Ahmadis in Pakistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

for the bold part:
This is a whole new debate whether state should have right to decide about religion or not.

In a country like Pakistan, where we have so much religious diversity, it would be impossible for the State to satisfy everyone if it got into the business of 'determining religion' - all the various sects have differences in interpretation on some issue or the other, so the best thing for the State to do is to stay out of religion, and let people practice their faith as they wish.

Moreover, if it is a law then you should not be calling it crime.

Slavery and segregation were once 'laws' as well, and accepted by large parts of society, but just because such reprehensible practices had 'legal cover' does not make them any less immoral or 'criminal' in terms of what they represent.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

People ofcourse can do alot, provided they are willing to, but it aint happening.

Changing peoples attitudes through discourse is precisely what this thread and other discussions on the web and elsewhere seek to do.

This is but a start.

 

[Xeric]

Changing peoples attitudes through discourse is precisely what this thread and other discussions on the web and elsewhere seek to do.

This is but a start.

May be i was unable to put it through, but what i wanted to say was that yes it is indeed ONLY the people who can make it happen. The Women Bill, the Balochistan Package etc happened because people tried and then broke the threshold hidden behind that 'taboo'. So this time too, it would be the people, dont expect anything from the govt. But unfortunately the feelings involved here are so strong that alot of effort would be required to make this become a reality, so therefore i dont see it happening any time soon. Though efforts like being done here and all over the internet is a guud start.

The only thing that i require is that qadiayinis should be barred from those restrictions but the identity issue is indeed difficult to end. What i see happening in future is free qadiaynis doing whatever they like just like any other non-Muslims here and that's it - working, worshiping (in their own place of worship whatever they chose to call it), having no fear in revealing their belief, being treated equally and living freely.

 

[apophenia]

according to Ahmedis Rabwa is a place like Jantul Baqeeh (A graveyard in Madina where the family of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and other companions are burried) for them. According to them it will be risen to the heavens after the end of the world. It is like a paradise on earth This is what i have heard about Rabwa

Any Ahmedi dies they bury him there if he was paying "Zakat" to his ahmedi community. It is near Sargodha in Pakistan.

" Bahishti Maqbara" is in Qadian not Rabwa.A Musi can only be buried in the graveyard of paradise and to be Musi, a Ahmadi has to pay around at least 10% of his monthly income (this is apart from the general donation) and leave at least one tenth of his estate on his death on the community to obtain the certificate of commendation.

They dont pay Zakat, every Ahmadi has to pay 6 1/4% of his monthly income to the community administration which is called "Chanda Aam" or general donations.

 

[apophenia]

Also Ahmadi's do believe in Finality of Prophet Mohammed according to their website.

Finality of Prophet hood | Hadhrat Muhammad (PUBH) the Last Prophet - Al Islam Online

Support there claim without directing to a site run by the Ahmadi Community. I hope you have concept of authentic hadīth/reference over weak and fabricated one.

When it is said to them, "Do not [create] corruption on the earth", they say, "We are the reformers." Of assurance, they are the corrupt ones, but they do not realize it. And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed", they say, "Should we believe as the fools believe?" No! They are the fools, but they do not realize it.

- Sūrah Al-Baqarah

 

[apophenia]

Furthermore the question about Zaid Hamid's religion was never that he supports a wrong religion. The question was that he lied about being a Mainstream Muslim, while he obviously didn't believe in the Khatm-e-Nabuwat and he was caught red-handed.

No punch intended but the same argument can be leveled against the Ahmadiyya Community.You should read Muhammad Iqbal commentary on Ahmadiyaa to figure out the issue. They do not believe in Khatam-e-Nabuwat and declare all other infidels.


" Allah has reveakled to me that anyone who does not follow you and does not enter into an allegiance with you is disobedient to Allah and deserving of hell."( Book Tadhkira by MGA)


"All those Moslims who do not enter into all allegiance with the Promised Messiah, where they have heard his name or not, are infidels outside the Circle of Islam." (Ayena-Sadaqat)

 

[Kompromat]

Who are we (Muslims) According to Ahmadis.

