‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Mech]

Check validity of Hadees under light of Quran is the nightmare for these people because it will shutdown their business of sectarian divide, running madresahs (where they focus only on Hadees), lust of ruling world with sword, Issuing fatwa to chop someones head who don't agree with their extremist theories.

From what i understand, Islam acquired an extremist flavor once it crossed into the Indian subcontinent ( i am not pointing fingers at anyone ). Most Muslims from Pakistan and India have little or no knowledge of Arabic other than the ability to read and recite.

For the Arabs though, reading the texts in their own language enabled them to set it in Historical context, keeping in mind the observations by religious authorities. Deprived of linguistic context of the Hadees or the Qur'an forced non-arab readers to take things literally.

Once it crossed into the Indian subcontinent, the idea of Islam as a fighting force as opposed to it being a religion of peace became more prominent. Many Pakistanis were influenced by Mawdudi ( an agitator and a newsman ) whose major books conveyed these poisonous ideas. His work got translated into Arabic by the late 50's and went back to Arabian peninsula to radicalize the youth and un-employed there.

Islam had migrated from the Arab world to the east, then returned home with an Indian accent and a strong militant message which made the masses in Cairo, Beirut and elsewhere more receptive to terrorist propaganda. The poverty belts there, naturally became the breeding grounds for militancy.

Eventually you get people like Zarvan as products of these dis-information campaigns.
I would like some members to verify my post if its not too much trouble @Oscar @Safriz @RescueRanger @LoveIcon @Rafael @niaz

 

[niaz]

The problem is the way of thinking. Karl Marx was on the mark when he said that religion is opium of the masses. People of the older generation such as I, would have liked that society should be reformed from within. Once you have succeed in creating a God fearing just society where common ills such dishonesty, bearing false witness, theft and bribery are looked down upon, it becomes easy to implement Islamic system.

Countries like UK have created a system where education & health is free. Unemployed get income support, majority of the courts are corruption free and even the very powerful such as the Ministers have to resign when they put in false expense claim or are found guilty of any transgression. Such countries may be bereft of “Muslims” but have a system more Islamic in nature and this has made people law abiding by habit rather than by force. For example one would see that places meant for ‘Disabled’ would be empty even when rest of the car park is full and if you kill somebody, regardless of the reason, chances are that you will get caught and punished.

On the other hand, Pakistan may be full of “Muslims” but the society is bereft of Islamic values. Anyone who remembers Pakistan before the bigot Zia era when the poison of Wahhabi/Salafin ideology started spreading will acknowledge that Pakistan was a far better place to live in than it is now. Spread of Deobandi/Wahhabi preachers have created a society worse than before.

Since the advent of the Wahhabi/Salafi ideology, the peaceful way has been forsaken. Now everything is thru the gun barrel; if you don’t do as I say, you are dead or branded a kafir. Cold blooded killers such as Mumtaz Qadri are celebrated as heroes! Doesn’t this encourage people to take law in their hands and also promotes anarchy?

It is ironic the people who claim to be authority on Quran & Islam, ignore clear contradiction of Allah’s edit “ Don’t kill yourself” and support the Taliban butchers because Taliban claim to be fighting for Islam

Regret to admit that as long as rational & intelligent people such as members of this forum support bigotry and butchery in the name of Islam, Pakistan will continue to go from bad to worse.

 

[Zarvan]

The problem is the way of thinking. Karl Marx was on the mark when he said that religion is opium of the masses. People of the older generation such as I, would have liked that society should be reformed from within. Once you have succeed in creating a God fearing just society where common ills such dishonesty, bearing false witness, theft and bribery are looked down upon, it becomes easy to implement Islamic system.

Countries like UK have created a system where education & health is free. Unemployed get income support, majority of the courts are corruption free and even the very powerful such as the Ministers have to resign when they put in false expense claim or are found guilty of any transgression. Such countries may be bereft of “Muslims” but have a system more Islamic in nature and this has made people law abiding by habit rather than by force. For example one would see that places meant for ‘Disabled’ would be empty even when rest of the car park is full and if you kill somebody, regardless of the reason, chances are that you will get caught and punished.

