What's new

‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

Well here is the question, is quran easy to understand for ordinary people and clear as to what is to be done. Does it require any supplementary text to be understood. Does it require any specialized people to help ordinary people.
It seems two people can argue about what quran says and arrive at completely different(sometimes opposite) conclusion.
Its seems a bit like british tax laws... :)

Quran is simple to understand but Ahadith are also important along with Quran to more understanding to Islamic laws ... Whoever wishes ..
 
That is intellectual dishonesty, that is not entire quran, I can post random verse of geeta to suggest it is easy to understand.. without context you wont get it. And to get context you either need to be of same heritage( people surrounding you have told some of the things which will help you) or need a teacher. :)

we are arguing and killing each other on difference of opinion which can even arise with a simple wrong translation from arabic (or two different translations with different interpretation), not about the above verse... :)

I agree with your this argument … Some verses like verses of inheritance you can’t understand without consulting with an expert of Jurisprudence who is called Mufti ..
 
Tayammum:
5:006 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.




Rakah:The Quran does not specify any number of units for prayers. It leaves it to our discretion. Since there is no dispute on 2,4,4,3,4 (fardh), so this is more likely preserved by God.

Ok but you said you learn the method of your religion practices from the Quran only and neglect Hadith which explains the Quran.
Hadith tells us the number of Rakah in each Fard.

Zakat: If you are asking percentage than yes, it's not mentioned but guidance for this is still there




6:141 He is the One who established gardens, trellised and untrellised, and palm trees, and crops with different tastes, and olives, and pomegranate —fruits that are similar, yet dissimilar. Eat from their fruits, and give the due alms on the day of harvest,* and do not waste anything. He does not love the wasters.


Example here is given of corps, eat from it, give due Zakat and don't waste. Means - give maximum or infect all excessive of your needs.

what are the guidance from the Quran. How do deal with gold,sliver, paper money. how to calculate your Zakat?
Hadith tells us that.

Hajj:
2:196] You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and 'Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) between 'Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home—this completes ten—provided you do not live at the Sacred Mosque (Masjid). You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution
[2:197] Hajj shall be observed in the specified months.* Whoever sets out to observe Hajj shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct, and arguments throughout Hajj. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof. As you prepare your provisions for the journey, the best provision is righteousness. You shall observe Me, O you who possess intelligence
[2:198] You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord (through commerce). When you file from 'Arafaat, you shall commemorate GOD at the Sacred Location (of Muzdalifah). You shall commemorate Him for guiding you; before this, you had gone astray.
[2:199] You shall file together, with the rest of the people who file, and ask GOD for forgiveness. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[2:200] Once you complete your rites, you shall continue to commemorate GOD as you commemorate your own parents, or even better. Some people would say, "Our Lord, give us of this world," while having no share in the Hereafter.
[2:201] Others would say, "Our Lord, grant us righteousness in this world, and righteousness in the Hereafter, and spare us the retribution of Hell."
[2:202] Each of these will receive the share they have earned. GOD is most efficient in reckoning.
[2:203] You shall commemorate GOD for a number of days (in Mena); whoever hastens to do this in two days commits no sin, and whoever stays longer commits no sin, so long as righteousness is maintained. You shall observe GOD, and know that before Him you will be gathered.


what are the conditions of stoning and the way of perform it from the Quran please? Now keep in mind Hajj is compulsory and one of Islam's Five pillars as well as Salat and Zakat.
Hadith tells about that.

Aitkaf - As far as i know it's not mandatory, If it is than first show tell me the verse of Quran declaring it mandatory, than i will try to research and find the answer.

Never mind.

Miyqat, Diyah??

Miqat

Last line of your posts sums everything by itself.


It's responsibility of EVERY believer (not just Hadith book writers) to investigate & verify, Surely they have verified but there is no surety that their judgement was right, after all they were humans. So, Today we can't verify the source but surely we can cross check either these Hadith's comply with Quran or not - no matter how much Sahih the book is but still that is not more credible than Quran.

highlighted in blue=key point

I do not agree on the bolded part. all the haidth classified as Sahih in the books of Bukhari and Muslim are authentic and verified through Isnad and Matn< credibility of the Hadith and reporter.

you need to read the classification of Hadith to get better understanding. Here is one link please read

as the purity of the knowledge of the Sunnah became a concern, Allah (SWT) caused the Muslim Ummah to produce individuals with exceptional memory skills and analytical expertise, who travelled tirelessly to collect thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of prophetic wisdom from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the large number of Ulama (scholars), the companions and those who followed their way. All of this was achieved through precise attention to the words narrated, and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of hadith.

The methodology of the expert scholars of hadith in assessing the narrations and sorting out the genuine from the mistaken and fabricated, for ms the subject matter of the science of hadith. Below is a brief discussion of the terminology and classifications of hadith.

