad by a verse in the Qur'an. [Qur'an 33:40] However, there is a difference of interpretation within Muslims;

Muslims traditionally interpret this verse as meaning that Muhammad was the last prophet, whereas other small minority groups such as the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community hold an entirely distinct view.

Nonetheless, all Muslims agree upon that Muhammad received the final revelation in the form of the Qur'an for all mankind, for all time

Quote:False prophets In Islam
Main article: Prophets of Islam

According to most Muslim scholars Muhammad is the final Prophet, thus anyone who has emerged or will emerge to be a new prophet after Muhammad is considered a false prophet. Muslims consider Musaylimah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Rashad Khalifa, and Baha'ullah to be false prophets.

The Quran states that Muhammad is the "seal of the Prophets", the closure in a successive chain of prophets including Adam, Moses and Jesus.

Muhammad himself foretold of a number of false prophets who would come after him, stating, "In my Ummah, there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is no Prophet after Me."
Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45

Quote:From Ahmadi website:


Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is the leading Islamic organization to categorically reject terrorism in any form. Over a century ago, Ahmad(as) emphatically declared that “jihad by the sword” has no place in Islam. In its place, he taught his followers to wage a bloodless, intellectual “jihad of the pen” to defend Islam. To this end, Ahmad(as) penned over 80 books and tens of thousands of letters, delivered hundreds of lectures, and engaged in scores of public debates.

His rigorous and rational defenses of Islam unsettled conventional Muslim thinking. As part of its effort to revive Islam, Ahmadiyya Muslim Community continues to spread Ahmad’s(as) teachings of moderation and restraint in the face of bitter opposition from parts of the Muslim world.

Quote:Islamic view:

Warfare (Jihad bil Saif)


The primary aim of jihad as warfare is not the conversion of non-Muslims to Islam by force, but rather the expansion and defense of the Islamic state.

In the classical manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, the rules associated with armed warfare are covered at great length. Such rules include not killing women, children and non-combatants, as well as not damaging cultivated or residential areas.

More recently, modern Muslims have tried to re-interpret the Islamic sources, stressing that Jihad is essentially defensive warfare aimed at protecting Muslims and Islam.

Although some Islamic scholars have differed on the implementation of Jihad, there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression.

^ This is the difference.



This entirely distant view is that they have their own "False Prophet" which clearly defies the Word of God and Hadith and this is why they were Declared Kafirs in Pakistan's constitution , it didn't came cheap neither it was based on religious prejudice or hatred as few members try to prove that it was.

There were a series of discussions which lasted decades and it was proved that ahmadis were no Longer Muslims as they dont believe in the Lastness of the Prophet Muhammad SAW not only that they claim Mirza to be the Massih (2nd coming of Jesus ) and Mahdi altogether where as Islam clearly tells that they would be two different people

They agree with it or not its their choice , the word of God is there and so is their belief , its upto them to keep following their cult or do otherwise.

Read about Ahmadi belief from their own website . An Overview

^ This is the real problem - i repeat again - reciting kalima wont make you a perfect Muslim you need to follow Everything that Allah SWT has asked to in his Book the Holy Quran.

Read this:

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful



"Today I have perfected your religion for you, and have bestowed upon
you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender
unto Me shall be your way of life."


The Holy Quran, 5:3

"According to all available traditions, the verse above was
revealed at Mount Arafat in the afternoon of Friday, the 9th of
Dhul-Hijjah, shortly before the death of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be
upon him). Standing in prayer at Arafat on the 9th of Dhul-Hijjah, is
considered the most important part of Hajj."

This clearly means that The Religion as a Structure has been Completed and there shall be NO changes whatsoever.

The Consensus

The Muslim World League held its annual conference at Mecca, Saudi Arabia from 14th to 18th of Rabiul Awwal 1394 H (April 1974) in which 140 delegations of Muslim countries and organizations from all over the world participated.

At the conference, the League issued a declaration that the Ahmadiyya movement is outside the fold of Islam.

