‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Patriots]

Jab Great Mujahid nay sab ko muslman kar he diya tha tu phir Sufis mangoo lainay aay thay?

بدعت پھیلانے آئے تھے ۔۔۔ صوفیت کا اسلام سے کیا واسطہ کیا تعلق ۔۔۔ یہ تو اسلام کے گلشن میں ایک اجنبی پودا ہے ۔۔۔ جو رہبانیت کے پانی سے پروان چڑھا ہے ۔۔

 

[Patriots]

And therefore Salman Taseer deserved to be killed by his own bodyguard and his killer made into a hero? Is this the kind of blood thirsty religion TTP & their supporters want to impose on Pakistan?
Please enlighten me under which Quranic edict or Hadith, any person who wants to remove the Balsphemy law should be killed with or without a trial?

Certainly this is not the Islam that I believe in; thus I am a kafir deserve to be killed by the Lashkar Jhangvi heroes of pure Islam??

I didn't say that Mumtaz Kadri is right or wrong doing his act ... This will decide Allah ... M not in its favor ... But I would add one thing ... As Mumtaz Kadri was not right to kill him same thing was applied on Salman Taseer ... He had no right to remove the law ..

 

[mjnaushad]

No Sir Quran and Hadees are both books of guidance and law Sir and we have to implement those Laws Sir


Sir your choice we will bring Islamic system even if we have to come through blood bath we will not back off from the system of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW traitors can choose to go to their master USA and eat their ****

There will always be blood bath for power....and this wont be the first one in Islamic history.

 

[niaz]

I didn't say that Mumtaz Kadri is right or wrong doing his act ... This will decide Allah ... M not in its favor ... But I would add one thing ... As Mumtaz Kadri was not right to kill him same thing was applied on Salman Taseer ... He had no right to remove the law

.

The law can only be removed thru a legislation passed by the National Assembly. The law has not been removed and is very much in existence.

Salman Taseer only said he wanted to remove the law. When qualify your admission that Qadri was wrong with a 'But'; it basically mean that you are indirectly agreeing that anyone, who merely wants to remove a law (remember the law is still there) is justifiably killed.

It shows how little some of my countrymen value human life! Our founding fathers must be turning in their graves; they never imagined that the country that so many people gave their life to create would turn into a hell hole of bigotry where even educated people think it is okay to shed human blood for the mere suspicion of someone wanting to change a law! Would you also think it okay to kill all those MNAs who would vote for the removal of the blasphemy law if it ever came up for debate in the National Assembly?



[/QUOTE]

بدعت پھیلانے آئے تھے ۔۔۔ صوفیت کا اسلام سے کیا واسطہ کیا تعلق ۔۔۔ یہ تو اسلام کے گلشن میں ایک اجنبی پودا ہے ۔۔۔ جو رہبانیت کے پانی سے پروان چڑھا ہے

[/QUOTE]

With the Wahhabis on the ascendance thanks to the bigot Zia (May he rot in hell for eternity) shrines of the Sufi are being bombed and their followers killed without mercy.

If you care to read history, spread of Islam in present day Pakistan & Kashmir is primarily due to the efforts of the Sufis.

In my opinion all Deobandis & Wahhabis should offer two rakats Nafal to bless the Sufis. For without the Sufis arriving in India following the conquests of Ghaznavi & the Ghoris and converting the local population with their exemplary devotion to Islam and pious character; most of the modern descendants of the indigenous people of the region such as Rajputs, Gujjars, Jats, Mians, Sheikhs etc; would still be ringing bells at the temples during the puja.

 

[Dubious]

@Hyperion welcome!

 

[haviZsultan]

I am very much agreed with you ... I just want to correct the history ... And actually Islam is spread in India by Muslim Mujahideen ... not by Sufis ... Local non-Muslims were very much inspired by their best of conduct ... And entered into the circle of Islam ..

Don't tell me you are Zarvan number 2....

 

[haviZsultan]

Urdu linguistic didnot do that...
read Faiz ahmed faiz...
he was a hafiz e quran and caal himself secular...
he replied all fatwas against him...
these are bunch of Mullas who had done all this to protect interests of bloody Politicians....
a bunch of paid mullas who had done this would suffer...
well the one who know a bit of urdu or history of secularism knows it's meaning very much..
here dividing women is not allowed...
seculars meant that to give equal rights to women...
this point of pak seculars was intermixed with Russian secularism...
Politians are land lirds having many many villages...
this land reforms made them mad..
Urdu did never mis understood meaning of secular....
it's politiaans who are creating problems to keep their business furnished...



point is use of force...
and force was never a cause for this religion to be spread....
Muhammad Bin Qasim never forced a single man to convert into muslin neither do aby other Muslim empror did sooo.....
Europe admit that...

I suggest you take your diatrib... sorry, complaints to the author then because I did not write this article. I give a link to my site when I post one of mine. Don't tell me you are another MQM supporter.

