A political solution for Kashmir and lasting peace for India and Pakistan

[MultaniGuy]

Pakistan added Northern regions with Pakistan?
Where did you get that from?

Clearly you're confused, because Pakistan has not including them in Pakistan despite massive demands from the local people.

Pakistan has looked into various options, to try and ensure the people enjoy greater political agency without it effecting the Jammu and Kashmir dispute. That is not same as making them constitutionally a part of Pakistan. Please do not spread misunderstandings.

Personally I believe plebiscite is the only fair way to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

However since India keeps avoiding that option, even though Nehru promised the world for a plebiscite to happen.

Looks like the Indiots will have to learn the hard way.

Pakistan keeps getting stronger by the way. Eventually we will take Kashmir from those Indiots through force.

You are right, the Indian Establishment and many citizens won't accept that proposal. So to get the debate started Pakistan should again put forward Musharraf's Four Point Formula and then both countries should look at a wider, region-scope progressive solution such as mine.

I disagree with your nonsensical proposal.

If it wasn't for Indian arrogance, the Kashmir dispute would have been resolved by plebiscite decades ago.

It is India refusing to hold a plesbicite. So be it then.

It is disputed territory according to the United Nations.
On day China and Pakistan will go to war with India.

That is what many Political Scientists and intellectuals pointed out.

Just a matter of time. Soon China will be the world's largest economy in nominal GDP terms.

 

[Battlion25]

Personally I believe plebiscite is the only fair way to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

However since India keeps avoiding that option, even though Nehru promised the world for a plebiscite to happen.

Looks like the Indiots will have to learn the hard way.

Pakistan keeps getting stronger by the way. Eventually we will take Kashmir from those Indiots through force.

I disagree with your nonsensical proposal.

If it wasn't for Indian arrogance, the Kashmir dispute would have been resolved by plebiscite decades ago.

It is India refusing to hold a plesbicite. So be it then.

It is disputed territory according to the United Nations.
On day China and Pakistan will go to war with India.

That is what many Political Scientists and intellectuals pointed out.

Just a matter of time. Soon China will be the world's largest economy in nominal GDP terms.

Kashmir is irrelevant this is the truth but if India miscalculate we will have to go for everything not just irrelevant Kashmir as price of payment for the miscalculation.. Besides there is no political solution their heart is black to you and they only respect power period and always have. They only respect or should I say fear your power that is it. THey only understand the language of power no reasoning and I have seen some Pakistanis try to reason with them example in the communal stuff they don't understand such thing but they understand only the language of power

 

[MultaniGuy]

Kashmir is irrelevant this is the truth but if the India miscalculate we will have to go for everything not just irrelevant Kashmir as price of payment for the miscalculation.. Besides there is no political solution their heart is black to you and they only respect power period and always have. They only respect or should I see fear your power that is it. THey only understand the language of power no reasoning and I have seen some Pakistanis try to reason with them example in the communal stuff they don't understand such thing but they understand only the language of power

Exactly. There were 75 years to negotiate. It is India's fault for not holding a plebiscite.
As a Pakistani Nationalist, I am of the opinion war is the only solution, because of India's arrogance.

Even China has a stake in Kashmir. People tend to forget that. China claims Aksai Chin, Demchok, and Shaksgam Valley, and South Tibet.

 

[peagle]

Personally I believe plebiscite is the only fair way to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

However since India keeps avoiding that option, even though Nehru promised the world for a plebiscite to happen.

Looks like the Indiots will have to learn the hard way.

Pakistan keeps getting stronger by the way. Eventually we will take Kashmir from those Indiots through force.

I do understand what you are saying, but in fairness, this has gone on for long enough. We are sitting outside telling them we will always stand by your sides, but it is the Kashmiris who are suffering Indian oppression.

I do agree with you, but enough is enough, and if you look around the world, most if not all disputes are resolved only through dialogue, otherwise it never stops, and I do not wish for Kashmiris to suffer any longer, I think Pakistani state has come to the same conclusion.

Right now, I am talking as a rational being, because in this condition I am able to provide a valid judgement. But as humans we are emotional creatures, in an emotional state, I swear I would be willing to see the world burn, to fight for Kashmiri brothers and sisters. I am afraid of that side of myself, so it is better to provide solutions when all faculties are intact.

 

[waz]

Not needed, the time for talking to them is well over. No way will India agree to anything now, hence the time for other measures.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Not needed, the time for talking to them is well over. No way will India agree to anything now, hence the time for other measures.

Exactly my views as well @waz bhai. These Indiots will have to learn the hard way. They just want land. They do not want to solve any problem in a fair manner.