The Ahmadi View of Muslims

Qadianis disallow funeral prayers for Muslims.



Since the Qadiani belief is that all Muslims outside their community are non-Muslims, just like a Christian or a Hindu is a non-Muslim, the Qadiani leader Mirza Mahmud Ahmad forbade his followers from saying the funeral prayers of other Muslims. This instruction is given by him quite clearly and forcefully in his book Anwar-i Khilafat, published October 1916. At the end of the section where he deals with this question, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad writes as follows:

“Now another question remains, that is, as non-Ahmadis are deniers of the Promised Messiah, this is why funeral prayers for them must not be offered, but if a young child of a non-Ahmadi dies, why should not his funeral prayers be offered? He did not call the Promised Messiah as kafir. I ask those who raise this question, that if this argument is correct, then why are not funeral prayers offered for the children of Hindus and Christians, and how many people say their funeral prayers? The fact is that, according to the Shariah, the religion of the child is the same as the religion of the parents.

So a non-Ahmadi’s child is also a non-Ahmadi, and his funeral prayers must not be said. Then I say that as the child cannot be a sinner he does not need the funeral prayers; the child’s funeral is a prayer for his relatives, and they do not belong to us but are non-Ahmadis. This is why even the child’s funeral prayers must not be said. This leaves the question that if a man who believes Hazrat Mirza sahib to be true but has not yet taken the bai‘at, or is still thinking about joining Ahmadiyyat, and he dies in this condition, it is possible that God may not punish him. But the decisions of the Shariah are based on what is outwardly visible. So we must do the same thing in his case, and not offer funeral prayers for him.”

— Anwar-i Khilafat, page 93 of original edition; underlining is ours.
This book is available online at the Qadiani website in the collection Anwar-ul-‘Uloom, v. 3, no. 5 from the link Anwarul 'Ulum : Urdu Books by Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmud Ahmad Khalifatul Masih II - Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at Urdu Pages. See pages 150–151.

See original Urdu text below from the book Anwar-i Khilafat [Urdu 3].

It is quite clear and plain from these instructions that the Qadiani belief is that all other Muslims, including the children of those Muslims and even including those Muslims who believe in the truth of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad but have not taken the pledge to join the Movement, are unbelievers (kafir) and non-Muslims just as people of other religions such as Hindus and Christians.


"Ahmadi Source"

Qadianis declare other Muslims as kafir

Ahmadi kalima on Ahmadiyya central mosque, Nigeria,

Jammat e Ahmadiya declares Muslims as Kafirs.

http://ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm#u1


Now tell me what have you left to say?

Come up with references from the Quran or Hadith - your view has no credibility without proofs - your logic is laughable.

 

[sparklingway]

This is not the only condition - to be a Muslim you need to fulfill these Requirements.

1: Believe in Toheed
2: Believe in Risalat
3: Believe in Quran , Bible & Torah.
4: Believe in Angels & Jinnat (As another creature )
5: Believe in Qayamat & Resurrection.

That is what is normally taught as the most fundamental definition and of course that has been taught to you, but the Munir Report found a vast difference amongst scholars on the fundamental definition. They reached the following conclusion:-

Keeping in view the several definitions given by the ulama, need we make any comment except that no two learned divines are agreed on this fundamental. If we attempt our own definition as each learned divine has done and that definition differs from that given by all others, we unanimously go out of the fold of Islam. And if we adopt the definition given by any one of the ulama, we remain Muslims according to the view of that alim but kafirs according to the definition of every one else.

Hence, do not write this is a divinely sanctioned definition, when there is a lack of consensus.

As for the first kalima, there are hundreds of websites and thousands of books which cite Shi'ites having a different one as well, which they clearly reject.

The extremist Deobandis (including some of family members) declare Shias as non-Muslims, Kafirs and Wajiub ul Qatl all the time. This is a non-seller and hence not chanted all the time like they chant slogans against Ahmedis but we do know that there's a significant anti-Shia sentiment amongst the super right wing Deobandis.

