After Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on full-tech transfer pa

[punit]

What benefits we got by procuring from Hal by paying 100cr more then OEM . OEM is costing 350cr but Hal one is 450cr

HAL is a piece of crap .. governed by absolutely filthy s** of b** .. why blame Sukhoi or Russia for the mental retardness of HAL leadership.

 

[Chanakyaa]

I don't know too much about the Rafale deal, except that we ordered 36 against the initial requirement of around 130 or so. Why do you feel the eventual order will be as high as 150?

Let me make a few points.

- We signed a 7.8B euro deal for 36 with 50% offsets and out of that Dassault is required to export 3B euros worth of business to other countries from India. Out of 7.8B euros, 1.7B is exclusively for integration of new India specific equipment. ( For Just 36 ? )

- "The Rafale is a major project for India and France. It will pave the way for an unprecedented industrial and technological cooperation, including 'Make in India', for the next 40 years. Agreeing on the technicalities of this arrangement obviously takes time, but we are on the right track", Hollande told PTI in an interview ahead of his three-day visit beginning Sunday. ( For Just 36 ? )

- Rafale is our best bet , the First Line of Defence AGAINST China. Its the ONLY thing they cannot match ( till 2022 ) and we shall still have something comparable when the J20s arrive.

- They have ALREADY Hinted rafale MII for 90 Jets, which might follow the same Template as we ordered MKIs , C 130s , T 90s etc.

As Parik mentioned , The package includes ( yet again.. For Just 36 ? ) :

• LCA MK2 and AMCA Help
• Safranised Kaveri to be LCA Mk1A
• Thrust Vectoring to Astra
• RAM coating and technology behind it for application to LCA, AMCA, Su30 MKI and FGFA
• RBE2 AESA tech and code and application to all IAF inventory (a direct competition to 2052) via TOT to Uttam AESA

http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...india-inc-to-get-3-bn-euros-worth-biz/412366/

Well, i feel Su 30s itself cost close to $100 Million a piece. So Money is not a real irritant.

 

[Taygibay]

- We signed a 7.8B euro deal for 36 with 50% offsets and out of that Dassault is required to export 3B euros worth of business to other countries from India. Out of 7.8B euros, 1.7B is exclusively for integration of new India specific equipment. ( For Just 36 ? )

Perfect except for this :

required to export 3B euros worth of business to other countries from India.
​

The Rafale GIE A.K.A" Rafale international @ http://www.rafale.co.in
is required to either do work for Indian entities or generate revenue in
India or both according to a scale value pre-established by the buyer.

That scale is what most folks don't get. A plant such as DRAL's own
will produce either assembly or parts and assembly Rafale related &
civilian. The work for Rafale is worth X yearly which is at ratio one
on our scale so amount in rupee equals amount in offset. It's possible
however that the scale stipulates the civilian work done there to be at
half a ratio point so only half of revenues from it count towards offsets.
Depending on countries, ownership of corp could also dilute by share
the value in the scale [ Dassault getting only 49% or worth from DRAL's $ ].
That's actually rare as vendors shun the factory route in that case.

For you see, there are also points up in the scale, higher ratios for the
things the buyer finds more desirable. Establishing a design center or
granting / providing formation, any work in research locally executed
could rank 1.25, 1.5 and 2 ratios respectively. The first gives jobs at
better than screwdriver giri and the medial is cheaper than commercial
market value and may not be offered outside such a deal at all. As for
the latter, a double value for its cash worth includes patent revenues?

Then there's a third class at even higher ratios of 3 and maybe up that
includes ToT ( yes, only a sub-part of offsets ) and engineering design
work including it and strategic information pathways and state secrets.
A country rich but without water could pay 3B € for the geo-localization
of an endless water reserve under it that a good well could then tap?
In fact that last class reveals to us that offsets are more than money &
mil stuff. The scale itself gives a view of the buyer's policies and intents.

In this case example, mine above not India's real scale in this deal, one
could notice that giving work to Indians is at even ratio and fixing Kaveri
obviously gets over 3. That makes sense if A- a couple thousand jobs at
DRAL won't make a dent in Indian unemployment and B- not losing face
on Kaveri is worth pretty much anything in symbolic face saving exercise.

Roughly, that is how offsets work and you know what ( I'll keep the full explain
for whomever answers in the Rafale In thread ), pure ToT never never happens!!!


A correction would be nice because you are right on the idea of amounts
not corresponding to a single buy which is also revealing in and of itself.

Good day to you and all, Tay.

 

[My-Analogous]

Were you Sleeping when India REJECTED F18s ( and Then F16s ) while going ahead for 36 ( actually its over 150 ) Rafales ?



Logistics Pact <> Defence Pact for Weapons

Apply Logic, Even Israel CANNOT access F22s , Pakistan CANNOT access J20 !

Who say's we don't have access of J20. The thing is that we don't want it because it don't fit in our situation

 

[saurav jha]

I believe India will eventually opt for F-35 rather than PAK-FA keeping Indian increasing proximity towards US in mind. One may see more such excuses to leave the project altogether.

Never. Believe or not it's not China who will see us as threat once we get strong it's USA who will do anything to keep us third world country.

 

[NakedLunch]

What is the different from asking Russia to sell they Aviation defense industry to India ? If Money is only thing smelling, Russia can also sell their engines technology to China...no nations want to create a future competitor...Indians are just delude themselves.

