Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier-Lemon?

[Titanium]

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - AUGUST 11, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

India's air defence ship gains new momentum
RAHUL BEDI JDW Correspondent
New Delhi
Additional reporting Paolo Valpolini JDW Correspondent
Rome

India has restarted its delayed indigenous aircraft carrier programme by signing two contracts with Italy's Fincantieri SpA for ship design and propulsion system integration.

Indian defence sources said the agreement with Fincantieri's naval vessel division includes supplying the engineering and design for the 32,000-35,000t carrier air defence ship (ADS) that is being built by Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) in southern India.

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) invited design bids by France's DCN International, which originally provided the blueprint for an indigenously built carrier of around 18,000t-20,000t in the mid-1980s, and Spain's Izar Construcciones Navales as well as Fincantieri.

 

[Goodperson]

Indian defense acquisitions are generally cost overrun. It shows these are not properly worked out. As I remember the deal for aircraft carrier refurbishment was about USD 700 million. Now if they need another USD 1 billion than those people who negotiated the deal and calculated the budget figures were not up to the task. Simple as that. Your project should not be overrun by more than 100% cost estimates and if this happens than you are incompetent.

The price of acquisition of such equipment is going up around the world, Indian system hass become more transparent hence you all can see such reports published in forums. However same cannot be true for military government.

 

[Contrarian]

At Titanium...Did you not know about the fall of dollar both against the Ruble and Rupee? There had to be a cost escalation... And all the above pts in my last post remain valid barring the weight.

 

[Titanium]

I do know that the costs donot increase proportionally to the weight. The point is not new or old here, the point is that the IAC will be only in its basic state when its construction is finished.

You mean only hull/frame is going to cost Rs3000 Crore, which you are getting free from russia --with Love?

The Navy will give additional funds to put the necessary electronics, defence suites, networks, etc, etc on the IAC. While Gorshkov will have all these things done in the amount mentioned above, not to reiterate that it will be of almost twice the weight of the IAC.

How navie can you get ...

The Indian Navy classifies the IAC as an Air Defence Ship.

No dear wrong again, read Admiral arun Prakash column:

The project received financial approval
of the Government of India in January
2003, and first steel was ceremonially cut
in Cochin Shipyard Ltd on 11 April 2005,
when the ADS was re-designated as the
‘IAC’ or indigenous aircraft carrier.

 

[Titanium]

I do know that the costs donot increase proportionally to the weight. The point is not new or old here, the point is that the IAC will be only in its basic state when its construction is finished.
The Navy will give additional funds to put the necessary electronics, defence suites, networks, etc, etc on the IAC.

If what you are saying has any value, then Chinese got a deal in 67,500 tons vyryag carrier for just $20 Million, for which India will spend like what Rs.3000 Crore (35 ton class)?

 

[su-47]

The chinese got the varyag without any modifications. they'll have to completely refurbish it if they are to use it. That'll cost millions, possibly billions, of dollars

 

[ejaz007]

If we assume that both China and India shall spend the same amount of money on these aircraft carriers even then China has struck a much better deal since they shall have 70 ton aircraft carrier against India’s 35 ton.

 

[Sena Lee]

The chinese got the varyag without any modifications. they'll have to completely refurbish it if they are to use it. That'll cost millions, possibly billions, of dollars

The Varyag would be used as a testbed for IAC designs and construction. The fate of the Varyag currently is a training carrier and it won't be a fully operational carrier for sea missions.

Rumours has it that China is currently making their first IAC.

 

[Bull]

If what you are saying has any value, then Chinese got a deal in 67,500 tons vyryag carrier for just $20 Million, for which India will spend like what Rs.3000 Crore (35 ton class)?

67,500 tonnes!!!

Vyrag is just a frame, no engines nothing. Do you mean India is paying 3000 cr for something similar?