Hence, the general lack of consensus and attempt at usurpation of the power of the Almighty to declare others as non-Muslims only leads to violent differences amongst groups and should be avoided. If the SSP comes to power, they'll declare Shias to be non-Muslims and they have never hidden this sentiment. The mullahs combined to get Ahmadis declared as non-Muslims. In the end you'll have members of just one single Madrassa and followers of a super-maulvi sb as the "constitutional" muslims whilst all others will be "fake" muslims.

 

[Kompromat]

Zafar ullah Khan was a proud qadiyani - many fellows try to show him as a hero - he was the guy according to many didn't participated in the Namaz e Janaza of Quaid e azam and kept sitting aside.

 

[Kompromat]

That is what is normally taught as the most fundamental definition and of course that has been taught to you, but the Munir Report found a vast difference amongst scholars on the fundamental definition. They reached the following conclusion:-



Hence, do not write this is a divinely sanctioned definition, when there is a lack of consensus.

Sparklingway - all of those so called "Conditions of faith" are directly linked to the Holy Quran and there is no "denial" to it.

The article you have just quoted does not say that they are not the conditions of faith - rather it argues about the difference in Opinion.

Conditions of faith are the most important factor - as you accept them by heart and declare them by speech.

I hope you know where i am coming from.

ESSENTIALS OF IMAN ( IMAN MUFASSAL)

There are seven (7) essentials to basic Islamic faith not believing in one of these essentials a person remained outside the fold of Islam.

( IMAN MUFASSAL)

"I believe in Allah, in His Angels, His Scriptures, His Prophets, the Day of Judgement, and in the fact that every thing good or bad (in the world) is pre-destined by Allah the Exalted, and in the resurrection after death."

In summary the Muslims believe in Allah, in His Angels, Holy Scriptures (Quran, true bible and Torah etc.), the Prophets, believe in the life after death, including interrogation in the grave, punishment in the grave, Distraction of this Universe one day (doom day) resurrection, the Day of Judgement, rendering account of ones deeds, and passing over the Siraat Bridge, believe in the existence of Paradise, and the believers will live in it for ever, believe in the existence of Hell, with its severest punishments, and that it will last for ever.

All the seven things stated in Iman Mufassal are quite evident from the sacred text of the Holy Qur'an, as well as, from the holy words of The Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him)

FIVE (5) PILLARS OF ISLAM

The Prophet (Peace be on him) has described five fundamentals article (pillars) of Islam.
Which are

(1) Believe in oneness of Allah

(2) Five time daily Salaat

(3) Payment of Zakat poor due

(4) Fasting in month of Ramadhan

(5) Hajj ( pilgrimage to Mecca).

The five (5) fundamental pillar of Islam do not include: belief in angels; the Divine Scriptures; the Day of Judgement and Fate (Taqdir) etc. The simple explanation is that the five pillars of Islam are supported by the Holy Quran and saying of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him). Therefore believing in them (7 essential Iman Mufassal) a muslim is obliged to believing in their saying i.e. Holy Prophet and Holy Quran.

Believes in the seven (7) essentials of Iman Mufassal from the core of his heart, and also affirms these to be true with his tongue but fails in performing the prayers; giving the Alms (Zakaat); observing the Fasts; not going for the holy pilgrimage (Hajj) remain a Muslim, but a big sinner, and disobedient to Allah. A person of this description is called Faasiq (transgressor). Such a person will be taken into task and might get salvation after undergoing punishment for the sins.

1. THE BELIEFS OF MUSLIMS REGARDING ALLAH

Muslims should have the belief about Allah:

1. Allah the Most Exalted is One.
2. None is worthy of worship and devotion except Allah.
3. There is no partner of Allah.
4. He Knows everything; nothing is hidden from Him
5. He is All Powerful and Mighty.
6. It is He who created the earth, the sky, the moon, the sun, the stars, the angels, human beings, genies and the entire universe.
7. He gives life and death. In other words, life and death of all creatures take place by His command.
8. He feeds all His creation.
9 He does not eat, drink, or sleep.
10. He is Self-existent from eternity and will last till eternity.
11. No one has created Him.
12. He has no father, no son, no daughter, no wife, or other relations. He is above all such relationships.
13. All depend on Him. He does not depend on anyone, and He has no needs.
14. He is Peerless. There is nothing like Him. Nothing resembles Him.
15. He is free from all imperfections.
16. Unlike His creatures, He does not have hands, legs, nose, ears, face and shape.
17. After creating the angels He has appointed them to carry out specific tasks, and to manage the affairs of the universe.
18. He sent messengers for the guidance of His creatures; to teach people how to follow the true religion, do good deeds, and forbid them from the evil things.

2. THE ANGELS (MALAAIKAH)


Angels are a creation of Allah, the Almighty, created from light (NUR). They are invisible to us. They are neither male nor female. They do not disobey Allah and do not commit acts of sin. They are always busy in doing their task, assigned to them by Allah. The angels are many . No one except Allah know their exact number. We, however, know that there are many angels. Four of them are very famous and close to Allah.

The first one of them is Angle Jibra'il (Gabriel) who brought Allah's Scriptures, Messages, and Commands to the prophets. The second is Angle Israfil who will blow the trumpet on the Day of Judgement. The third is Angle Mika'il who is appointed to manage the rains and to deliver livelihood to Allah's creatures. The fourth is Angle Izra'il, responsible for ending the life of Allah's creatures.


3. THE BOOKS OF ALLAH (The Divine Scriptures)


The Divine Scriptures (Books of Allah) are big and small. They were revealed to the Prophets. The big ones are called the Books, and the small ones are known as the Scrolls (Sahifas). The four famous Divine Books, and who are the Prophets upon whom these were revealed?
1. The Holy Taurat (Torah) was revealed to Prophet Musa (Moses) (Peace be upon him)
2. The Holy Zabur (Psalms) was revealed to Prophet Da'ud (David) (Peace be upon him).
3. The Holy Injil (The New Testament) was revealed to Prophet Isa (Jesus) (Peace be upon him), and the
4. The Holy Qur'an, was revealed to our Holy Prophet Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).
The exact number of the Divine Scrolls (Sahifas) is not known. Nevertheless, some of them were revealed to Prophet Adam (Peace be on him), some to Prophet Sheeth (Peace be on him) and some to Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), peace be on him. Apart from theses there are other Scrolls that were revealed to some other prophets.


4. THE MESSENGERS OF ALLAH (peace be on them)

The Allah's Messengers (Rasuls) are human beings, and Allah's servants. Allah appointed them to convey His messages to the other human beings. They were truthful; never lie, and did not commit sin. They showed miracles on Allah's commands; convey His messages in full, without adding, or leaving out anything from the orders of Allah. Nor did they withhold any of His messages. The Prophets (Nabi) were also human beings, and Allah's servants, They convey the commands of Allah to His beings; were truthful and never told a lie, nor committed any sins. They did not subtract or add anything in the commands of Allah, nor did they hide any Divine orders.

There is a minor difference between a Messenger (Rasul), and a Prophet (Nabi). A Rasul is that Messenger, who is given a new Shariat (Divine Law) and a new Book. All Messengers are also known as Prophets, whether or not they are given a new Shariat (Divine Law). Thus, a Nabi may followed the previous Shariat and the Book. The prophet were appointed only by Allah's choice; meaning that there were no role for human effort, or intentions in this regard. This bestow, solely, depends on Allah's will.

Many Messengers and Prophets came to this world only Allah knows their exact number. A Muslim should believe and testify that all of them were true and right Messengers of Allah. The first Prophet was Prophet Adam (Peace be on him)., The last Prophet was The Holy Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (Peace be on him). The Muslims believe that the appointment of the Prophets and Messengers ended with The Holy Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (Peace be on him).

No new Prophet will come until the Day of Judgement. After Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him), whosoever claims to be a prophet, is a liar. Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him) is the most exalted and glorious of all the Messengers and Prophets. He, too, is Allah's servant and obedient to Him. He is the most exalted after Allah, the Almighty.