On the other hand, Pakistan may be full of “Muslims” but the society is bereft of Islamic values. Anyone who remembers Pakistan before the bigot Zia era when the poison of Wahhabi/Salafin ideology started spreading will acknowledge that Pakistan was a far better place to live in than it is now. Spread of Deobandi/Wahhabi preachers have created a society worse than before.

Since the advent of the Wahhabi/Salafi ideology, the peaceful way has been forsaken. Now everything is thru the gun barrel; if you don’t do as I say, you are dead or branded a kaffir. Whereas cold blooded killers such as Mumtaz Qadri are celebrated as heroes! Doesn’t this encourage people to take law in the hands and promotes anarchy?

It is ironic the people who claim to be authority on Quran & Islam, ignore clear contradiction of Allah’s edit “ Don’t kill yourself” and support the Taliban butchers because Taliban claim to be fighting for Islam

Regret to admit that as long as rational & intelligent people such as members of this forum support bigotry and butchery in the name of Islam, Pakistan will continue to go from bad to worse.

Sir people like Qadri takes law in their own hands because your government is corrupt always afraid of USA and not applying law Sir if Muslims governments will not apply Islamic law and than people will rise up and implement it on their own Sir that will create chaos and trouble but they will have to do it

 

[INDIC]

@Zarvan What do you think about Dr. Abdus Salam Pakistan's only nobel prize winner, should Pakistanis take pride in him. Are you proud of him.

 

[Zarvan]

@Zarvan What do you think about Dr. Abdus Salam Pakistan's only nobel prize winner, should Pakistanis take pride in him. Are you proud of him.

As a Scientist he did great but yes he was a Qadyani but can't take his scientific achievement away

 

[INDIC]

As a Scientist he did great but yes he was a Qadyani but can't take his scientific achievement away

But Pakistanis didn't give him the honor he deserved, while religous groups harassed him a lot.

 

[Zarvan]

But Pakistanis didn't give him the honor he deserved, while religous groups harassed him a lot.

His scientific achievement he got the credit but as for Qadyani hot didn't got it I don't like Qadyanis but he did achieved in science and it is a good thing

 

[Sugarcane]

I am very much convinced with Quran … But I also convinced with Sahih Ahadith … Which were collected honorable Sahaba & Ulema Kiram and you don’t consider to them anything … Because you can much better understand while you didn’t know single word of Arabic … But unfortunately you depend on just translation … Allah had sent a teacher to guide Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) who is Jibraeel … The teacher of Sahabs (RA) was Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) himself … Then Sahaba (RA) taught to Tabaeen then after them then after them and it is still the same stream … But you wouldn’t anyone … You are denying to the Sunnah ... Quran has told us Fardh of Abultion … Salat & Hajj ect … But Sunnah we are got from Ahadith … Neither shia nor sunni … Neither hanfi nor shafai … The righteous sect is one and that one is Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamat … Kindly read below Hadith:
Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) said: “Bani Israel was splited in 72 sects and my Ummah will be splited in 73 sect. All sects will be gone in the hell but one sect will be gone in Jannah.” Sahab Kiram (RA) said: “Ya Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) which one will be that.”
(ما انا عليه واصحاب&#1740
“Those will be on the way of mine & my companions.”
In above Hadith Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) has told 2 things to be standard to righteous sect.
1) His Holy Personality
2) His Holy Companions
Allah says in Quran: “O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (Surah An-Nisa :59
While Allah allows that refer your disputes to Allah & Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihi Wa Alaihi Wa Sallam) then how would you fulfill his this message without going to Hadith … According to above verse Allah has put something in Hadith except Quran but you deny … Isn’t this disobeying of Allah ..

Yeah - agree, I don't know arabic very well but i don't rely on single translation, I have 3 Urdu and 3 English translations and whenever in doubt i compare all of them and also check in google all the possible meaning of suspected words to double check the translation - but agreed i am at very basic level of understanding Quran because it's book of great wisdom - many things just looks like stories but when you read carefully every story/incident told in Quran is there to guide, There are many radical practices associated with Islam which actually created doubts in my mind that is Islam really a religion of peace, easy & as per human nature as claimed? But when i checked in Quran those practices are actually opposite of what Quran says. Now, I am confident that Islam is really easy, compatible with nature of any sane person and teach the peace ONLY IF i start checking the validity of Hadees as per guidance given in Quran.

