Afzal khan and treachery of Shivaji

[Charon 2]

People can only guess since there is no historical consensus.

And Ghaznavids are referred to as Turks only. Never heard of Turko-Iranian.

Mahmud Ghaznavis mother was Persian and they used Persian as court language. He and his sons were totally hated by the Turkmen nomads. So much that they killed his son during a battle

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

And what did Muhammad Ghori of Afghanistan do to the chivalrous and honourable Rajput Prithviraj who set Ghori , a war prisoner free after defeating him in the First Battle of Tarain ?

He came back a year later with a larger army , defeated the Rajputs , took him to Afghanistan and killed him there. This was how he returned the Rajput chivalry and honour.

What happened to Afzal Khan was well deserved. I guess by the 17th century Hindus had understood that these invaders do not understand the language of honour and chivalry.

@Pak-one

As a well wisher bro , let me just make a point that Pashtuns/Afghans need to start looking into the future. A lot of things happened in the past for all peoples and civilisations but we have to move on. This is especially true for educated Afghans like you.

Afghan economy in growing rapidly and your homeland just had a massively successful and peaceful elections despite all the odds. These are the things that Afghans should be proud of rather than some invasions or related events that happened centuries ago.

Best of luck to you and all Afghans for a better and more prosperous future.

Point noted bro

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Ghori was a Turk and that's why Turks were his descendants. The names like Aebak, Iltutmish are Turkish names.

Aibak was his slave from central asia. The most famous tribe which was branch of ghoris, was suri. The first pashto poet was amir kror suri. There are mentions of both ghoris and suris during hindu shahi dynasty.
Many pashtun tribes trace their origin to ghauris. They were perhaps not pashtuns in the begining but got assimilated.
Also story is passed down that persian prince shah hussain ghuri fell in love with bibi mato, a pashtun. So ghurids were either tajiks or pashtuns.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Basically, being Afghan he hates Pakistanis and tries to bond with Indians as close as possible for whatever it takes.
In this thread too he tries to portrays Pushtun generals being local of mainland Hindustan just like Marathas and evil Mughals are invaders and foreigners waring both Pushtuns & Marathas.

In his short vocabulary;

Mughals= Pakistan (outsiders)
Afghans&
Marathas= Afghanistan, India (Brothers)

I request Indians to pls have a special treatment with @Pak-one bcz he is one of you

I do not consider mughal empire equalent of Pakistan, from where you are getting these ideas?. Mughals were central asias, turko-mongols, so uzbeks have better claims on them. Their capital was Agra so mughal empire is part of history of india, to small extent pakistan. Its funny that you people consider yourselves inheritors of mughals.
I didnt open this thread to bash hindus. I wanted this topic to be discussed, doesnt matter who takes side of who as long as posts are relevant to topic.
Now you have assumed that by going harsh on @nuri nutt i am licking the *** of indians. The thing is he derails every thread with his non-sense, ANI genes, fair skin dalits and other bakwas. He has ruined the history section. Thats i told him to shut his mouth when he said that he is going to bash hindus.

 

[dawn_news]

I do not consider mughal empire equalent of Pakistan, from where you are getting these ideas?. Mughals were central asias, turko-mongols, so uzbeks have better claims on them. Their capital was Agra so mughal empire is part of history of india, to small extent pakistan. Its funny that you people consider yourselves inheritors of mughals.
I didnt open this thread to bash hindus. I wanted this topic to be discussed, doesnt matter who takes side of who as long as posts are relevant to topic.
Now you have assumed that by going harsh on @nuri nutt i am licking the *** of indians. The thing is he derails every thread with his non-sense, ANI genes, fair skin dalits and other bakwas. He has ruined the history section. Thats i told him to shut his mouth when he said that he is going to bash hindus.