5. The Day of Judgement

The most single certain and uncertain event in this world is related to the death, everyone certain that he or she will die one day but they are not certain when they will die. It is a fundamental belief of a Muslim that one day this universe will perish on the day of Qiyamma (Doomed day) when Angel Isra'fil (Peace be on him) will blow the trumpet. Its sound will be so frightening and intense that it's shock will kill every living thing and every material will be shattered and destroyed.

That day all human beings and living souls Shall die; the entire universe will perish. Mountains will fly like cotton flakes, and the planets and stars etc. will disintegrate and fall down. The Day of Judgement (Qiyamat) is about to come. But no one known its exact time. except Allah. Our Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him) has foretold some signs of Qiyamat. By observing those signs, nearness of the Day of Judgement can be determined. they are:

1. Sins begin to increase in the world.
2. People begin to disobey their parents, and become harsh towards them.
3. There is breach of trust.
4. Singing, dancing, and revelry is in abundance
5. The new generation begins to find fault in their forefathers.
6. Uneducated, and the ill-educated become the leaders.
7. Shepherds etc. and lowly placed people begin to build lofty buildings.
8. Incompetent and unworthy persons are appointed to high positions.
When the above things happen, take that the Qiyamat is near.

The Signs of the Age of Fitnah (Trials) By Justice Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani

The Second Coming of Sayyidna Isa (Jesus Christ)

6. THE FATE (TAQDIR)

Allah knows the good and bad of every thing, and He has full knowledge of His creation even before He brings them into existence. This prior knowledge of Allah is known as Fate or Destiny. Nothing good or bad is beyond Allah's knowledge.

7. Resurrection after death

The On the Day of Judgement Angel Israfil (Peace be on him) will blow the trumpet for the second time when all things would re-emerge. The human beings, too, will come to life and presented before Allah, the Almighty, in the Plain of Resurrection (Maidan-e-Hashr). All shall be called to account, and good and bad deeds Will be paid for. The day when all this takes place is called 'Day of Reckoning' (You-mul-Hashr) i.e. when all are gathered; 'Yau-mul-Jaza' i.e. the Day to repay and 'Yau-mul-Hissab' i.e. the Day of Reckoning.

Regards:

 

[sparklingway]

Zafar ullah Khan was a proud qadiyani - many fellows try to show him as a hero - he was the guy according to many didn't participated in the Namaz e Janaza of Quaid e azam and kept sitting aside.

Often used as a rallying point by ideology hijacking mullahs. I posted it just a day or two back. Here's that post.

Shabbir Ahmed Usmani lead the official and public funeral of the founder, the founder had requested him personally earlier.

Here's a picture of our first Foreign Minister, Zafrulla Khan sitting in the back of the funeral as he refused to participate in a congregation whose leader deemed him an infidel and liable to death. He later participated in the private funeral offered at the residency by the family members. It has been labeled by historians as a "Shia funeral". The family members had no objection to Zafrulla's participation nor did they call him an infidel.

Also remember this:-

Professor Ghafoor Ahmed and Mian Muhammad Tufail said they did not pray Jinnah’s funeral prayer nor did Maulana Maududi.

 

[sparklingway]

Please read Pages 215 to Pages 218 of the Munir Report for the discussion on the definition of a Muslim.

You should reach a conclusions based on your own study, for yourself, but there is a certain level of lack of consensus on the fundamental definition.

The one cited by you is what is described by the Prophet is having "Belief".

Here's how Bukhari defined Muslim:-

"Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have." [Bukhari]

Difference between what defines Belief, being a Muslim and being a Momin is then there. There are glaring differences between what the terms means, imply and define. A person with an apish intellect might not be able to understand why there should be a difference and what the difference means, but anybody with a level head can understand the difference between the terms.

It is not the job of legislature to define such terms and label others as non-Muslims. There is little point in arguing with people who are adamant at denying other human beings basic rights and asserting their opinion which results in second grade citizenship and harassment for others.