Muttaqun OnLine - Science of Hadith: According to Quran and Sunnah

Importance of Hadith

Hadith is integral to the Qur&#8217;an, since they are inseparably linked to each other. It is impossible to understand the Qur&#8217;an without reference to Hadith. The Qur&#8217;an is the message, and the Hadith is the explanation of the message by the Messenger himself. I mention the following points to clarify the issue:

1. The Qur&#8217;an makes it abundantly clear that the function of the Messenger is not merely that of a deliveryman who simply delivers the revelation from Allah to us. Rather, he has been entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating the same. This is a point mentioned in a number of verses in the Qur&#8217;an:

[And We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.] (An-Nahl 16:44)

[And We have revealed the Scripture unto thee only that thou mayst explain unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.] (An-Nahl 16:64)

Therefore, Hadith explains, clarifies, and removes ambiguities about the Qur&#8217;an. Hence, once we reject the Hadith, we may never be able to figure out the whole meaning of the Qur&#8217;an.

2. Much of Islam will remain mere abstract concepts without Hadith. We would never know how to pray, fast, pay zakah, or make pilgrimage without the illustration found in Hadith, for these acts of worship remain as abstract imperatives in the Qur&#8217;an.

3. The Qur&#8217;an tells us the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has taught not only the Book but also the wisdom (See Qur&#8217;an: 96:2; 33:34; 4:113, etc.) As Imam Shafi`i stated, the wisdom mentioned here is the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); so if we were to reject the Hadith, we would be rejecting the Qur&#8217;an itself.

4. The Qur&#8217;an tells us to obey the Messenger and abide by his decision:

[But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.] (An-Nisaa&#8217; 4:65)

[So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah&#8217;s Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers.] (Al-Ma&#8217;idah 5:48)

Where do we find such decisions except in the Hadith?

Last but not least, the Qur&#8217;an orders the faithful to emulate the role model of the Messenger and reckons it as the only way to gain the pleasure of Allah. It is therefore imperative that we look up to his morals and behavior and emulate them in our lives. We can never do so without studying the Hadith. It is most illuminating in this respect to learn that when `A&#8217;ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) was asked to describe the character of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), her definitive answer was, &#8220;His character was the Qur&#8217;an.&#8221; In other words, he personified the best ideals and values of the Qur&#8217;an. How could we then neglect the Hadith, which alone can lead us to the precise ways in which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) exemplified the Qur&#8217;anic ideals.

Having said this, however, we must never fall into the temptation of taking all that is found in the works of Hadith as being authentic or genuine. Hadith at all times must be evaluated by the well-established rules of validation as established by the great scholars. Such firm criteria include the following: If a certain hadith is contrary to the well-established principles of the Qur&#8217;an or sound reason, it must be rejected (since, obviously, it cannot be authentic.)
 
@Talon

Good stuff, you answered well though I believe from the earlier comments that some posters on indienne side were not really interested in learning about islam but finding weakness in gods words and I say to them good luck, we have spent 1400 years and still have not found 1 mistake but hey boss give it a go. As for the discussion earlier, while democracy coupled with pseudo European secularism(not a bad thing dont misunderstand me) may be new in l'asie or specifically inde, the early islamic period experienced a rudimentary form of a social democratic welfare state. In the later period specifically the caliphate era, no all muslims supported that monarchial system including the philospher al-furabi, which I know even indienne respect especially some of his works in the realm of social philosophy. The interested thing about him was that he was very self-critical of the caliphates of that time, and its a delight to read his critisicm as it reflects that there were vocal opposition in academia back then and reflects their strength in society, i believe the abbasids were in power and did take academia seriously. The thing is there is no system set in stone, god tells us to observe this universe and seek answers/knowledge and as aside note, have to give credit to the first 4 caliphates for establishing a social welfare state in that era with limited knowledge in that part of the world. Unfortunately so called muslims overseas have degress in progress and are stuck in 12th century instead of studying and coming up with a better system to change this world for the better. Hopefully that answers all the queries @hinduguy, if you have more rhetoric questions aside from brother zarvan , you can always ask moi, armstrong(very knowledgeable) and other guys on forum, instead of picking on the same guy the entire time.

Good day
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dear , if I am wrong , correct me , The Holy Quran was not compiled or written during the time of prophet as per my understanding , it was compiled in the current form during the third or fourth Khalifa

It had compiled later in the age of 3rd caliph but some companions had written it during the time of Prophet (PBUH)
 
talibani school of thoughts ?
sir please don't complaint if other countries where Muslims are minority, implement their religious laws on you, force you to follow it, charge you for blasphemy etc.

sir YOU don't complaint about banning of halal meat, banning of cow killing, etc too.