 

[Mr.Green]

I think your idea of status quo is a reality since Musharraf's time and Kashmir is on a back burner since then. Same thing now in pak national security plan of geo-economics. However, India must allow open conversion of hindus and dalits and buddhists to islam. The sultans of delhi and afghanistan gave full protection to the pirs who had set up dargahs in india. if there is restriction to conversion by bjp or rss then india should be prepared for unending war.this is a priciple of shariat which has been in practice since the start. just like communism, islam seeks to expand by thought and if that is stopped, then by power.
@MultaniGuy

 

[Meengla]

I am a pragmatist & a realist. Pakistan is not likely to be strong enough to take the Indian occupied Kashmir by force any time in the foreseeable future. On the other hand, regardless of the party in power, India is never going to ‘Gift’ IOK to Pakistan.

In view of the above, the only feasible solution is what was proposed by Musharraf; that is, to make the communication & travel between the two parts so easy for the “Kashmiris” that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA- Canadian border.

At least in my humble opinion, whatever we as Pakistanis or the Indians think & wish, Kashmir problem is not going to disappear any time soon.

Sensible.
Make the LoC irrelevant for Kashmir people. Prevent either country to change the demographics in their respective parts of Kashmir. Preserve Pakistan's water rights. All that is far more do-able than the crazy OP idea of India and Pakistan having similar political systems. Also, OP's idea that India would greatly reduce its forces is also not likely.
I believe the Kashmir issue is far more resolvable than issues like Israel-Palestine or Russia-Ukraine-NATO or China-Taiwan-West

 

[MultaniGuy]

I do understand what you are saying, but in fairness, this has gone on for long enough. We are sitting outside telling them we will always stand by your sides, but it is the Kashmiris who are suffering Indian oppression.

I do agree with you, but enough is enough, and if you look around the world, most if not all disputes are resolved only through dialogue, otherwise it never stops, and I do not wish for Kashmiris to suffer any longer, I think Pakistani state has come to the same conclusion.

Right now, I am talking as a rational being, because in this condition I am able to provide a valid judgement. But as humans we are emotional creatures, in an emotional state, I swear I would be willing to see the world burn, to fight for Kashmiri brothers and sisters. I am afraid of that side of myself, so it is better to provide solutions when all faculties are intact.

Back in the 1960s, there was a compromise called the Chenab formula.

Pakistan gets all of Kashmir while India gets land south of the Chenab river. Pakistan gets what it should have gotten while India saves face.

Some people say this is the best solution to the problem. This is the best compromise by both sides.

However I am still of the opinion that plebiscite is the only way to solve the Kashmir dispute.

Had Kashmir princely state been governed as a normal province it would have gone to Pakistan at partition.

Kashmir princely state at partition was 75%-80% Muslim. We should get all of Kashmir.

Nehru that dog was being dishonest.

Even I am being dishonest to my fellow Pakistani brethren by accepting the Chenab formula.

We should get all of Kashmir

Sensible.
Make the LoC irrelevant for Kashmir people. Prevent either country to change the demographics in their respective parts of Kashmir. Preserve Pakistan's water rights. All that is far more do-able than the crazy OP idea of India and Pakistan having similar political systems. Also, OP's idea that India would greatly reduce its forces is also not likely.
I believe the Kashmir issue is far more resolvable than issues like Israel-Palestine or Russia-Ukraine-NATO or China-Taiwan-West

Not possible now, since India revoked Article 370 that was an issue on Jammu and Kashmir or Indian occupied Kashmir.

My theory is that there will be a regional war including Pakistan + China versus India.

The time for negotiation has gone long enough. I agree with @waz bhai. The Kashmir dispute can be solved in a matter of seconds by applying the plebiscite method.

It is India which is being dishonest. We Pakistanis have every right to Kashmir.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Sensible.
Make the LoC irrelevant for Kashmir people. Prevent either country to change the demographics in their respective parts of Kashmir. Preserve Pakistan's water rights. All that is far more do-able than the crazy OP idea of India and Pakistan having similar political systems. Also, OP's idea that India would greatly reduce its forces is also not likely.
I believe the Kashmir issue is far more resolvable than issues like Israel-Palestine or Russia-Ukraine-NATO or China-Taiwan-West

Indus Water Treaty covers Pakistan's water rights.

Well, it is not practical. The idea of referendum / plebiscite in the Kashmir region, like I indicated in the OP, won't be acceptable to the Indian Establishment and to many of the Indian masses who sadly have become ultra-nationalist. These particular Indians see the India-administered Kashmir region in an emotional way even if those emotions are misplaced and not caring of the emotions of the Kashmiris living in Kashmir. Some religio-nationalist Indians members of PDF have posted in the past that the Kashmiris wanting independence can go to Pakistan. So do you think such Indians will agree to a referendum ? There are three parties to the Kashmir conflict : Kashmiris, Pakistan and India, so all these parties have to be offered a logical solution. And if the solution will benefit India and Pakistan more broadly then more the better and that is my solution.