 

[Kompromat]

Often used as a rallying point by ideology hijacking mullahs. I posted it just a day or two back. Here's that post.

Shabbir Ahmed Usmani lead the official and public funeral of the founder, the founder had requested him personally earlier.

Here's a picture of our first Foreign Minister, Zafrulla Khan sitting in the back of the funeral as he refused to participate in a congregation whose leader deemed him an infidel and liable to death. He later participated in the private funeral offered at the residency by the family members. It has been labeled by historians as a "Shia funeral". The family members had no objection to Zafrulla's participation nor did they call him an infidel.

Also remember this:-

1: Zafarullah was Not a shia so how can be that funeral called a shia funeral ?

I am not concerned with Mullah views right now - i have a different view about zaffarullah not participating in Qaid's Funeral.

As an active Ahmadi-Muslim he was the Amir of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Lahore during the period 1919 to 1935. He served as Secretary to Khalifat-ul Masih II, the second successor of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad at the occasion of Shura (Advisory Council) for the first time in 1924 and did so on a further seventeen occasions.

In addition, he was a member of the delegation which represented the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community at the All Parties Conference held in 1924. In 1927, he acted successfully as representative counsel for the Muslims of the Punjab in the contempt of court case against the 'Muslim Outlook'.

* PS : According to Qadiyanis - you me and other Muslims including Quaid are "Kafir" & since zaffarullah was a high profile figure and a devoted Qadiyani he didn't participated in the Funeral for this very reason.

Qadianis declare other Muslims as kafir

Its yet to be seen if he took offense of Maulana shabbir Usmani's claim but would it matter?

He was a qadiyani who didn't participated in Quaid's funeral-and later participated in the funeral at home.

The one who has written what you have posted needs to improve his knowledge - zaffarullah was not a shia but an Ahmadi leader.

 

[sparklingway]

1: Zafarullah was Not a shia so how can be that funeral called a shia funeral ?

It is called a "Shia" funeral as it was offered mostly by family members who were Shia and it was led by a Shia imam and offered according to Shia rituals. I have the name of the Imam in some obscure book, it's not normally mentioned.

Also, don't tell me that Jinnah had become a Deobandi as the right wingers always try to portray him as. Hijacking history is a crime.

I am not concerned with Mullah views right now - i have a different view about zaffarullah not participating in Qaid's Funeral.

PS : According to Qadiyanis - you me and other Muslims including Quaid are "Kafir" & since zaffarullah was a high profile figure and a devoted Qadiyani he didn't participated in the Funeral for this very reason.
Qadianis declare other Muslims as kafir

I've heard this time and again, but their official sanctions deny these claims time and again as well. At least they (Ahmedis not Lahoris) don't have an official sanction denouncing all others as non-Muslims or Kafirs. Also, diffrentiate between Lahoris and Qadiyanis who are put under a blanket of Ahmedi in general.

Website shows the fight of beliefs b/w Qadiyanis and Lahoris. Both are accusing each other of abdicating of basic duties and moving away from the "righteous" path. Just like Shia vs Sunni, dare I say? (at least in the general way)

Its yet to be seen if he took offense of Maulana shabbir Usmani's claim but would it matter?

He was a qadiyani who didn't participated in Quaid's funeral-and later participated in the funeral at home.

Would you participate in a funeral behind a person who calls for a capital punishment for you, especially when you have had the chance to offer the funeral in peace?

He offered the funeral that was offered "earlier" in Mohatta Palace. He then sat behind the general populace in the awami funeral. Did he not offer Jinnah's funeral? He did.

Could he have offered it today? No.

He was a "Muslim" when he participated in the movement and died a "non-Muslim". Shame on us !

The one who has written what you have posted needs to improve his knowledge - zaffarullah was not a shia but an Ahmadi leader.

You misunderstood it.

 

[Kompromat]

It is called a "Shia" funeral as it was offered mostly by family members who were Shia and it was led by a Shia imam and offered according to Shia rituals. I have the name of the Imam in some obscure book, it's not normally mentioned.

