A Path to peace

[I.R.A]

Hi,
Sir,

Iqbal is old news---his time came---it achieved what needed to be done---His time is gone----. In this day and age---his philosophy does not hold much---if he was alive---he would have told the Pakistanis the same thing----.

I have his books---it is just an old story---that was told once an cannot be repeated.

Dear Iqbal is all times relevant in context of Pakistan for me he is no old story he is needed more in these times.

And I am sorry to all expat Pakistanis and you. I should not have said what I said but somehow a Khan made my temper go up. I will most happily share my background and intro but not on Public forum.

 

[Levina]

@Gufi
This is an excellent article, there's not a single point you 've missed. I liked your broad mindedness and your perspective, frankly its your clarity of thoughts that amazes me.The solutions to the problems Pakistan is facing right now do sound easy on paper but we do know that its going to take another decade for things to normalize. But then somebody should bring the change and everyone waits for someone else to bring the change. Then it becomes the story of everybody,somebody and nobody.
Your article makes me sanguine that the moderates 're rising and for good.
Thanks for tagging me here.

@Jungibaaz bhai I must tell you that I loved your post on this thread. You were definitely brusque about whats wrong in Pakistan today yet your concern was evident.But then bhai what can occlude Pakistan from progressing when its torch bearers 're men like you guys.
A peaceful and progressing neighborhood would be in India's interest too.
All the best!!

 

[Developereo]

the nation [...] united

Great writeup.

However, I disagree with this statement of yours.

I have argued with non-Pakistanis on this forum to defend Pakistani unity, but the reality is that modern Pakistan has failed to build a sense of national unity. Whatever sense of Pakistaniat we had existed until the 80s but has evaporated since.

Today most Pakistanis see themselves as Sunnis or Shias or PPP-ers or MQM-ers or whatever. That is why there is little lasting concern when something happens to members of "another" group.

Until Pakistan build a sense of national unity, nothing will save it. Your points are valid, but any action against troublemakers will be seen as scapegoating that particular community.

 

[Gufi]

Until Pakistan build a sense of national unity, nothing will save it. Your points are valid, but any action against troublemakers will be seen as scapegoating that particular community.

oh i agree totally... till i got to Pakistan i did not know there were so many religious sects... neither did i know politics was a circus... or that so much hate could be found just because of castes or where one is on the map... Most of these are difficult to achieve but they are realistic and keep our identity as Pakistanis intact

 

[Developereo]

oh i agree totally... till i got to Pakistan i did not know there were so many religious sects... neither did i know politics was a circus... or that so much hate could be found just because of castes or where one is on the map... Most of these are difficult to achieve but they are realistic and keep our identity as Pakistanis intact

The divisions are not just along religious sects. Pakistan is divided along political party lines (Zardari fans, Sharif fans, IK fans, Musharraf fans, etc.) and along ethnic lines.

To take your example of disarming the civilian population, it won't work because the mainstream political parties use the criminal gangs as their foot soldiers. No political party will allow "their" criminals to be disarmed, which means that no criminals will be disarmed or punished or fear the law.

Same with mullahs and madrassas. As soon as you go after mullahs, that particular religious sect will feel that they are being unfairly targeted and the government is "working for" the other sects.

People talk about Pakistan, but there is scant sense of common unity, This is a failure of the government, media and education system and, sadly, I don't know any quick fix. I don't even know a medium term fix. The sense of Pakistaniat that we had in the past took decades to disintegrate and it will take a whole generation to build up again. That is, if we start rebuilding it, and there is no sign that anyone is even trying to build it at a national level.

 

[I.R.A]

People talk about Pakistan, but there is scant sense of common unity, This is a failure of the government, media and education system and, sadly, I don't know any quick fix.

You will see that unity in cricket match against India only.


Terrorism is not the only ill we are facing, sadly there is lots of corruption at each level of society, our development project priorities are all wrong, rule of law is only for people who are weak and poor, we as a Nation do not respect laws, we go after stupid slogans like "Bhutto ubi zinda hai" and others invented by PTI and PMLN. Our Police is useless and majority are corrupt, we always look to our army in the end. We blame madrasas but we do not build schools. When it comes to responsibility and accountability we blame others.

