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‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

I know that Sir and when some one commits blashpehmy in their country they give him or her the death punishment in fact they even give punishment for black magic Sir ask your government to do it if they will not do it and defend that kind of morons by saying he is governer and he can't be tried than people like Qadri will rise and take law in their own hands Sir if you want talk about Islam than come on its open challenge and by the way Sir we can only follow that government which runs according to Quran and Sunnah Sir not any other government that is Islamic law Sir first you go and study Islam @LoveIcon

I am studying Islam, and yes i am not expert like you. Here are some versus which i am sure being expert you know but still i am quoting.

"These are God's verses; we recite them for you truthfully. In which "Hadith", beside God and His verses, do they believe in? WOE TO EVERY SINFUL FABRICATOR. He hears God's verses, then insists arrogantly on his way, as if he never heard them; promise him painful retribution. When he learns anything from our verses, he takes it in vain; these have deserved humiliating retribution. Awaiting them is hell; neither their earnings, nor the idols they had set up beside God can help them; they have deserved terrible retribution. THIS IS THE GUIDANCE, and those who do not believe the verses of their Lord will suffer debasement, and painful retribution." (45:6-11)

"God has revealed the best 'Hadith'; a book that is consistent, and describes both ways (to heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord shudder therefrom, then their skins and hearts soften up and receive God's message. Such is God's guidance; He guides whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by Him, no one can guide them." (39:23)

"There are those who advocate vain 'Hadith' causing diversion from the path of God, without knowledge, and fail to take such actions seriously; these have deserved humiliating retribution. And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly, as if he never heard them; as if his ears are deaf; promise him painful retribution." (31:67)
 
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Sometimes I confuse @Zarvan for a bot whose job is to continually post hadiths, Quranic ayahs or Islamic advice on this forum. No offense meant to him. :)

If secularism had anything to do with anti-Islam Ibn Rushd would never even have suggested it nor would there be Mutazili line of thought either. The issue here is the wahabi interpretation vs the moderate interpretation. The first step to anything is Ijtehad (scholarly debate form-it comes before reform). In those days scholars used to be so tolerant that they used to start the debate by saying I may be wrong before placing their ideals. Here people are trying to prove secularism is a heretical concept and claiming other kuffar. This is what limits debate and has weakened the Muslim ummah and Iqbal placed the blame on the fall of ijtehad to the gradual decline of Islam.

Those scholars accepted that Allah knew best. Ibn Khaldun, Iqbal all had a relationship with secularism. We cannot come to understand the reason we expanded. We couldn't have done it when at a time 95% of the population of the caliphate was non-muslim if we hadn't had a secular line of thinking and allowed them to freely practice their faith. Islam and secularism are one. A book called Mutazili philosophy and secularism explains this and the striking similarities between the two.

But wahabis have led us to believe there is only one true form of Islam. Religion is interpreted by each person in his own way. This is the first thing to accept. It is the duty of each scholar to provide alternate views on each topic from each and every school of thought and from every scholar, liberal or orthodox. Do read this post Zarvan.
 
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Yeah - agree, I don't know arabic very well but i don't rely on single translation, I have 3 Urdu and 3 English translations and whenever in doubt i compare all of them and also check in google all the possible meaning of suspected words to double check the translation - but agreed i am at very basic level of understanding Quran because it's book of great wisdom - many things just looks like stories but when you read carefully every story/incident told in Quran is there to guide, There are many radical practices associated with Islam which actually created doubts in my mind that is Islam really a religion of peace, easy & as per human nature as claimed? But when i checked in Quran those practices are actually opposite of what Quran says. Now, I am confident that Islam is really easy, compatible with nature of any sane person and teach the peace ONLY IF i start checking the validity of Hadees as per guidance given in Quran.

"The righteous sect is one and that one is Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamat" how you declare that only this sect is right and everything they are doing is Islamic and as per Quran & Sunnah.



Very good - I am 100% agree with this do you?

Obey Allah = Quran
Obey Messenger = Quran & Sunnah: Quran i have, Sunnah - Sunnahs are preserved but later new things added i.e. Ablution, Prayer, Fasting, Zakat & Hajj exist and being practiced since the time of Prophet but there is distortion in these which led to divisions. How i should check which thing is extra or nu-necessary ? I have to check it with those who charged with authority.
those who charged with authority: Today who is charge with authority? and what's the criteria of authority? Ok, consider the clerics or the author of Hadees Book - I am 100% agree with this as well. Now they differ, so what to do now?
if ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger: You are not accepting this part of the verse? Why you are selective? Difference is there and i have to Refer Allah & Messenger which is Quran.

