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Ahmadis in Pakistan

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One more thing to be considered.
That is the worst example to be considered. It is OUR country that is being messed up due to this intolerance and becoming officially and apartheid state by law.

All the UAE newspapers had big headlines "Ahmediyya Mosque attacked", only our country was bound by its unfair laws.
 
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We do not debate religion here. I've repeatedly said they may believe in an Alien to be a Prophet and call it Islam, they would simply be wrong, not sentenced to jail.

I would be the first person to support 100% liberty for Qadiyanis provided they reach an agreement with Muslim leaders which could address all issues.

If their leaders will keep sitting in UK and addressing people over the satellite TV , that is not going to solve any issues.

Though i believe that violence exists towards ahmadis the only way to solve it is dialogue.


BTW i was not discussing religion but giving out POV's of both sides since the matter is religious there has to be some references.
 
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I dont think so.

Islamic View of Mirza



VS

Ahmadi View of Mirza






Decide for yourself :coffee:

It looks like Person A is stating that he has no assistant while Person B is insisting that he is assistant of Person A.
 
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I would be the first person to support 100% liberty for Qadiyanis provided they reach an agreement with Muslim leaders which could address all issues.

If their leaders will keep sitting in UK and addressing people over the satellite TV , that is not going to solve any issues.

Though i believe that violence exists towards ahmadis the only way to solve it is dialogue.


BTW i was not discussing religion but giving out POV's of both sides since the matter is religious there has to be some references.
Who are Muslim leaders? What is their worth of existence in front of a country? No way, we're not bound by any Muslim leaders, we have to be bound the constitution and that comes from the Parliament.

We don't need Mullahs to certify how tolerant we should be.
 
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That is the worst example to be considered. It is OUR country that is being messed up due to this intolerance and becoming officially and apartheid state by law.

All the UAE newspapers had big headlines "Ahmediyya Mosque attacked", only our country was bound by its unfair laws.

Asim those unfair laws are the backlash of what ahmadis did to Islam.
They have not created a new religion but changed ours :)

But whatever they believe in is not my business really as as you can see the Muslims have consensus of them being out of us.

This is the worst punishment in itself isn't it ?
 
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Even if this is treated as an Ahmedi lie, there was no call to jail Zaid Hamid on the basis of his lie, just that he lost his supporters.

In fact that is the best example. That if a person is caught lying they will ultimately lose their support.

Exactly, my sentiments. I am all for religious tolerance but this issue is too multi dimensional. and we are just defaming each other without actually figuring out the core issue.
 
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Who are Muslim leaders? What is their worth of existence in front of a country? No way, we're not bound by any Muslim leaders, we have to be bound the constitution and that comes from the Parliament.

We don't need Mullahs to certify how tolerant we should be.

Asim it is a difference of opinion your view of a system of governance is different than many others .

Religion should be a business of the state or not thats a whole new debate that we may have some other time.

Right now i am focusing on "The possible solutions" to this issue.
 
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Asim those unfair laws are the backlash of what ahmadis did to Islam.
They have not created a new religion but changed ours :)

But whatever they believe in is not my business really as as you can see the Muslims have consensus of them being out of us.

This is the worst punishment in itself isn't it ?

Nobody can change your religion, since religion is something you have in your heart.

The only thing that got screwed up out of these laws is Pakistani society. It is because of laws like these we routinely kill minorities (all kinds), we abuse our women, we are passing fatwas and a whole other bunch of things that aren't pretty.

Ever wondered why the Pakistani is so much more ready to kill than anyone else? Its because the culture of intolerance comes from the top-down.
 
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Asim it is a difference of opinion your view of a system of governance is different than many others .

Religion should be a business of the state or not thats a whole new debate that we may have some other time.

Right now i am focusing on "The possible solutions" to this issue.
Those people who believe Religion should be a business of the state, are ridiculing Jinnah who clearly said.

You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State
NOTHING. No ifs and buts, but nothing.

There is only ONE solution. Repeal these laws. No modification, no pussyfooting on the issue. Repeal them, the hudood ordinance, the blasphemy laws.
 