Solution in my view is

• Get rid of these political dynasties ASAP, they are holding people hostage and will not let some competent person to take charge
• Elect the MPAs but select a neutral PM and President who commands all these MPAs. We can have an institution in place who will produce future PMs, Presidents and their advisers. This institution should select candidates all over Pakistan based on their strict tests and exams.
• There should always be a referendum on development projects so critical projects can be decided timely otherwise other options explored
• If we have to hang Mullahs then also round up all these politician scum bags and drown them somewhere in sea. Their job was to make regulations and policies and whenever they were presented with opportunity to do so they failed and looted the resources only.
• Privatise all Public institutions immediately except for PIA (only if we do not still need it for strategic purposes)
• Rapid reforms in laws are required, and make examples of people who think they are above law.
• The attitude” mujay janta hai may kaun hoo ya mayra bap kaun hai” needs to end and discouraged at all levels
• Finally for terrorism do not leave your youth idle anywhere in country utilise it, give it opportunities to prove its talents, if we leave them idle they surely will become tools for terrorists.

 

[Jungibaaz]

At least unlike you we the Pakistanis had balls to stay here and face whatever you wish us to face. You were the ones who deserted your homeland, you are the ones who are attracted by the West, you are the ones who preferred your personal well being over your Nation's. I had the opportunity and chance to leave my country but I chose to stay because I knew this country gave me education, gave me the love, the identification, the pride, the sense of belonging, the courage to face challenges. Though I face a lot of ill treatment, though there are many ills in my country, I know my society is corrupt from bottom to top, its hard for me to live as a law abiding citizen in this country, me and my family face danger at every step, the current status of my country and my country men sometimes gets me frustrated, but I am determined I will not leave my country, I will prefer dying here then standing in ques and begging for visas or asylums. I will stay and face both expat goons like you and these coward terrorists because I am not a deserter.

Next time when your expat a$$ wants to curse us Pakistanis just remember that you are the deserters, the cowards who preferred their own personal goals over serving their country, you can keep your investment and lectures to yourself. May be one day you will come back looking for your identity, just remember how you cursed us Pakistanis. Till then have a good western time and enjoy till it lasts.​

​

Mind what you're speaking at boyo. You don't know us coward expats. These guys will do more for you and your country than you could ever hope to do at home. That is the truth. Do not act like you know us, understand us.

We're not acting as if we're above anyone. Living abroad has made us a learn a great many things. The reason I rant is because I care. If I didn't care, you and your people would not be worth my time. I've always been overly critical and harsh with Pakistan.

Also, re-read this:

Sir,

You are a new member and welcome to the board.

Let us make something clear and set the rules. This board has been here for almost 10 years----or close to it---. One thing we don't say is----that I chose to stay back here and you have moved out or you are a deserter and the like of it.

You have your share of things and I have mine----but all nations cherish their expats and listen and learn as to how to make things better---on the top of the list is Israel and getting to #2 is India----except for pakistan.

India also had the same problem and attitude till 2000-01 and then they woke up and accepted---these expats are our asset---why are we threatening them and harassing them---. And as india wants to take the nation to a newer pleateau---Modi has asked the expats again to participate more---and what have you done---rejected them again.

If you wanted to be honest with your country---you should have gone out and worked and then come back---so that at least you had a reference point if you wanted to make a change.

I did not say that these terrorists are not musims---I did not say that a muslim cannot commit these atrocities---that is what you were saying---. Did you take a stand when 18 French engineers were killed by the terrorists----. The French had sold us the most advanced submarines in south asia---. Did you take a stand when Chinese engineers were killed----I get the answer----.

Little brother---you just have a sob story to tell---you have failed your nation---it was our money that saved you in 2001---it was because of our funds that you survived to stand to me---it was because of our resource and relationship with other nations that those nations developed a soft spot for you---. Don't shit in the cup that you drink out of---okay.

And this typical piece of poetry that you Pakistani recite in sarcasm----get rid of this POS----warriors have no time and place for poetry----it is absolute waste f paper it is written on.

Cut thru the crap and personal bullshit and write something---tell us what you are made up of---

 

[Levina]

The divisions are not just along religious sects. Pakistan is divided along political party lines (Zardari fans, Sharif fans, IK fans, Musharraf fans, etc.) and along ethnic lines.

To take your example of disarming the civilian population, it won't work because the mainstream political parties use the criminal gangs as their foot soldiers. No political party will allow "their" criminals to be disarmed, which means that no criminals will be disarmed or punished or fear the law.

Same with mullahs and madrassas. As soon as you go after mullahs, that particular religious sect will feel that they are being unfairly targeted and the government is "working for" the other sects.