Dear Bro! Can you explain how would you refer to Messenger of Allah..??? Only the way you will check Ahadith … Without Hadith you could never act on Sunnah … Second thing you say that various Ahadith differ to each other … I agree but a question is raising in my head that Do you think after Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) this religion would had ended or it would had been corrupted like Jewish & Christianity…??Answer is … Never it wouldn’t had ended nor corrupted because Allah has taken its responsibility that it will be intact ever till end of world ..

Mere Bhai … If we try to understand the Hadith then inshaa – Allah all the misconceptions will be cleared … Before I proceed … I first need to lay down … What are we really discussing about..? Because there is no point in discussing the importance or implications of Hadiths or Sunnah … Until we clearly define as to what are they ... So here are the basic definitions ..

The Arabic word “Hadith” basically means an item of news … Conversation … A tale … A story … Or a report … Whether historical or legendary … True or false … Relating to the present or the past … From the time of the Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) his stories and communications dominated all other forms of communication. Consequently the term … Hadith began to be used almost exclusively for reports that spoke of his actions and sayings ..

The term Hadith has become a synonym for the term Sunnah … Though there is some difference in their meanings ... Sunnah according to Arabic lexicographers … Means a way … Course … Rule … Manner of acting or conduct of life ... Sunnah as a technical term in the Science of Hadith … Refers to whatever statements … Acts … Approvals … Physical or character descriptions … That are attributable to the Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) along with his biography before or after the beginning of his prophethood ... It is thus synonymous with the term Hadith ... It also refers to whatever is supported by evidence from the shareeah (Islamic laws) … The opposite of bidah (innovation) ... And in the Legalistic science of Fiqh the term Sunnah refers to recommended acts ... The Examples of different types of Sunnah as per Science of Hadith could be seen below:

(Statement) Narrated Abu Huraira: “The Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) said: “Whoever does not give up forged speech and evil actions … Allah is not in need of his leaving his food and drink (Means Allah will not accept his fasting).” (Sahih Bukhari)

(Act) Malik b. Huwairith reported: “The Messenger of Allah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) raised his hands apposite his ears … At the time of reciting the takbir (Means at the time of beginning the prayer) … And then again raised his hands apposite the ears at the time of bowing … And when he lifted his head after bowing he said: Allah listened to him who praised Him, and did like it (raised his hands up to the ears).” (Sahih Muslim)

(Approval) Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: “I used to sell camels at al-Baqi for dinars and take dirhams for them … And sell for dirhams and take dinars for them ... I would take these for these and give these for these ... I went to the Apostle of Allah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) who was in the house of Hafsah ... I said: Apostle of Allah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) take it easy … I shall ask you (a question): I sell camels at al-Baqi ... I sell (them) for dinars and take dirhams and I sell for dirhams and take dinars ... I take these for these, and give these for these. The Apostle of Allah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) then said: There is no harm in taking them at the current rate so long as you do not separate leaving something to be settled.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)
Thus Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) allowed money exchange with condition ..

(Description) Anas b. Malik reported: “I served the Messenger of Allah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) for ten years … And by Allah … He never said to me any harsh word … And he never said to me about a thing … As to why I had done that … And as to why I had not done that.” (Sahih Muslim)

I don’t mean that modified Ahadith … We will follow … But the Sahih Ahadith must be followed to act completely on Islam … I agree after Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) a flood of formatted Ahadith had been come … … But that is Allah who had sent such people … Those were Muhaddathin Kiram who have worked hard & fought against this nasty thing … And get separated authentic Ahadith than formatted … They have done a great job for sake of Islam … Allah has protected his deen by utilizing the people … One more thing that sahih Hadith never ever been conflicted with Quran … In this modern era we can’t verify to Ahadith … But it been already done by friends of Allah ..

Quran is the message… While the Hadith is the verbal translation of the message into pragmatic terms … As exemplified by the Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) ... While the Quran is the metaphysical basis of the Sunnah ... The Sunnah is the practical demonstration of the precepts laid down in the Quran ..