"The righteous sect is one and that one is Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamat" how you declare that only this sect is right and everything they are doing is Islamic and as per Quran & Sunnah.

“O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (Surah An-Nisa :59

Very good - I am 100% agree with this do you?

Obey Allah = Quran
Obey Messenger = Quran & Sunnah: Quran i have, Sunnah - Sunnahs are preserved but later new things added i.e. Ablution, Prayer, Fasting, Zakat & Hajj exist and being practiced since the time of Prophet but there is distortion in these which led to divisions. How i should check which thing is extra or nu-necessary ? I have to check it with those who charged with authority.
those who charged with authority: Today who is charge with authority? and what's the criteria of authority? Ok, consider the clerics or the author of Hadees Book - I am 100% agree with this as well. Now they differ, so what to do now?
if ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger: You are not accepting this part of the verse? Why you are selective? Difference is there and i have to Refer Allah & Messenger which is Quran.

 

[niaz]

Sir people like Qadri takes law in their own hands because your government is corrupt always afraid of USA and not applying law Sir if Muslims governments will not apply Islamic law and than people will rise up and implement it on their own Sir that will create chaos and trouble but they will have to do it

Hon Sir,

I am giving example of Saudi Arabia because Deobandis and Wahhabis will not accept any other example.

Being a self-proclaimed authority on Islam, you should be aware of the Saudi Arabian judicial system which follows the Hanbali School. In Saudi Arabia Death penalty can only be awarded by a Qadi who must be trained as a scholar and be a practicing Muslim.' There are different levels of courts.

Musta'alah courts are the local courts and do not have jurisdiction over any case that could result in death." The High Courts of Shari'a Law, or Kubra, have jurisdiction over Hudud and Qisas crimes." Although usually only one Qadi sits on each court, the hearing of a crime that would result in execution is heard by a panel of three judges."

If everyone started taking law in their hands, it is the law of the jungle and cannot be justified under any circumstances. Nevertheless you support it and thus are encouraging anarchy.

Your post has proved my point. TTP and their supporters have little or no knowledge of Islam; they justify actions which promote a lawless society all in the name of a twisted concept Islam where it is okay to be the judge, jury and executioner all in one, without going thru due process of law.

I thought that I was a Muslim from countless generations, but I prefer to be a kafir among the people who justify cold blooded murder and show no respect for human life.

 

[Sugarcane]

From what i understand, Islam acquired an extremist flavor once it crossed into the Indian subcontinent ( i am not pointing fingers at anyone ). Most Muslims from Pakistan and India have little or no knowledge of Arabic other than the ability to read and recite.

For the Arabs though, reading the texts in their own language enabled them to set it in Historical context, keeping in mind the observations by religious authorities. Deprived of linguistic context of the Hadees or the Qur'an forced non-arab readers to take things literally.

Once it crossed into the Indian subcontinent, the idea of Islam as a fighting force as opposed to it being a religion of peace became more prominent. Many Pakistanis were influenced by Mawdudi ( an agitator and a newsman ) whose major books conveyed these poisonous ideas. His work got translated into Arabic by the late 50's and went back to Arabian peninsula to radicalize the youth and un-employed there.

Islam had migrated from the Arab world to the east, then returned home with an Indian accent and a strong militant message which made the masses in Cairo, Beirut and elsewhere more receptive to terrorist propaganda. The poverty belts there, naturally became the breeding grounds for militancy.

Eventually you get people like Zarvan as products of these dis-information campaigns.
I would like some members to verify my post if its not too much trouble @Oscar @Safriz @RescueRanger @LoveIcon @Rafael @niaz

Distortion of Islam started long before Indian invasion, infect after death of 4th Caliph. After that Islam was twisted to suite the objectives of rulers. In India - Islam first came through saints long before Invasions. And yes many of those Invasions were for Power but justified with out of context verses of Quran and forged Hadees and twisted history by attributing things to Prophet & his companions.