 

[Bull]

If we assume that both China and India shall spend the same amount of money on these aircraft carriers even then China has struck a much better deal since they shall have 70 ton aircraft carrier against India’s 35 ton.

70 ton AC that wont sail out of its port, well at less than half the cost you can build a air strip on the port. Both does the same job!!!

 

[Titanium]

After lying dormant for 15 years on the dockyard rusting, I wonder is there any worth for the engine and equipment in Gorshkav apart from the hull.

 

[Neo]

India demands answers on Gorshkov​

NEW DELHI: With its patience wearing thin over Russia's evasive behaviour on huge delays in the modernisation refit of decommissioned aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, New Delhi has sought some firm answers from Moscow now.

"So far, there has been an utter lack of clarity on Russia's part. We are now seeking concrete answers on the technical and financial audit of the entire Gorshkov project," said a source.

Defence minister A K Antony, on his part, also did some "tough talking" during his mid-October visit to Moscow about "issues relating to life cycle support" of Russian-origin weapon systems and "the delay in refurbishment" of Admiral Gorshkov, holding that these were "a cause of concern" for India.

The Gorshkov issue, in fact, is even likely to be taken up during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Russia later this month. "We might get some answers then," said the source.

The 44,570-tonne Admiral Gorshkov was initially supposed to join Indian Navy by August 2008 as per the $1.5 billion package deal signed with Russia in January 2004. The deal includes 16 MiG-29K 'Fulcrum' supersonic fighters and a mix of Ka-31 and Ka-28 helicopters to operate from its carrier's deck.

But the assessment now is that India will not be getting the carrier, already rechristened INS Vikramaditya, anytime before 2010. Any delay beyond that will adversely affect India's plan to further bolster its "blue-water" capabilities in Indian Ocean and beyond.

For one, the country's solitary aircraft carrier, the ageing 28,000-tonne INS Viraat, is on its last legs now. For another, construction of the 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier at Cochin Shipyard has also been delayed to 2015 or so.

India cannot buy an aircraft carrier off-the-shelf and Admiral Gorshkov remains the only available option at present. Even earlier, as first reported by TOI, Antony had written to his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov to seek his personal intervention in the matter.

Antony had expressed the hope that Moscow will honour its contractual obligations regarding Gorshkov, which is berthed at the Sevmash shipyard at Severodvinsk in north Russia. Though Serdyukov has himself reviewed the project, Moscow is yet to provide any answers, sources said.

Russia, on its part, contends it had grossly underestimated the refit cost of the partly-burnt Admiral Gorshkov, which was decommissioned by the Russian Navy a decade ago.

Technical problems, too, continue to dog the carrier's refit programme, which includes removal of the missile launchers on the bow to build a ski-jump at a 14.3 degree angle for the MiG-29Ks.

It is also to be fitted with new-generation air defence and other weapon systems, new engines, eight diesel boilers with generators, electrical machinery, communication systems, distillation plants and the like. The Gorshkov project, apart from cost escalation of Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and tardy support of spares for acquired weapon systems, has emerged as a major irritant in the otherwise strong military relationship between India and Russia.

The total value of several ongoing projects as well as new programmes and purchases in the pipeline with Russia - which include Sukhoi-30MKIs, T-90S main-battle tanks, Talwar-class stealth frigates and the new fifth-generation fighter aircraft - is estimated to be well over $10 billion.

Then, of course, there is the hush-hush Rs 2,600 crore deal to lease from next year the nuclear-powered Akula-II attack submarine for 10 years, for which Indian sailors have already undergone training in Russia.

India demands answers on Gorshkov-India-The Times of India

 

[Bull]

Well this sour relationship would help IA/IN/IAF realise the importance of inducting HAL/DRDO products. The officials in Ruskie payrolls would find it even harder to churn out anti indegineous stories.

 

[Sena Lee]

Has India got any plans to make their own IAC?

 

[Bull]

Has India got any plans to make their own IAC?

They are already building one.