In Islam all non-Muslims are free to perform their religious activities ... Who had told to you that non-Muslims are restricted to do so ?????
 
&#1610;&#1614;&#1600;&#1648;&#1619;&#1571;&#1614;&#1610;&#1617;&#1615;&#1729;&#1614;&#1575; &#1649;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1584;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#1569;&#1614;&#1575;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1619;&#1575;&#1618; &#1571;&#1614;&#1591;&#1616;&#1610;&#1593;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1649;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614; &#1608;&#1614;&#1571;&#1614;&#1591;&#1616;&#1610;&#1593;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1649;&#1604;&#1585;&#1617;&#1614;&#1587;&#1615;&#1608;&#1604;&#1614; &#1608;&#1614;&#1571;&#1615;&#1608;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1609; &#1649;&#1604;&#1761;&#1571;&#1614;&#1605;&#1761;&#1585;&#1616; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1761;*&#1750; &#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606; &#1578;&#1614;&#1606;&#1614;&#1600;&#1648;&#1586;&#1614;&#1593;&#1761;&#1578;&#1615;&#1605;&#1761; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1588;&#1614;&#1609;&#1761;&#1569;&#1613;&#1772; &#1601;&#1614;&#1585;&#1615;&#1583;&#1617;&#1615;&#1608;&#1607;&#1615; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1649;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1649;&#1604;&#1585;&#1617;&#1614;&#1587;&#1615;&#1608;&#1604;&#1616; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606; &#1603;&#1615;&#1606;&#1578;&#1615;&#1605;&#1761; &#1578;&#1615;&#1572;&#1761;&#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1576;&#1616;&#1649;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1649;&#1604;&#1761;&#1610;&#1614;&#1608;&#1761;&#1605;&#1616; &#1649;&#1604;&#1761;&#1571;&#1614;&#1582;&#1616;&#1585;&#1616;*&#1754; &#1584;&#1614;&#1650;&#1604;&#1616;&#1603;&#1614; &#1582;&#1614;&#1610;&#1761;&#1585;&#1612;&#1772; &#1608;&#1614;&#1571;&#1614;&#1581;&#1761;&#1587;&#1614;&#1606;&#1615; &#1578;&#1614;&#1571;&#1761;&#1608;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1575;&#1611;
(&#1637;&#1641;:&#1587;&#1615;&#1608;&#1761;&#1585;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1617;&#1616;&#1587;&#1614;&#1575;&#1569;)

O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (Surah An-Nisa :59)
 
These biggest facts were non-existent 1400 years ago that means everyone prior to that is defacto member of hell!
This line can be only by that person who is a real big ignorant Sir and also who likes this post MR HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET OF ISLAM not the first and founder of it HAZRAT ADAM AS is the first PROPHET of ALLAH and those who followed the commandments of their PROPHETS would go the heaven but after HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW every one has to follow HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW @mafiya before liking something read about Islam

Implement Islamic Economy system and make your country die economically so people start despising Islamic and another Revolution will come to change Islamic system.. That's what common sense says. Well surely you dont have common sense. So no point arguing, Coz you wont accept that One can not survive economically by implementing Islamic system as it is

Sir Islamic economic system is the best for the world and for ending poverty but jahil touts of USA only talk **** against it we will have to implement Islamic economic system and only than we can make progress but students of Abu Juhal have lost their brain to understand it
 
Last edited by a moderator:
In Islam all non-Muslims are free to perform their religious activities ... Who had told to you that non-Muslims are restricted to do so ?????

if you would read all my posts, You will know I am not talking about non Muslim's religious activities but about a set up where non believers and non Muslims also ruled by Islamic laws, a system where Muslims are favoured by it's law. I was supporting secular statues of the state against a state where a particular religious laws are adopted by state.so please don't come up with statements like yours that " others are freed to do this, that or what ever you allow them to do with in the frame of Islamic law "
 
Where would you get other directions that how would you rinse the mouth … Put water in the nose to complete ablution … What will you recite during formation … bow … And prostrate … How much ratio should you pay of Zakat … What acts should be during performing Hajj … Which things break your fast and which things do your fast much perfect…????????
All above things we could know through Ahadith … I think ..