 

[Sugarcane]

The problem is the way of thinking. Karl Marx was on the mark when he said that religion is opium of the masses. People of the older generation such as I, would have liked that society should be reformed from within. Once you have succeed in creating a God fearing just society where common ills such dishonesty, bearing false witness, theft and bribery are looked down upon, it becomes easy to implement Islamic system.

Countries like UK have created a system where education & health is free. Unemployed get income support, majority of the courts are corruption free and even the very powerful such as the Ministers have to resign when they put in false expense claim or are found guilty of any transgression. Such countries may be bereft of “Muslims” but have a system more Islamic in nature and this has made people law abiding by habit rather than by force. For example one would see that places meant for ‘Disabled’ would be empty even when rest of the car park is full and if you kill somebody, regardless of the reason, chances are that you will get caught and punished.

On the other hand, Pakistan may be full of “Muslims” but the society is bereft of Islamic values. Anyone who remembers Pakistan before the bigot Zia era when the poison of Wahhabi/Salafin ideology started spreading will acknowledge that Pakistan was a far better place to live in than it is now. Spread of Deobandi/Wahhabi preachers have created a society worse than before.

Since the advent of the Wahhabi/Salafi ideology, the peaceful way has been forsaken. Now everything is thru the gun barrel; if you don’t do as I say, you are dead or branded a kafir. Cold blooded killers such as Mumtaz Qadri are celebrated as heroes! Doesn’t this encourage people to take law in their hands and also promotes anarchy?

It is ironic the people who claim to be authority on Quran & Islam, ignore clear contradiction of Allah’s edit “ Don’t kill yourself” and support the Taliban butchers because Taliban claim to be fighting for Islam

Regret to admit that as long as rational & intelligent people such as members of this forum support bigotry and butchery in the name of Islam, Pakistan will continue to go from bad to worse.

No Sir, You are Kharijii & Munafiq, Western system are 100% Kafir systems. We have to implement our "Islamic System" all over the world and chop off the head who don't obey it. We also need to spread Islam all over the world, I am all set with my AK-47, I will go to a non-muslim and will ask him either to accept Islam, Give me Jaziah or get ready to be killed.

 

[Zarvan]

Hon Sir,

I am giving example of Saudi Arabia because Deobandis and Wahhabis will not accept any other example.

Being a self-proclaimed authority on Islam, you should be aware of the Saudi Arabian judicial system which follows the Hanbali School. In Saudi Arabia Death penalty can only be awarded by a Qadi who must be trained as a scholar and be a practicing Muslim.' There are different levels of courts.

Musta'alah courts are the local courts and do not have jurisdiction over any case that could result in death." The High Courts of Shari'a Law, or Kubra, have jurisdiction over Hudud and Qisas crimes." Although usually only one Qadi sits on each court, the hearing of a crime that would result in execution is heard by a panel of three judges."

If everyone started taking law in their hands, it is the law of the jungle and cannot be justified under any circumstances. Nevertheless you support it and thus are encouraging anarchy.

Your post has proved my point. TTP and their supporters have little or no knowledge of Islam; they justify actions which promote a lawless society all in the name of a twisted concept Islam where it is okay to be the judge, jury and executioner all in one, without going thru due process of law.

I thought that I was a Muslim from countless generations, but I prefer to be a kafir among the people who justify cold blooded murder and show no respect for human life.

I know that Sir and when some one commits blashpehmy in their country they give him or her the death punishment in fact they even give punishment for black magic Sir ask your government to do it if they will not do it and defend that kind of morons by saying he is governer and he can't be tried than people like Qadri will rise and take law in their own hands Sir if you want talk about Islam than come on its open challenge and by the way Sir we can only follow that government which runs according to Quran and Sunnah Sir not any other government that is Islamic law Sir first you go and study Islam @LoveIcon

 

[Zarvan]

Distortion of Islam started long before Indian invasion, infect after death of 4th Caliph. After that Islam was twisted to suite the objectives of rulers. In India - Islam first came through saints long before Invasions. And yes many of those Invasions were for Power but justified with out of context verses of Quran and forged Hadees and twisted history by attributing things to Prophet & his companions.