The duty of the Messenger of Allah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) was not just to communicate the message … Rather he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining … And illustrating that message ... That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following:

“Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye turn away, then (it is) for him (to do) only that wherewith he hath been charged, and for you (to do) only that wherewith ye have been charged. If ye obey him, ye will go aright. But the messenger hath no other charge than to convey (the message) plainly.” (An-Nur: 54)

This verse clearly tells us the overriding importance of Hadith to Muslims ... They should be eager to learn and follow the teachings of the Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) as expressed in Hadith ... If we are negligent in this respect… It is we who have to answer in front of Allah ..

We know that Allah has revealed the Quran … To His chosen Prophet Muhammad (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) ... So it is through the Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) … We come to hear the word of Allah … And it is the Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) himself … Who can properly explain and demonstrate the precepts in the Quran ... Without the required explanations and illustrations given by the Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) … The Quran may be misunderstood and misinterpreted by people ... So Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) took care to explain and demonstrate to his companions … How the Qur'anic verses must be read and understood ... That is to say … The importance of Hadith is linked to the importance of the Quran ..
 
In the Islam that I know, no individual person has the right to take the law in their own hands. I quoted the example of Saudi Arabia (KSA & Iran are the only two states that claim to follow Islamic Sharia law, albeit different schools of Fiqah) where it is mandatory to have 3 Qadis , who are all scholars of Hanbali School & men of sound character, before a judgement involving death penalty can be passed. There is also an appellate court in Saudi Arabia and death sentence is only carried out when all the due process of law has been exhausted. Only the State can carry out death sentence.

No doubt Blasphemy is punishable by death in KSA, but it has to be proven in a court of law and confirmed by the witnesses. Salman Taseer was never accused of Blasphemy himself; he only supported a near destitute woman who, according to Salman Taseer was wrongly accused. However, we have Honourable Zarvan in our midst, who despite being self proclaimed authority on Quran & Sunnah, justfies extra judicial cold blooded murder.

Honourable Sir, perhaps you are not aware that an accused is not guilty until he is convicted of the crime after due legal process, Islamic or otherwise. Salaman Taseer was never even accused, Mumtaz Qadri assumed him to be a blasphemer.

I am content to answer for my beliefs on the day of judgement. My Islam is a peaceful one, where there is no compulsion of any kind, no killing of Shias, people suspected of Blasphemy are not killed in cold blood nor their killers made into heroes and where suicide is forbidden. You ask me to study Islam, Sir, I wouldn’t even care to touch the blood thirsty version of Islam that you support with a tent pole. Let us agree that we follow different religions altogether and leave it at that.

I have nothing more to say on this subject.
 
In short, If every individual Muslims start practicing Islam i.e. Give Zakat & due taxes, Stop giving & taking interest, Stop Haraam/foul earning, obey laws, honor their agreements, adopt honesty and stop telling lies than Islamic System will be automatically in place. No - Rocket science or Divine Mullah is required for this.

Both al-Bukhari, in "The Book of Calling the Apostates to Repent" in "The Chapter on Killing those who Refuse to Accept the Obligatory Laws and those Associated with Apostacy"; and Muslim, in "The Book of Faith" in "The Chapter on the Order to Fight People", report, on the authority of Abu Hurayra, who said: "After the Prophet had died, and Abu Bakr was made his successor, there were [some] Arabs who turned to disbelief. 'Umar said: 'O Abu Bakr! How can you fight the people when the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) has said: 'I have been ordered to fight the people until they say: 'There is no God but Allah' and whoever says this, makes himself and his property inviolable except by legal right, and his reckoning is with Allah?' Abu Bakr replied: 'By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between salat and zakat , for zakat is a lawful right upon the property! By Allah! Were they to withhold even a single animal that they used to give the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.), I will fight them over their withholding it'. Then 'Umar said: 'By Allah! I saw then that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr to [the cause of] fighting, and I realized then that it was correct".
 
From what i understand, Islam acquired an extremist flavor once it crossed into the Indian subcontinent ( i am not pointing fingers at anyone ). Most Muslims from Pakistan and India have little or no knowledge of Arabic other than the ability to read and recite.

For the Arabs though, reading the texts in their own language enabled them to set it in Historical context, keeping in mind the observations by religious authorities. Deprived of linguistic context of the Hadees or the Qur'an forced non-arab readers to take things literally.