Don't drag me in, you started ASI bs in this thread after your lies were caught. Just to divert the discussion. Anyway its clear as day you being Afghani hate Pakistanis or lets say punjabis. And consider Indians as allies. Anyway about bashing hindus, i said verify your sources before we start to bash hindus. As it turned out you only posted one side of story and incomplete.

And read your op again, you basically said how tall Afzal was so no way midget Shivaji could have defended him which is rediculous. You and other Afghanis bash punjabis 24/7, here you are received quite well compared to how they treat us in their forums. At least no one insults you and your family here.

 

[Missile]

Nobody can change the nature. Typical type

 

[INDIC]

Aibak was his slave from central asia. The most famous tribe which was branch of ghoris, was suri. The first pashto poet was amir kror suri. There are mentions of both ghoris and suris during hindu shahi dynasty.
Many pashtun tribes trace their origin to ghauris. They were perhaps not pashtuns in the begining but got assimilated.
Also story is passed down that persian prince shah hussain ghuri fell in love with bibi mato, a pashtun. So ghurids were either tajiks or pashtuns.

My point was Turks would have allowed only Turks to take power, during those days Turks, Pashtuns and Mughals fought for their own dominance over each others since Slave Dynasty of Qutubuddin Aibak succeeded Ghori not in a power struggle. Aibak and Iltutmish are pure Turkish names.

 

[Jzaib]

Long live Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj ! I hope you have done enough homework by reading history.

Afzalkhan was put to rest in a tomb built upon orders of Great Maratha King Shivaji Maharaj. While his courtmen questioned on the decision, the Great King answered, with his (Afzal') death enemity has ended; he needs to be buried with full dignity and respect after performing religious rituals under Islam.

may b it was the guilt ....

 

[SarthakGanguly]

may b it was the guilt ....

For you it was the guilt. For us - chivalry.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

For you it was the guilt. For us - chivalry.

Marathas didnt give respect to the enemies they despised. You must have heard najib khan rohilla, marthas destroyed his tomb and dispersed his bones in open, it is mentioned in indian sites.
Afzal khan might not be a saint but he was recognized as good military general. Marathas had to get rid of him some how. After his murder, marathas truely emerged as power.
Every thing is fair in love and war. Red wedding !

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Marathas didnt give respect to the enemies they despised. You must have heard najib khan rohilla, marthas destroyed his tomb and dispersed his bones in open, it is mentioned in indian sites.
Afzal khan might not be a saint but he was recognized as good military general. Marathas had to get rid of him some how. After his murder, marathas truely emerged as power.
Every thing is fair in love and war. Red wedding !

There was perhaps a reason for this,in 1759 marathas attacked delhi.Najib was defending commander .His army was defeated and he was captured.However he was given safe passage and not harmed.When abdali invaded however he quickly joined him with thousands of rohillas and guns and even convinced the nawab of oudh to join him.These forces were decisive in the maratha defeat.So marathas had bad blood with najib,though desecrating a dead man's grave is wrong.Shivaji atleast never did this,he gave afzal a proper islamic burial acc to his view 'the dead have no enemies'.Also shivaji never dishonoured women,even those muslim women captured in raids.However same can't be said of later maratha sardars always who were a greedy,self-serving and rapacious lot by and large.

 

[asad71]

Prithviraj never captured ghori,ghori was carried off the battlefield by a loyal guard after his army was defeated.Prithviraj lazily allowed him to regroup.This is a common misinformation spread by revisionist overnationalism based on the fictional exxaggerations of chand bardai's romantic poetry,who was court poet of prithviraj.
And ghorids were east iranian tajik descent.
What happened to afzal was indeed well deserved.

Thank you for the first part. But about the treachery and deceit of Shivaji,how can you condone such cowardice?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Thank you for the first part. But about the treachery and deceit of Shivaji,how can you condone such cowardice?