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Those people who believe Religion should be a business of the state, are ridiculing Jinnah who clearly said.


NOTHING. No ifs and buts, but nothing.

There is only ONE solution. Repeal these laws. No modification, no pussyfooting on the issue. Repeal them, the hudood ordinance, the blasphemy laws.

OK lets suppose we do all that what you have just mentioned .

Just explain it to me "How exactly" these measures will stop violence
against ahmadis ??
 
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Read the ref please I wont bother replying to you since you didnt went to the source first.

*EDIT: PS: The Arabic word for seal is khatam which by a change of vowel can also be read as khatim, meaning "that which puts the seal". Both words are derivatives of khatama, which means both to end or conclude something or to put a seal in order to indicate such an end or conclusion (see, e.g., Lisan al-'Arab, Qamus, Aqrab al-Muwarid).

Have you bothered visting the sources Ive provided repeatedly....Over and Over again and everybody seems to ignore them!!

Dude The sources I provided are famous writtings of Hazrat Mujadid Alif Sani and Hazrat Hakim Tirmazi and in those both of them have clearly mentioned that "Khatam-e-nabooyat" doesnt mean Last Prophet and hakim tirmazi goes to the extent of saying that if somebody believes that, than he is an illeterate and a fool......Now dont tell me you and Mullahs understand Islam better then these sanits and mujadadins!!

khatamul awliya(page:341, specially last paragraph)
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Maktobat Hazrat Mujadid Alif Sani(page:188, specially first paragraph)
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(Note khatamul Awliya is in arabic so get it translated from some online arabic english translation tool)
 
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The reactionary republic

Here’s a question: How come whenever there’s a drone attack (in which most of those killed generally are extremists), or a case of perceived obscenity or blasphemy surfaces, street corners are at once filled with burqa-clad women and bearded men chanting slogans like ‘Death to infidels’? But none of these fine, sensitive Muslims can be seen protesting when there’s an attack on innocent civilians —Ahmadis or others — by the extremists?

Where do they vanish? Isn’t the gruesome and inhuman exhibition of violence and coercion so gleefully demonstrated by monsters like the Taliban and their twisted sectarian allies akin to a moral sin and misdeed far graver than what my loud burqa-clad sisters and bearded brothers are always agitating against? Of course it is.

But it seems in these protesters’ book of social, political and moral ills, the word terrorism cannot be ascribed to savages who in the name of Allah and Islam slaughter men, women and children, as if trying to construct a bloody ladder to the promised paradise from all the bodies and limbs that their attacks leave behind. Religious parties in Pakistan that claim to uphold Muslim aspirations and interests, along with the many cranks that we have to suffer on our TV screens, have hardly shied away from the irresponsible act of condoning barbarism. They do so by at once ascribing a terrorist attack on innocent civilians to the diabolic conspiracies being hatched against the holy republic of ours by ‘foreign hands’ and ‘anti-Islam forces’.

With their instant apologies for the extremists these parties and men have allowed their moral state of being to plunge and hit the same dark ideological abyss where lie boiling the extremists’ mind-set and delusions. But are religious parties the only ones indulging in such shameless demagoguery?

Many Pakistanis routinely continue to deny the fact that the monsters behind all ‘faithful’ barbarism cutting this country into bits are the mutant products of what our own state and society have been up to in the past 30 years or so. For years a convoluted narrative has been circulated by the state, the clerics, schools and now the electronic media: Pakistan was made in the name of Islam (read, a theocratic state).

Thus, only Muslims (mainly orthodox Sunnis, shall we say?) have the right to rule, run and benefit from this country. ‘Minority’ religions and ‘heretical’ sects living as Pakistani citizens are not to be trusted. They need to be constitutionally, socially and culturally isolated. Parliamentary democracy can’t be trusted either. It unleashes ethnic forces, ‘corruption’ and undermines the role of the military and that of Islam in the state’s make-up. It threatens the ‘unity’ of the country — a unity based on an unrealistically homogeneous understanding of Islam (mainly concocted by the state and its right-wing allies). Most of our political, economic and social ills are due to the diabolical conspiracies hatched by our many enemies (especially India, Israel and the West).