Once it crossed into the Indian subcontinent, the idea of Islam as a fighting force as opposed to it being a religion of peace became more prominent. Many Pakistanis were influenced by Mawdudi ( an agitator and a newsman ) whose major books conveyed these poisonous ideas. His work got translated into Arabic by the late 50's and went back to Arabian peninsula to radicalize the youth and un-employed there.

Islam had migrated from the Arab world to the east, then returned home with an Indian accent and a strong militant message which made the masses in Cairo, Beirut and elsewhere more receptive to terrorist propaganda. The poverty belts there, naturally became the breeding grounds for militancy.

Eventually you get people like Zarvan as products of these dis-information campaigns.
I would like some members to verify my post if its not too much trouble @Oscar @Safriz @RescueRanger @LoveIcon @Rafael @niaz

Dear Islam is not a militant religion ... This is very much peaceful & human friendly religion ..
 
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Really don't know about your knowledge of religion but truth is Islam a religion that looks like the religion of creator as it blatantly says don't accept Shirk and even leave your parents if they teach you against the teachings of Allah and this religion provide such soul satisfaction that no other religion can and that's the reason Islam is most fast spreading religion in the world you will never see a muslim becoming hindu or Christian but you will see a lot of hindus and Christians becoming muslims at their own will...there has to be something in this religion to attract masses..
 
Distortion of Islam started long before Indian invasion, infect after death of 4th Caliph. After that Islam was twisted to suite the objectives of rulers. In India - Islam first came through saints long before Invasions. And yes many of those Invasions were for Power but justified with out of context verses of Quran and forged Hadees and twisted history by attributing things to Prophet & his companions.

Again you are wrong over here ... Saints (Sufis) were come to India far later invasion ... Firstly Muhammad bin Kasim (The Great Mujahid) had invaded over India ... Then other Mujhaids had been coming time to time ... Sufis came to India after 4th Hijri ..
 
Salman Taseer was never accused of Blasphemy himself; he only supported a near destitute woman who, according to Salman Taseer was wrongly accused. However, we have Honourable Zarvan in our midst, who despite being self proclaimed authority on Quran & Sunnah, justfies extra judicial cold blooded murder.

Honourable Sir, perhaps you are not aware that an accused is not guilty until he is convicted of the crime after due legal process, Islamic or otherwise. Salaman Taseer was never even accused, Mumtaz Qadri assumed him to be a blasphemer.

Yes Salman Taseer himself didn't committed blasphemy but he tried to remove this law & he was very much against this law ..
 
KARACHI: Urdu linguists have distorted the meaning of the word “secular,” and falsely translated it as la-deen (non-religious). The use of the word is so dangerous now that even mainstream leftist political parties in the country are afraid of talking about it.

Civil society representatives highlighted these points as they participated in a seminar titled ‘Democracy and secularism in Pakistan: Its need and importance’, at the Arts Council on Saturday. The event was organised by the Forum for Secular Pakistan. The participants urged political leaders to push for a secular state, “as there can be no democracy in the country without secularism”.

Prof. Dr Jaffar Ahmed, the chairperson of the Pakistan Study Centre, criticised Urdu linguists for “distorting” the meaning of ‘secular’ in earlier dictionaries. The word was originally used to refer to the small pieces of land that common people used to hold in the days when the Catholic Church would own most of the land. The word came to symbolise scientific inventions and progressive thought in the 19th century, he said.

Senator Hasil Bizenjo said that secularism had become, perhaps, the most difficult subject to talk about in the country. “If someone says that he is secular, people would kill him on the spot.” He said that only three to four political parties in the country had mentioned the word in their manifestos.

On the other hand, monarchs, as well as democratic governments, have been using religion to strengthen their rule for centuries. However, there have been a few prominent rulers, including the founder of the Mughal dynasty, who had grown worried over the amalgamation of religion with state affairs, said I A Rehman, the secretary general of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. “For democracy to survive, it is necessary for the state to stay neutral when it came to religion.”

‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’ – The Express Tribune

Urdu linguistic didnot do that...
read Faiz ahmed faiz...
he was a hafiz e quran and caal himself secular...
he replied all fatwas against him...
these are bunch of Mullas who had done all this to protect interests of bloody Politicians....
a bunch of paid mullas who had done this would suffer...
well the one who know a bit of urdu or history of secularism knows it's meaning very much..
here dividing women is not allowed...
seculars meant that to give equal rights to women...
this point of pak seculars was intermixed with Russian secularism...
Politians are land lirds having many many villages...
this land reforms made them mad..:crazy:
Urdu did never mis understood meaning of secular....
it's politiaans who are creating problems to keep their business furnished...

Again you are wrong over here ... Saints (Sufis) were come to India far later invasion ... Firstly Muhammad bin Kasim (The Great Mujahid) had invaded over India ... Then other Mujhaids had been coming time to time ... Sufis came to India after 4th Hijri ..

point is use of force...
and force was never a cause for this religion to be spread....
Muhammad Bin Qasim never forced a single man to convert into muslin neither do aby other Muslim empror did sooo.....
Europe admit that...
 
Sometimes I confuse @Zarvan for a bot whose job is to continually post hadiths, Quranic ayahs or Islamic advice on this forum. No offense meant to him. :)

If secularism had anything to do with anti-Islam Ibn Rushd would never even have suggested it nor would there be Mutazili line of thought either. The issue here is the wahabi interpretation vs the moderate interpretation. The first step to anything is Ijtehad (scholarly debate form-it comes before reform). In those days scholars used to be so tolerant that they used to start the debate by saying I may be wrong before placing their ideals. Here people are trying to prove secularism is a heretical concept and claiming other kuffar. This is what limits debate and has weakened the Muslim ummah and Iqbal placed the blame on the fall of ijtehad to the gradual decline of Islam.

Those scholars accepted that Allah knew best. Ibn Khaldun, Iqbal all had a relationship with secularism. We cannot come to understand the reason we expanded. We couldn't have done it when at a time 95% of the population of the caliphate was non-muslim if we hadn't had a secular line of thinking and allowed them to freely practice their faith. Islam and secularism are one. A book called Mutazili philosophy and secularism explains this and the striking similarities between the two.

But wahabis have led us to believe there is only one true form of Islam. Religion is interpreted by each person in his own way. This is the first thing to accept. It is the duty of each scholar to provide alternate views on each topic from each and every school of thought and from every scholar, liberal or orthodox. Do read this post Zarvan.

Dear Ibn Rushd was a philospher he wasn't a Islamic scholar ... So he would be out of Islamic discussion ... Second thing Ahle Hadith don't interpret to religion on their own way ... They interpret the Islamic ideology in the light of Quran & Hadith ..
 
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stay on topic guyzzz.....:offtopic:

Dear Ibn Rushd was a philospher he wasn't a Islamic scholar ... So he would be out of Islamic discussion ... Second thing Ahle Hadith don't interpret to religion on their own way ... They interpret the Islamic ideology in the light of Quran & Hadith ..

Who said Ibn E Rushd was just a philosopher???
he was an Islamic philosoher and a Hifiz e Quran with much knowledge of Hadis..
 
point is use of force...
and force was never a cause for this religion to be spread....
Muhammad Bin Qasim never forced a single man to convert into muslin neither do aby other Muslim empror did sooo.....
Europe admit that...

I am very much agreed with you ... I just want to correct the history ... And actually Islam is spread in India by Muslim Mujahideen ... not by Sufis ... Local non-Muslims were very much inspired by their best of conduct ... And entered into the circle of Islam ..
 
Yes Salman Taseer himself didn't committed blasphemy but he tried to remove this law & he was very much against this law ..

And therefore Salman Taseer deserved to be killed by his own bodyguard and his killer made into a hero? Is this the kind of blood thirsty religion TTP & their supporters want to impose on Pakistan?
Please enlighten me under which Quranic edict or Hadith, any person who wants to remove the Balsphemy law should be killed with or without a trial?

Certainly this is not the Islam that I believe in; thus I am a kafir deserve to be killed by the Lashkar Jhangvi heroes of pure Islam??
 
Again you are wrong over here ... Saints (Sufis) were come to India far later invasion ... Firstly Muhammad bin Kasim (The Great Mujahid) had invaded over India ... Then other Mujhaids had been coming time to time ... Sufis came to India after 4th Hijri ..

Jab Great Mujahid nay sab ko muslman kar he diya tha tu phir Sufis mangoo lainay aay thay?
 

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