Dear as i already said, All the mandatory things and guidance for that is there i.e. Ablution is mandatory for Prayer and guidance for this already there

005:006 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

Re-read the highlighted part, Guidance is simple, clear & complete, even a kid can understand it and know how to wash face, hands till arms, feets till ankles etc.- If you fulfill these requirement than your Ablution is complete as per God's order. Purpose of this is not to make life difficult but cleanness . Now, You are saying that this is not complete method (God forgot many important things to mention) and i must look for Hadith, but still there is difference between sect on this simple and most basic thing, everyone have a Hadith to prove his method is correct, When i read the method from Quran it was simple & easy for me, When i read the Hadith's, i am confuse who to follow - Shias or Sunnis. Ok, i Sunnis are majority lets go with them, now who to follow Hanafi or Shafi, whatever i follow i am not sure about it because everyone have Hadiths and tales to prove his method is correct. Ok maybe Islam is not that much easy as God & Prophet (PBUH) claimed - i should contact Mullahs - Now every mullah tells me more complex details, One say that i should start rubbing my head from front to backwards than also put my index fingers in my ears, second says that no you should use thumbs not index finger and than rub my head and also neck, third say you are not rubbing your neck correctly, you must use backside of your hands for this purpose and list goes on, and everyone says my Ablution is not complete if don't follow his method, Well Thank you telling my correct methods - I have excuse now - I will say to God that you didn't told me complete method in Quran and also you didn't told which sect to follow - So i didn't knew what is the correct method of Ablution that's why i didn't offered my prayers as Ablution is necessary for prayer.

Same is the case with others - I can quote you thing related Prayer, Zakat & Hajj but if most straight forward instruction of simple thing Ablution can't convince you than how can Quran convince you for other major things.
 
Sir Islamic economic system is the best for the world and for ending poverty but jahil touts of USA only talk **** against it we will have to implement Islamic economic system and only than we can make progress but students of Abu Juhal have lost their brain to understand it

Will you enlighten me about Islamic economic system? and comparison with current system? But be precise and to the point. Don't google and copy & past pages which you yourself don't read what's written.
 
Personally my views on the selected topic have already been shared. However I would like to add that there is growing acceptance and tolerance for secularism in Pakistani society. I have noticed this personally. There would be times when I would suggest the concept and people would abuse me and swear at me too, claiming I am an anti-Islamic person with Western interests at heart. Now a lot of people, even if they disagree, are keen to listen to the other point of view.

I believe this comes with the situation. When bombs are going off and you are unable to protect your people-people become more open to alternate suggestions. The bigger problem is for people who openly refer to themselves as atheists or come across as non-religious. I have seen some of these people and the difficulties they face in this regard and wrote this article on it approximately an year ago but it was more about the opposite side-the rise of atheism due to intolerance.:

Militancy & Intolerance causing a rise in Atheism in Pakistan
 
That is rather stupid and absurd!

I do not wish to sound rude but in some sections of the forum they can be a nuisance and @tarrar only expresses his frustration in this regard-especially when the purpose of the threads poster is to involve Pakistanis in the debate about local policy. In these threads the Indians largely have no stake.

It depends on the purpose of the poster. For me I wish to find solutions to our issues instead of just highlight issues. I do not see this site as a place of debate but as a scholarly forum for the discussion and eventual resolution of Pakistani issues. I have gained a great amount of information too for a number of reports I sent to government and other organizations.

I do not believe the Indians are a nuisance everywhere though, including this thread. At times they can enrich the forum with useful comments and an alternative thought process unless they are either deriding the poster or the country.

About secularism for example I wish to listen to their opinion, though I have noticed a lot of communalism in modern Indians.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
About secularism for example I wish to listen to their opinion, though I have noticed a lot of communalism in modern Indians.
A secular pakistan would not be good since pakistan was created for muslims and islam is also one of the major factors holding your nation together. But you guys should take some steps in ablolishing Zia era laws like mainly that blasphemy law, decrease interference of religious leaders in decision making related to domestic and foreign affairs, increase the representation of minorities in government and other areas but dont get too secular since it will increase amount of communalism in your country like mine maintain fine balance between secular and religious state
 
Personally my views on the selected topic have already been shared. However I would like to add that there is growing acceptance and tolerance for atheism in Pakistani society. I have noticed this personally. There would be times when I would suggest the concept and people would abuse me and swear at me too, claiming I am an anti-Islamic person with Western interests at heart. Now a lot of people, even if they disagree, are keen to listen to the other point of view.

I believe this comes with the situation. When bombs are going off and you are unable to protect your people-people become more open to alternate suggestions. The bigger problem is for people who openly refer to themselves as atheists or come across as non-religious. I have seen some of these people and the difficulties they face in this regard and wrote this article on it approximately an year ago but it was more about the opposite side-the rise of atheism due to intolerance.:

Militancy & Intolerance causing a rise in Atheism in Pakistan

I agree with you except term Atheism - Because those people still believe in God, Prophet (PBUH) and Quran but don't follow. So, they don't fall in category of Atheists. And yes main reason is extremism and distortion of religion to suite personal goals and made it almost unpractical.
 
Back
Top Bottom