No body forged Hadees Hadees existed from the day HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW announced his PROPHETHOOD Quran and Hadees both existed at the time of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW and was continued in the time of 4 great caliphs and after ward too

 

[Dubious]

@Zarvan just out of curiosity do you know what hadith is?

 

[Zarvan]

@Zarvan just out of curiosity do you know what hadith is?

Yes Hadith and Sunnah are the sayings actions and also silent approval of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW

A hadith is defined as the narration concerning the sayings and deeds of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). A hadith can also describe his moral traits, physical appearance and his attitude or approval of things said or done in his presence.
The Arabic word hadith basically means "an item of news, conversation, a tale, a story, or a report," whether historical or legendary, true or false, relating to the present or the past. However, like other Arabic words (e.g. salah, zakah), its meaning changed in Islam. Starting from the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), his stories and communications dominated all other forms of communication. Consequently, the term Hadith began to be used almost exclusively for reports that spoke of the Prophet's actions and sayings. In what follows, we will shed light on the aspects that show the significance of Hadith in Islam.
Article 1 -What are Hadeeths and Sunnah?
Before we proceed to some of the core topics, we first need to lay down, what are we really discussing about? Because there is no point in discussing the importance or implications of Hadiths or Sunnah until we clearly define as to what are they. So here are the basic definitions.
DEFINITIONS:
Hadeeth: The Arabic word Hadeeth basically means ‘an item of news, conversation, a tale, a story or a report,’ whether historical or legendary, true or false, relating to the present or the past. Its secondary meaning as an adjective is ‘new’ as opposed to qadeem, ‘old’. However, like other Arabic words (e.g. salaah, zakaah), its meaning changed in Islam. From the time of the Prophet (pbuh), his stories and communications dominated all other forms of communication. Consequently, the termHadeeth began to be used almost exclusively for reports that spoke of his actions and sayings.
Hadeeth and Sunnah: The term Hadeeth has become a synonym for the term Sunnah, though there is some difference in their meanings. Sunnah, according to Arabic lexicographers, means ‘a way; course; rule; manner of acting or conduct of life’. Sunnah, as a technical term in the Science of Hadeeth, refers to whatever statements, acts, approvals, physical or character descriptions that are attributable to the Prophet (pbuh) along with his biography before or after the beginning of his prophet hood. It is thus synonymous with the term Hadeeth. However, according to Usool al-Fiqhscience (legal methodology), Sunnah refers to only the statements, acts and approvals of the Prophet (PBUH). It also refers to whatever is supported by evidence from the sharee‘ah (Islamic laws); the opposite of bid‘ah (innovation). And in the Legalistic science of Fiqh the term Sunnahrefers to recommended acts. The Examples of different types of Sunnah as per Science of Hadith could be seen below,
Example of ‘Statement’
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (saww) said, “Whoever does not give up forged speech and evil actions, God is not in need of his leaving his food and drink (i.e. God will not accept his fasting.)” [Saheeh Bukhari]
Example for ‘Acts’
Malik b. Huwairith reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) raised his hands apposite his ears at the time of reciting the takbir (i. e. at the time of beginning the prayer) and then again raised his hands apposite the ears at the time of bowing and when he lifted his head after bowing he said: Allah listened to him who praised Him, and did like it (raised his hands up to the ears). [Saheeh Muslim]
Example of ‘Approval’
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: I used to sell camels at al-Baqi for dinars and take dirhams for them, and sell for dirhams and take dinars for them. I would take these for these and give these for these. I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who was in the house of Hafsah. I said: Apostle of Allah , take it easy, I shall ask you (a question): I sell camels at al-Baqi’. I sell (them) for dinars and take dirhams and I sell for dirhams and take dinars. I take these for these, and give these for these. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) then said: There is no harm in taking them at the current rate so long as you do not separate leaving something to be settled. [Sunan Abu Dawud]
Thus Prophet(PBUH) allowed money exchange with condition
Example of character ‘Description’
Anas b. Malik reported: I served the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) for ten years, and, by Allah, he never said to me any harsh word, and he never said to me about a thing as to why I had done that and as to why I had not done that. [Saheeh Muslim].