Anyone professing the Kalima is a Muslim and cannot be declared a disbeliever of Islam by anyone else. However, a distinction is made if someone explicitly claims to be against Ahmadiyyat.

Yet this distinction does not put anybody outside the fold of Islam.However, a person who knowingly rejects Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim is a kafir (infidel) in the sense of forming a rebellion against God's revelation

I didn't know that ahmadis thought that all Muslims were Kafir if they dont believe in Mirza.

 

[Tiger Prowling]

Who are we (Muslims) According to Ahmadis.



I didn't know that ahmadis thought that all Muslims were Kafir if they dont believe in Mirza.

Than i will happily call myself K****, better than calling my self Ahmadi.

 

[Kompromat]

Read the views on Ahmadis and Shias on The Sunni Forum.

Shia and Ahmadi heretics mentioned in hadith and by early scholars

These people are a bit extreme.

Also Ahmadi's do believe in Finality of Prophet Mohammed according to their website.

Finality of Prophet hood | Hadhrat Muhammad (PUBH) the Last Prophet - Al Islam Online

I dont think so.

Islamic View of Mirza

Muslims consider him an apostate and believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was one of the 30 false claimants to prophethood about whom the prophet Muhammad SAW had warned Muslims 1400 years ago.

VS

Ahmadi View of Mirza

Ahmad was a prophet (with all the qualities of a prophet like Jesus) but subordinate and deputy to the Prophet Muhammad. The Messiah, Imam Mehdi and Mujaddid of the 14th Islamic century, and the second coming of Jesus.

It is believed that the 30 false claimants to prophethood of whom Muhammad had warned came before Ahmad's time.

Decide for yourself

 

[Awesome]

Who are we (Muslims) According to Ahmadis.



I didn't know that ahmadis thought that all Muslims were Kafir if they dont believe in Mirza.

Reference to this statement? That is indeed unfortunate, but that is their right to believe so while it is your right to believe they are kafirs. In the context of Pakistani law, this should not matter.

 

[Awesome]

No punch intended but the same argument can be leveled against the Ahmadiyya Community.You should read Muhammad Iqbal commentary on Ahmadiyaa to figure out the issue. They do not believe in Khatam-e-Nabuwat and declare all other infidels.

Even if this is treated as an Ahmedi lie, there was no call to jail Zaid Hamid on the basis of his lie, just that he lost his supporters.

In fact that is the best example. That if a person is caught lying they will ultimately lose their support.

 

[Awesome]

I dont think so.

Islamic View of Mirza



VS

Ahmadi View of Mirza





Decide for yourself

We do not debate religion here. I've repeatedly said they may believe in an Alien to be a Prophet and call it Islam, they would simply be wrong, not sentenced to jail.

 

[Kompromat]

One more thing to be considered.

The Muslim World League held its annual conference at Mecca, Saudi Arabia from 14th to 18th of Rabiul Awwal 1394 H (April 1974) in which 140 delegations of Muslim countries and organizations from all over the world participated.

At the conference, the League issued a declaration that the Ahmadiyya movement is outside the fold of Islam.

 

[Comet]

In a country like Pakistan, where we have so much religious diversity, it would be impossible for the State to satisfy everyone if it got into the business of 'determining religion' - all the various sects have differences in interpretation on some issue or the other, so the best thing for the State to do is to stay out of religion, and let people practice their faith as they wish.

There goes the concept of "Islamic" Republic of Pakistan, down the drain.

Slavery and segregation were once 'laws' as well, and accepted by large parts of society, but just because such reprehensible practices had 'legal cover' does not make them any less immoral or 'criminal' in terms of what they represent.

Yeah True

 

[apophenia]

This means that they are not allowed to profess the Islamic creed publicly

define Islamic creed in its essence.

Ahmadis in Pakistan are also barred by law from worshipping in non-Ahmadi mosques

Praying behind Muslims declared Haram by MGA. and it has nothing to do with the law.

"I believe that those who follow the lead of non-Ahmadis (Muslims) in prayers, it is not permissible to hold their funeral service. Similarly, those who have given their daughters in marriage to non-Quadianis and died without repenting, it is not permissible to hold their funeral service." (Al-Fazl, Qadian)


Why do you think Ordinance XX not being challenged by anyone ?