Dear my point was - Zaffarullah was not a shia neither his family - he was an ahmadi the whole time - why did historians tagged it as a Shia funeral ?

Also, don't tell me that Jinnah had become a Deobandi as the right wingers always try to portray him as. Hijacking history is a crime.

I dont care who Jinnah was - at least he was not an ahmadi.

I've heard this time and again, but their official sanctions deny these claims time and again as well. At least they (Ahmedis not Lahoris) don't have an official sanction denouncing all others as non-Muslims or Kafirs. Also, diffrentiate between Lahoris and Qadiyanis who are put under a blanket of Ahmedi in general.

They have been playing their little confusing game for a while now - but we have proofs and they are enough.

Website shows the fight of beliefs b/w Qadiyanis and Lahoris. Both are accusing each other of abdicating of basic duties and moving away from the "righteous" path. Just like Shia vs Sunni, dare I say? (at least in the general way)

Both of them are non muslims according to Islamic convention held in 1974 in Saudi Arabia - they can do whatever they want within themselves- its not our issue.

Would you participate in a funeral behind a person who calls for a capital punishment for you, especially when you have had the chance to offer the funeral in peace?

If i was true - i would not care about a Mullah and Participate .

He offered the funeral that was offered "earlier" in Mohatta Palace. He then sat behind the general populace in the awami funeral. Did he not offer Jinnah's funeral? He did.

He was a renowned figure - i still maintain he made a Mistake.

He was a "Muslim" when he participated in the movement and died a "non-Muslim". Shame on us !

Of course - we missed a chance to bring him back to the Right path-because of our negligence his soul would be in hell - shame on us.



Regards:

 

[sparklingway]

Dear my point was - Zaffarullah was not a shia neither his family - he was an ahmadi the whole time - why did historians tagged it as a Shia funeral ?

It was not arranged by Zafrulla. He just attended it. It was organized by family according to Shia rituals as they were Shias. Imam was Shia, offered according to Shia beliefs and practices and hence alled "Shia funeral". Now do you get it?

I dont care who Jinnah was - at least he was not an ahmadi.

Had he been one, would you disown him as the founding father and remove his picture as your avatar?

They have been playing their little confusing game for a while now - but we have proofs and they are enough.

May I present proofs of Deobandis declaring Shias as non-muslims and vice versa? This whole you're not Muslim, I'm Muslim give is illogical. If they assert such views, I'll have to defend you lot as well

Both of them are non muslims according to Islamic convention held in 1974 in Saudi Arabia - they can do whatever they want within themselves- its not our issue.

I seem to care about it.

If i was true - i would not care about a Mullah and Participate .

He had already participated in the funeral. Not this one, but it was a funeral where the Imam had no problems to his participation and did not call him an infidel or ask for capital punishment.

PS : Liaquat Ali Khan did not participate in the Shia funeral and he stood outside the room where it was offered.

He was a renowned figure - i still maintain he made a Mistake.

As you see fit.

Of course - we missed a chance to bring him back to the Right path-because of our negligence his soul would be in hell - shame on us.

You can assert the truthfulness of your faith, and he asserted his. He's probably in hell according to you, and probably you'd be in hell according to many other people.

No point in sanctioning heaven and hell. That is the duty and the right of the divine, ain't it?

 

[Kompromat]

@sparklingway.

I am reading Multiple views in Munir report - some of them are a little contradictory to each other depending on the school of thought.

But here is my take on it.

Prophet Muhammad SAW has been Described as the last Prophet till the Qayaamat.

* Read my earlier Post.

Also Foretold by HIM (PBUH) that there would be 30 great lairs among my Ummat.

When He (PBUH) said that they would be from My Ummah it means that they will bron as Muslims and will claim to be a Prophet later on-same what Mirza did.

"In my Ummah, there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is no Prophet after Me."
Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45

Now - for a moment forget the take of Mullah's on this matter - we have Got Quran and hadith right in front of us - we have the Example of Muslema kazzb - we already know this phenomenon of people claiming to be a Prophet of Allah.