People talk about Pakistan, but there is scant sense of common unity, This is a failure of the government, media and education system and, sadly, I don't know any quick fix. I don't even know a medium term fix. The sense of Pakistaniat that we had in the past took decades to disintegrate and it will take a whole generation to build up again. That is, if we start rebuilding it, and there is no sign that anyone is even trying to build it at a national level.

Is it because Pakistan lacks the right kinda leadership???
Somehow Pakistan has done well under military leaderships because they were able to unite Pakistan as one,they were more discplined (compared to the grass variety politicians) and less corrupt. Or am I wrong?
Just curious!

 

[I.R.A]

Mind what you're speaking at boyo. You don't know us coward expats. These guys will do more for you and your country than you could ever hope to do at home. That is the truth. Do not act like you know us, understand us.

We're not acting as if we're above anyone. Living abroad has made us a learn a great many things. The reason I rant is because I care. If I didn't care, you and your people would not be worth my time. I've always been overly critical and harsh with Pakistan.

Also, re-read this:

You want piece of me you dick head? go through the thread first I have already appologised unlike you expats, then come back threatening me and I will let you know what I did and what is your contribution.

 

[Jungibaaz]

@Jungibaaz bhai I must tell you that I loved your post on this thread. You were definitely brusque about whats wrong in Pakistan today yet your concern was evident.But then bhai what can occlude Pakistan from progressing when its torch bearers 're men like you guys.
A peaceful and progressing neighborhood would be in India's interest too.
All the best!!

Thanks for your kind words.

About the part in bold, the Pakistani is adamant that the issues lie in the hands of others. OP and others have done good to begin to accept that these are our own problems. But the common man does not always see it that way, anyone who can be suspected will be, and all parties are fair game for blame. I wish some politician would for once in their speeches and media broadcasts say openly that the issue lies with us, and absolve the ghosts and their spook stories of all wrong doing.

The only thing standing in the way of normalcy (note I say normalcy and not progress), are Pakistanis themselves.

And if people think that we are not to blame, implying it is out of our controls, then we're all doomed and better start lying down and accept our damned fate.

 

[VCheng]

You do not understand this country and you think that the religion is the cause of problems.

I understand Pakistan better than you may realize, and it is clear that mixing religion with matters of state is indeed the root cause of its present day problems, starting from the Objectives Resolution. The proof is in your own words:

read shikhwa jawab shikwa by Iqbal really still applicable about the mullahs stealing the religion...

This stolen religion is running rampant and is bulldozing the entire nation over the proverbial cliff.

Yes, I am correct in understanding that religion is the cause of problems in Pakistan. The fact that there is widespread denial of this inescapable fact is only more proof that the solution will not be forthcoming, leaving Pakistan on an inevitable path to implosion.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Is it because Pakistan lacks the right kinda leadership???
Somehow Pakistan has done well under military leaderships because they were able to unite Pakistan as one,they were more discplined (compared to the grass variety politicians) and less corrupt. Or am I wrong?
Just curious!

The military was the fist to undergo changes that brought about a new era in Pakistan. Post 1980's Pakistan was a product of the same formula that happened within the military in particular. The issue of political instability, which is in my opinion, the biggest killer of stability was there before.

This is the thought that comes to mind when you look back at the system we have:

Pakistani society and is a virtual guarantee that Einstein's definition of insanity will continue to apply until the whole three ring circus is finally shut down from within.

The issue of political instability is best described the above quote.

You want piece of me you dick head? go through the thread first I have already appologised unlike you expats, then come back threatening me and I will let you know what I did and what is your contribution.

God Bless you too.

 

[Levina]

.
Yes, I am correct in understanding that religion is the cause of problems in Pakistan. The fact that there is widespread denial of this inescapable fact is only more proof that the solution will not be forthcoming, leaving Pakistan on an inevitable path to implosion.

I second that, but I wish you'd made it more clear that its the "misinterpretation" of religion which is the root cause of problems.
Illiteracy also adds to the problems.

 

[I.R.A]

God Bless you too.

May he bless you too.

 

[VCheng]

I second that, but I wish you'd made it more clear that its the "misinterpretation" of religion which is the root cause of problems.
Illiteracy also adds to the problems.

Religion as a set of personal beliefs is perfectly fine. Allowing it to run matters of state and controlling society is deadly, as we can see.