So afzal khan commits treachery and ur ok with it,and shivaji is in the wrong.One adapts to the world he lives in to survive.And the world shivaji lived in was full of him being faced by many much stronger existential threats,his actions must also be judged on that context.If he fought head on he would face certain annihilation,so why would a man do that?He didn't always have the luxury of honour fighting as he was for bare survival at that point.Some prefer to be honourable losers,others choose victory at any cost -each have their own philosophical viewpoint.
As for the looting part,the truth is this-maharashtra is not an agriculture rich area like the gangetic basin.Land revenue formed the basis of revenue for a state in those times.On top of it ,this already barren area was being devastated by constant movement of armies.Shivaji could never garner enough revenue from this wreck to maintain his standing army and navy.Thus mass raiding was a way to simultaneously replenish the treasury,assure loyalty of sardars who were often fickle and greedy and keep mughal forces dispersed and diluted,forced to guard many avenues against raids tying down forces.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

There was perhaps a reason for this,in 1759 marathas attacked delhi.Najib was defending commander .His army was defeated and he was captured.However he was given safe passage and not harmed.When abdali invaded however he quickly joined him with thousands of rohillas and guns and even convinced the nawab of oudh to join him.These forces were decisive in the maratha defeat.So marathas had bad blood with najib,though desecrating a dead man's grave is wrong.Shivaji atleast never did this,he gave afzal a proper islamic burial acc to his view 'the dead have no enemies'.Also shivaji never dishonoured women,even those muslim women captured in raids.However same can't be said of later maratha sardars always who were a greedy,self-serving and rapacious lot by and large.

There was perhaps a reason for this,in 1759 marathas attacked delhi.Najib was defending commander .His army was defeated and he was captured.However he was given safe passage and not harmed.When abdali invaded however he quickly joined him with thousands of rohillas and guns and even convinced the nawab of oudh to join him.These forces were decisive in the maratha defeat.So marathas had bad blood with najib,though desecrating a dead man's grave is wrong.Shivaji atleast never did this,he gave afzal a proper islamic burial acc to his view 'the dead have no enemies'.Also shivaji never dishonoured women,even those muslim women captured in raids.However same can't be said of later maratha sardars always who were a greedy,self-serving and rapacious lot by and large.

Shivaji was smart and treacherous. Many people have not studied biography of sher shah suri, he was also smart and treacherous unlike lodhis. He outsmarted mughals due to that.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

So afzal khan commits treachery and ur ok with it,and shivaji is in the wrong.One adapts to the world he lives in to survive.And the world shivaji lived in was full of him being faced by many much stronger existential threats,his actions must also be judged on that context.If he fought head on he would face certain annihilation,so why would a man do that?He didn't always have the luxury of honour fighting as he was for bare survival at that point.Some prefer to be honourable losers,others choose victory at any cost -each have their own philosophical viewpoint.
As for the looting part,the truth is this-maharashtra is not an agriculture rich area like the gangetic basin.Land revenue formed the basis of revenue for a state in those times.On top of it ,this already barren area was being devastated by constant movement of armies.Shivaji could never garner enough revenue from this wreck to maintain his standing army and navy.Thus mass raiding was a way to simultaneously replenish the treasury,assure loyalty of sardars who were often fickle and greedy and keep mughal forces dispersed and diluted,forced to guard many avenues against raids tying down forces.

Wrong approach.

Firstly because the Truth is not absolute.

Even if Afzal Khan would have been a saintly general, Shivaji's act is correct with respect to Indians. We are talking about War. Abdul Shahi rule would have been disastrous (as it was in Bijapur).

Wars are not dependent on morality and love, on the contrary it is based on the exact opposite of it. When Shivaji was hiding Aurangzeb sent his forces commanded by this same general to destroy all the temples in and around the area, to force Shivaji to come out. He chose to continue to hide till he gained strength.

Had Shivaji not done what had to be done, probably some other asad from Maharashtra would be claiming Shivaji to be a coward and Afzal Khan to be a hero, Varanasi would be called Muhammadabad and Vrindavan would be known as Muminabad among many other (these names were changed actually) etc.

@Indischer