Based on Quran & Hadith - Mirza does not fit anywhere in the picture but on the dark side of history only.

This man also claimed to be a Mahdi on what grounds & shall people follow him ?

Is he any different from Mirza?

We can understand it for ourselves and we dont need anyone to tell us the truth- its right infront of us - you may understand as you want - but taking all this in consideration and taking all what Mullahs think out of consideration, i still come to the conclusion that Qadiyanis are Kuffar and out the fold of Islam for defying the basic tenants of Islam & The Quran and Sahih hadith as a whole.

Regards:

 

[sparklingway]

Let's agree to disagree but I hope we learnt something from each other. Aasim stated something beautful on the above posted video:-

If anything this incident shows that freedom of speech, secularism work and dictation of speech, blasphemy laws don't.

Did any one of you went off and became his followers due to his revelation? Blasphemy laws would've prevented him to come on TV and reveal himself but those 5 teenagers behind him, would've still followed him in private.

He used his freedom of speech to make his declaration. The speaker used his freedom of speech to shut him up. If any blasphemy law would've been used and this guy was punished or dragged to jail, only Islam would've been the loser and this guy would've become a martyr.

Freedom, always works.

Freedom always work (not just blasphemy laws but generally not "constitutionally" defining other s as non-Muslims as well). You suppress somebody, he'll gain more followers as he'll narrate accounts of harassment as being symbols of his truthfulness.

Religious freedom to all. Say no to state religion.

 

[Sparten80]

Without getting bogged down into symantics or a religious discussion. I think its important for all Pakistani's in light of what we've seen in the last few years to come to a new realization and more important an appreciation of our differences.

That we respect, will protect and honour all of our minorities irrespective of faith. It is our minorities that have often been some of the most patriotic and loyal Pakistani's. And many have done great things for our beloved Pakistan. It was the Tharparker Sindhi community (Pakistani Hindus) that reported and contacted the Pakistani army subsequently halting and slowling the indian invasion themselves into that sector. Btw, dont ever ask them if they are Pakistani's, an Urdu speaking friend of mine learned the hard way when he asked one that very question, the answer, son before you and your parents came to this country, we were here for 3000 years since the time of the Indus Valley Civilization, if anything, we are the first Pakistani. Lets just say, my friend shut his mouth fast!

There have been many similar cases, the Ismaili community of Pakistan has invested so much in business and has undertaken considerable developmental projects in the country as well as have established the best medical school all on their own. The Christian community within it has some of the most patriotic, pleasant and dignified individuals of the country, lets not forget the sacrifices made by Cecil Choudry to the PAF; they have also helped their co-religionists from Iraq(Assyrian and Chaldeans) integrate better within Pakistan despite being from different sects of Christianity. Pakistan's Parsi community augmented in recent years with Zorastrians from Iran has done tremendous charitable works, business projects, entrepreneurs and have produced some the best journalist in the country; eg. Ardeshir Cowasjee. Even Pakistan's once thriving Jewish community has done several charitable projects and outreach services for the poor and desolate. There are many other minorities, such as the affluent and educated Bahai community, the diligent Zikri community of Balochistan etc.. etc...

I have a rough idea of some of the differences and alternative practices that followers of the Ahmadiya sect have. I may not fully understand, I may not even agree with many of their practices as i do with many people including members of my own fait. But to each is their own, only Allah will decide and in the case of Pakistan, the constitution will also decide. People need to be tolerant of each others views and respect each others difference or at least do so in a cordial manner if need be.

In the greater sphere of things, I have this to say, they are my fellow countrymen, have sacrificed and died for our country and contribute much to it. Pakistan's first nobel peace prize winner in physics belonged to that community, and im honoured and pay my respects to him for that. I do have several friends who belong to this minority, and have to say, they have been very trusting and loyal to me. They also performed very well academically and excelled in school.

We are all Pakistani's, Irrespective our backgrounds and faith, I appreciate the diversity of Pakistan. I have nothing but love for all Pakistani's especially our minorities.