In 2001 for the Agra Summit, Musharraf had brought his Four Point Formula for Kashmir. It was a reasonable and practical one and even it did not propose a referendum. Musharraf had written down the points knowing that it would also be a big task to convince the Pakistanis back home to accept the formula. But it was a Kashmiri leader himself, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, and also the then Indian deputy PM, LK Advani, who rejected the formula. If the formula had been implemented we would have seen a peaceful Kashmir by now.

All in all, a referendum is not possible practically.



Well, the first line was the suggestion by Gaddafi too in 2009 and that suggestion was cheered by the Kashmiris. He called for an independent Baathist state. Perhaps Baathists from Iraq and Syria could have helped the Kashmiris in making a progressive state. Maybe it could have served as an example for India and Pakistan to see the socio-economic and political benefits of living in a Socialist country. But again, I would say that instead of having a neighboring Socialist country why not India and Pakistan themselves become a Socialist or ideally Communist countries ? That is the essence of my OP. Please look at this proposal of mine for a progressive socio-economic system and this thread about how the pre-2011 Libyan Jamahiriya political system, a true democracy, was in action. Imagine these progressive systems for India and Pakistan. Will solve Kashmir automatically.



Bhai jaan, why is your record stuck ? You are constantly talking about war and such. Be practical please. Please read above reply to Musalman.

Give your reasoning why referendum cannot be done? What is your alternative solution to the Kashmir dispute.

Name another fair way to solve the problem. Otherwise you are just beating around the bush.

Don't worry India's days are numbered.

 

[MultaniGuy]

My forefathers split plenty of blood for Pakistan, we don't want an independent Kashmir, nor should you.
If it wen't for our actions (freeing AJK) Pakistan's existence was questionable.
India will never agree to anything now, and it's belligerence has got worse.
The Valley and surrounding areas come to Pakistan, nothing else is acceptable.

I agree with you. The only reason Musharraf was looking for other solutions was because he was pressured by George w Bush's war on Terrorism.
Same here my forefathers sacrificed their lives for Pakistan. So Muslims could live in a Muslim environment.

Indians have no right in Kashmir.

 

[MultaniGuy]

I am a pragmatist & a realist. Pakistan is not likely to be strong enough to take the Indian occupied Kashmir by force any time in the foreseeable future. On the other hand, regardless of the party in power, India is never going to ‘Gift’ IOK to Pakistan.

In view of the above, the only feasible solution is what was proposed by Musharraf; that is, to make the communication & travel between the two parts so easy for the “Kashmiris” that the border becomes irrelevant. Something similar to the USA- Canadian border.

At least in my humble opinion, whatever we as Pakistanis or the Indians think & wish, Kashmir problem is not going to disappear any time soon.

I disagree with your opinion. With your flawed logic we may as well accept the LOC as an international border with your "pragmatic logic."

You are acting as if you are still living in 2001.
This is now 2022.
Pakistan is stronger than ever before with a population of 240 million people now.


@waz and I reached the same conclusion since India is not willing to compromise or implement the fairest way to solve the Kashmir dispute which is the plebiscite matter.

 

[peagle]

Back in the 1960s, there was a compromise called the Chenab formula.
View attachment 811359

Pakistan gets all of Kashmir while India gets land south of the Chenab river. Pakistan gets what it should have gotten while India saves face.

Some people say this is the best solution to the problem. This is the best compromise by both sides.

However I am still of the opinion that plebiscite is the only way to solve the Kashmir dispute.

Had Kashmir princely state been governed as a normal province it would have gone to Pakistan at partition.

Kashmir princely state at partition was 75%-80% Muslim. We should get all of Kashmir.

Nehru that dog was being dishonest.

Even I am being dishonest to my fellow Pakistani brethren by accepting the Chenab formula.

We should get all of Kashmir


Not possible now, since India revoked Article 370 that was an issue on Jammu and Kashmir or Indian occupied Kashmir.

My theory is that there will be a regional war including Pakistan + China versus India.

The time for negotiation has gone long enough. I agree with @waz bhai. The Kashmir dispute can be solved in a matter of seconds by applying the plebiscite method.

It is India which is being dishonest. We Pakistanis have every right to Kashmir.

Please remember, the actual Pakistani position, which I like and support is that we are not demanding Kashmir, our demand is that the people of Kashmir should have the right to choose their future. There is a clear difference that people constantly misunderstand.

Demanding Kashmir has never been our demand, but giving the people of Kashmir their right to choose their future is our demand.

Personally, I think this has gone on for long enough, too much blood has been spilt, that's Kashmiri blood.
The best thing is to allow the five regions of Jammu and Kashmir to choose their own futures. That's the Kashmir Valley, Azad Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh and Gilgit Baltistan. That I think is a good position for a peaceful solution.

 

[S.Y.A]

Give muslim majority areas to pakistan, india can keep non-muslim majority areas, what is there to argue about? but, of course, arrogance blinds indians.

 

[SuperStar20]

Give muslim majority areas to pakistan, india can keep non-muslim majority areas, what is there to argue about? but, of course, arrogance blinds indians.

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