What happens? I speak urdu and it was the only language taught to me at birth though in my love I adopted others. Does it make a difference he claims so and so about urdu writers or is this about a holy mission to defend all speakers of urdu?

In either case you are right. The author makes an allegation without proof. I think he meant the utterly different news items found in urdu newspapers compared to english.

Dear Ibn Rushd was a philospher he wasn't a Islamic scholar ... So he would be out of Islamic discussion ... Second thing Ahle Hadith don't interpret to religion on their own way ... They interpret the Islamic ideology in the light of Quran & Hadith ..

In either case we were the ones who produced him. Don't try to bash through our history just to perpetuate that Wahab was the only scholar who came. And he was seen as a scholar by most of the major people there at that time. Mu'tazili is an entire school of thought akin to secularism. This is who we are. Not terrorists.

 

[Sugarcane]

Don't tell me you are Zarvan number 2....

He apparently looks more refined version - you can say Z++

 

[haviZsultan]

He apparently looks more refined version - you can say Z++

You know the funny thing is how not one of them speaks to the Americans about their strongly-held (degenerative) beliefs. They say those guys are the source of all issues then what has it got to do with us? They create the issues in our home countries, we argue with the Americans that its not just the mullahs who are wrong but American policy too and in the end we get in trouble for criticizing big bully America. Zarvan and Patriot will both be dancing in the rain hand in hand with no concern whatsoever while we will be harassed into oblivion for challenging US policy.

Maybe I dislike the Mullahs but anyone in my shoes would. This declaring any other muslim kaffir and then using that to justify their killing may never end until either these terrorists are dead or the rest of us. It is the most horrible concept to ever come from Hejaz and it came from Wahabis. Wahab was probably Dajjal. I understand these guys don't want to blow things up but they are part of the issue. Why they can't accept anyone elses views and why do they declare anyone murtid or kuffar who disagrees. Its a huge issue.

 

[Sugarcane]

No body forged Hadees Hadees existed from the day HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW announced his PROPHETHOOD Quran and Hadees both existed at the time of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW and was continued in the time of 4 great caliphs and after ward too

Let's see what's your opinion about this "Sahih Hadith"

Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should erase that and narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me -and Hammam said: I think he also said:" deliberately" -he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.

Sahih Muslim - The Book of Zuhd and Softening of Hearts: Book 56, Hadith 7702

Blue part clearly saying that Prophet (PBUH) order the companion erase what they wrote other than Quran. Red part - Narrator says "I think he also said"???.

....I have left among you the Book of Allah, and if you hold fast to it, you would never go astray. And you would be asked about me (on the Day of Resurrection), (now tell me) what would you say? They (the audience) said: We will bear witness that you have conveyed (the message), discharged (the ministry of Prophethood) and given wise (sincere) counsel. He (the narrator) said: He (the Holy Prophet) then raised his forefinger towards the sky and pointing it at the people (said):" O Allah, be witness. 0 Allah, be witness," saying it thrice.....

Sahih Muslim - Book 15, Hadith 159

A very important occasion of Hajj, thousands of companions were present and Prophet (PBUH) didn't mentioned any Hadith (Which as per you existed at that time) but said i have left Quran.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Wrong thread!

 

[Gentelman]

I am very much agreed with you ... I just want to correct the history ... And actually Islam is spread in India by Muslim Mujahideen ... not by Sufis ... Local non-Muslims were very much inspired by their best of conduct ... And entered into the circle of Islam ..

yeah thats the point bt in Islam spreading there is a great sacrifises and work og Sufis....
you can't neglect their role....
When you talk about Mujahideed people just think off force...
and Mujahideen didnot attacked here to conquer this land...
it were pirates and Raja Dahir's acts.....
people were inspired by this religion...
Overe all those people were true muslims not like us....

 

[Zarvan]

Let's see what's your opinion about this "Sahih Hadith"



Blue part clearly saying that Prophet (PBUH) order the companion erase what they wrote other than Quran. Red part - Narrator says "I think he also said"???.



A very important occasion of Hajj, thousands of companions were present and Prophet (PBUH) didn't mentioned any Hadith (Which as per you existed at that time) but said i have left Quran.

Sir Hadees words are never questioned Sir it is the line of people through which HAdees irs reached comes in question Sir only not he said I have left Quran and my Sunnah Sir and yes he didn't allowed to write hadees for sometime and asked them to orally learn it but than he a allowed it and people wrote them

Sometimes I confuse @Zarvan for a bot whose job is to continually post hadiths, Quranic ayahs or Islamic advice on this forum. No offense meant to him.

If secularism had anything to do with anti-Islam Ibn Rushd would never even have suggested it nor would there be Mutazili line of thought either. The issue here is the wahabi interpretation vs the moderate interpretation. The first step to anything is Ijtehad (scholarly debate form-it comes before reform). In those days scholars used to be so tolerant that they used to start the debate by saying I may be wrong before placing their ideals. Here people are trying to prove secularism is a heretical concept and claiming other kuffar. This is what limits debate and has weakened the Muslim ummah and Iqbal placed the blame on the fall of ijtehad to the gradual decline of Islam.