I think India is more likely to shift slowly over to only Western technology. The USA has a plan for India and it wont work if India has military relationship with Russia.

 

[faithfulguy]

Well, There is a reason why TOI articles are Shit.
If there was one factual error, i could have corrected it but then...

The Core issue Does Exist. India need Bang for the Buck.. We didnt Spare the French.. why should Russians be any Different.



Su 27 and MKI ? Well i only only wonder why u left Su 35 from the same family which is far more closer to MKI than Su 27 !

It's likely that at the current fighter procurement rate. Somalia will have stealth fighters before India.

Never. Believe or not it's not China who will see us as threat once we get strong it's USA who will do anything to keep us third world country.

India will never be strong enough to challenge the US except with Indian superpower videos.

 

[Super Falcon]

Poor Information. Money Rules the World.
But..its ook... I can understand that being "ELITE" member does give certain limitations , so let me help you with NO Parallels :

Brahmos
Submarine Reactor
Cryo Engines

Even Green Pine was sold by Israel despite reservations by the US.

Examples are history tell me what Russia is selling you today if u go against Russian allies like China in South China Sea as u said money rules China is biggest exporter than of arms from Russia than u if I go by your saying money rules Russia will support bigger exporter than smaller exporter like u compared to china top of it u are joining hands with Russian enemy

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

I think India is more likely to shift slowly over to only Western technology. The USA has a plan for India and it wont work if India has military relationship with Russia.

Russia certainly acknowledge India's intention and they're not stupid to TOT they advance fighter jet to a nation that tilt toward Russia's foe, India negotiation tactic is to squeeze the last drop of juice from weapon suppliers to maximized themselves with the offer but these suppliers have their own red line beyond that they will give middle finger and tell India to keep their money.

If India tries to piss Russia beyond the acceptable level, Russia can then turn around and cooperate with China and Pakistan at the expense of India such selling JF-17 engine, SU-35 and S-400 SAM for China. So I don't think India has so much leverage to get TOT from Russia beside keep financing the T-50 and keep their mouth shut.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

India only ordered 36 rafales for now due to 3 reasons

1. The plane is dam expensive at over $135 million each with weapons loads
2. The MOD wanted to Push IAF to accept 123 Tejas mk1 & 1a anf felt massive order for rafele would kill IAF thirst for Tejas
3. IAF still undecided about FGFA from Russia. so delibertely kept order at $8.5 billion to save funds for potential FGFA order in 5 years time.

self-consolation

 

[Dungeness]

And the Sukhoi "mistake" might just be the repeat of Mig-21 "mistake" in 1960's.

 

[Chanakyaa]

And the Sukhoi "mistake" might just be the repeat of Mig-21 "mistake" in 1960's.

Well, in a nutshell, Migs have served well, really well. But Here what is being said is :

- India has Upped the EXPECTATIONS , We need something ATLEAST comparable to West ( Engines, Avionics Stealth )
- We need a GENUINE outcome of the Investments
- We need Not just the Jet, but TECHNOLOGY

We did it with : LCH , ALH , Frigates , Destroyers we want the same for Gen V Jets.

It's likely that at the current fighter procurement rate. Somalia will have stealth fighters before India.

IGNORED

 

[asad71]

No one will give full TOT , Parrikar and Modi know this. They are creating conditions to drop the FGFA deal and blame Russia.

- and thus justify induction of F-35 - something which had been thrust down India's throat by Secy Hillary Clinton. And thus also a cure the headache this faltu / bogus ac caused. Nobody was buying this. Only dumped on allies here and there. But IAF provides the major dumping jhola / basket. Relax PAF!

 

[帅的一匹]

Exactly, it's way better than anything Pakistan has at its disposal at present.
Even in the future Su-30s will be the real threat to PAF because it can be upgraded with better and bigger radars, avionics and missile packages. All this is possible due to the size of this aircraft.
Sukhoi 30s are extremely well designed aircrafts that will be relevant untill at least mid 2040.

It's not stealthy, no matter how good it is.

 

[NakedLunch]

Russia certainly acknowledge India's intention and they're not stupid to TOT they advance fighter jet to a nation that tilt toward Russia's foe, India negotiation tactic is to squeeze the last drop of juice from weapon suppliers to maximized themselves with the offer but these suppliers have their own red line beyond that they will give middle finger and tell India to keep their money.

If India tries to piss Russia beyond the acceptable level, Russia can then turn around and cooperate with China and Pakistan at the expense of India such selling JF-17 engine, SU-35 and S-400 SAM for China. So I don't think India has so much leverage to get TOT from Russia beside keep financing the T-50 and keep their mouth shut.

We are going back to the days of the Cold War abut there will be a reversal in previous alliances. This time it will be the USA and India who will be facing off the Russians and the Chinese, with Pakistan in the Sino-Russian sphere. A few years ago denying this alignment may have made sense or was arguable but there are just too many signs that that is the way things are going. Its becoming inevitable. Neither India nor Russia trust each other the way they once did. The Indians seem happy about that, doesnt mean the Russians are. They have done a lot for India over the last 70 years. More than USA did for Pakistan and the Russians didnt demand much from the Indians, unlike the do more we Pakistanis had to do for America. Modi has made his intentions very very clear. He wants India firmly in the Western camp as a strategic ally. There is no way the Russians will accept that. The Indians are in full reversal mode with their Russian relationship. They have to do this if they want a seat at the table with the Americans.