The bad news is that such beliefs are symptomatic of a society that has started to respond enthusiastically to the major symptoms of fascist thought. Symptoms such as a xenophobic exhibition of nationalism; disdain for recognition of human rights; identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause; supremacy of the military (might); obsession with national security; intertwining of religion and government; disdain for intellectual thought and the arts, and an obsession with crime and punishment.

Have not many Pakistanis willingly allowed themselves to be captured in all the macho and paranoid trappings of the mentioned symptoms? Does this not point at a country ripening and readying itself for an all-round fascist scenario?

Unfortunately, this is the scenario that some among us talk about as they speak of imposing the system of the righteous caliphs or the sharia, or whatever profound buzzwords adopted to explain Pakistan’s march towards a wonderful society of equality and justice. Such thoughts mean little. They only amount to a fantasised system either based on ancient musings of tribal societies or on glorified myths of bravado.

Not for a moment are we ready to stand back and look at what we have made of ourselves. We call ourselves ‘moderate Muslims’, and yet applaud or quietly tolerate the hate-spewing claptrap that pours out from our mosques and TV screens. We cheer about the fact that Pakistan is one of the very few democratic Muslim countries with a constitution, and yet we will not speak a word about clauses and sections in the same constitution that have triggered violence and repression against women and sanctioned a religious apartheid that only allows an orthodox, pious Muslim democratic rights to rule the country or run in an election.


For how long will we keep hiding behind a fragile mask of religiosity and patriotism, a mask that covers our faces every time we confront a situation where our views and actions (especially regarding faith) are questioned? We do not debate. We react and then huddle up behind our flimsy and lopsided historical and national narratives about what being a Pakistani and Muslin is all about, cursing the world for our ills, looking out for infidels and heretics among us, or for scapegoats in the shape of media-constructed punching bags.

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Smokers? Corner: The reactionary republic
 
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qadyaniat is based on lies churned out by Mirza gulam ahmed in patronage with Britishers and they have a habit of over exaggerating to gain world sympathies

Yeah right!! and the socalled "muslims" are very innocent......

Dude find me one community in pakistan which is peaceful to an extent that even after large scale persecutions and hatred........they stay peaceful!!

If Ahmadis were to exaggerate anything it would have been so easy dude.......U dont even have an idea how much ahmadiyya community is appreciated in the whole world(obviously not in the "muslim" pakistan).....Pakistan would face so much pressure from so many sources that it would have been very hard for the government to take it!!!

But ahmadis have values fortunately!
 
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Reference to this statement? That is indeed unfortunate, but that is their right to believe so while it is your right to believe they are kafirs. In the context of Pakistani law, this should not matter.

Sure :

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According to Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, it is no longer sufficient for the existing Muslims to believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad and all the prophets before him.

Now they must also declare that they believe in the prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as well. Otherwise they cannot remain Muslims but become just like those Jews and Christians who believed in the previous prophets but failed to accept the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

“The article was elaborately entitled — ‘A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God.’

The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely that ‘those who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah’.

Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims.”

pages 135–136 of the 1965 edition. In the 2007 online edition at Islamic Books | Online Islamic Library - Al Islam Online see page 144.


“…not only are those deemed to be Kafirs, who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai’at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs.” (pages 139–140 of 1965 edition; page 148 of online 2007 edition)


Ahmadi source
Qadianis declare other Muslims as kafir


So what do you say Asim , you and i both are Kafirs now -- Mubarik ho:partay:
 
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define Islamic creed in its essence.

will like you to define it in light of Ordinance XX

Why do you think Ordinance XX not being challenged by anyone ?

even calling Ahmadis place of Worship can make you get fatwas from every side & on TV Anchors are trying best to get defame & call upon mass murder of Ahmadis, in short people are afraid, yes people are afraid!!!
 
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