Those scholars accepted that Allah knew best. Ibn Khaldun, Iqbal all had a relationship with secularism. We cannot come to understand the reason we expanded. We couldn't have done it when at a time 95% of the population of the caliphate was non-muslim if we hadn't had a secular line of thinking and allowed them to freely practice their faith. Islam and secularism are one. A book called Mutazili philosophy and secularism explains this and the striking similarities between the two.

But wahabis have led us to believe there is only one true form of Islam. Religion is interpreted by each person in his own way. This is the first thing to accept. It is the duty of each scholar to provide alternate views on each topic from each and every school of thought and from every scholar, liberal or orthodox. Do read this post Zarvan.

Sir Ibn Rushd is not the authority authority is Quran Hadees and Sunnah and what sahabas did as a whole and secularism is complete against it and even Ibn Rushd never suggested it Sir Islam has its own laws and systems which we will have to implement other wise their will be war and the most bloody one

 

[Patriots]

I suggest you take your diatrib... sorry, complaints to the author then because I did not write this article. I give a link to my site when I post one of mine. Don't tell me you are another MQM supporter.

What happens? I speak urdu and it was the only language taught to me at birth though in my love I adopted others. Does it make a difference he claims so and so about urdu writers or is this about a holy mission to defend all speakers of urdu?

In either case you are right. The author makes an allegation without proof. I think he meant the utterly different news items found in urdu newspapers compared to english.



In either case we were the ones who produced him. Don't try to bash through our history just to perpetuate that Wahab was the only scholar who came. And he was seen as a scholar by most of the major people there at that time. Mu'tazili is an entire school of thought akin to secularism. This is who we are. Not terrorists.

1) Muslim are not terrorist ... This propaganda is being spread by your type of secular people ... I don't favor to TTP & LeJ ... Infact they are doing terrorist activities by taking external funding & these are puppets of CIA & Mosad ... They working to weakening Pakistan ..
2) I don't know any scholar among Muslim scholars named Wahab..!!!!!!!!
3) Moatazila is a misled sect ... This sect had strengthened their views was tested under the caliphs al-Ma'mun and al-Mu'tasim ... During their reign an inquisition court was created to deal with people … Who would not profess certain doctrines that the Abbasid caliphs thought were correct ... These doctrines were from the Mutazilite school of thought … And held that the Quran was created and not eternal ... Imam ibn Hanbal was compet to them bravely & arrested by caliph and brought in chains before the court … And suffered a great deal …. But he patiently submitted to corporal punishment and imprisonment … And resolutely refused to deviate from his beliefs ..

Don't tell me you are Zarvan number 2....

I appreciate to you that you confess that from where you belong ... Now I wouldn't wonder to knowing your faith ... Keep it up

 

[Patriots]

.

The law can only be removed thru a legislation passed by the National Assembly. The law has not been removed and is very much in existence.

Salman Taseer only said he wanted to remove the law. When qualify your admission that Qadri was wrong with a 'But'; it basically mean that you are indirectly agreeing that anyone, who merely wants to remove a law (remember the law is still there) is justifiably killed.

It shows how little some of my countrymen value human life! Our founding fathers must be turning in their graves; they never imagined that the country that so many people gave their life to create would turn into a hell hole of bigotry where even educated people think it is okay to shed human blood for the mere suspicion of someone wanting to change a law! Would you also think it okay to kill all those MNAs who would vote for the removal of the blasphemy law if it ever came up for debate in the National Assembly?

I have told I am not in his favor nor agains … Allah would better decide about him … I can’t never say in this regard anymore … Secondly Salman Taseer was trying to remove this law through extra – parliamentary legislation mean he sent a request to president that he issue a ordinance to remove the law ..

.

With the Wahhabis on the ascendance thanks to the bigot Zia (May he rot in hell for eternity) shrines of the Sufi are being bombed and their followers killed without mercy.

If you care to read history, spread of Islam in present day Pakistan & Kashmir is primarily due to the efforts of the Sufis.

In my opinion all Deobandis & Wahhabis should offer two rakats Nafal to bless the Sufis. For without the Sufis arriving in India following the conquests of Ghaznavi & the Ghoris and converting the local population with their exemplary devotion to Islam and pious character; most of the modern descendants of the indigenous people of the region such as Rajputs, Gujjars, Jats, Mians, Sheikhs etc; would still be ringing bells at the temples during the puja.

I would like to say about Zia that I do never support to Zia ul Haq nor I support to CIA funded Afghan Jihad … But now Afghan Taliban are getting involved war with America this with no doubts is a form of Jihad ..
Left of the Sufis … This sect did never spread Islam in anywhere … This kind of people just mislead the people to telling them such self-made prayers to reciting … This group much more harmful among the Muslims ... There is no difference between Rahibs (Chirstian) ... Sadhus (Hindu) ... And Sufis (Muslim) ..