A Path to peace

[Gufi]

-These people are in Pakistan and are Pakistani.

the nationalities of those who attacked the school in Peshawar? none of them Pakistani

-Pakistanis are backward people, with backward ideas, can't identify the roots of a very simple ideology.

educating the people is the only way forward. Here even on PDF you find all types of thoughts but most educated people condemn the TTP if not all of them

You are to blame for extremism, you personally, not the America, not Israel, not India, not some world ruling race of reptilian aliens. You are to blame, then your pathetic loved ones are to blame, then your pathetic neighbors are to blame... your pathetic children will soon be to blame, for now their pathetic teachers are to blame, Mr pious know-it-all-fatwa-machine-insert coin-cleric is to blame.

edit that rant out
ok most of it is a rant i can not answer this step by step
Listen you whine that the issue is internal and i agree with you. I agree with you which is why i said we need to reform our education system to help understand our religion. We need to overhaul our mosque and madrassah system also to root out extremist thoughts. I wonder IF you even bothered to read this article. I pointed out poverty, political faults, and extremist belief in our system as causes. Please read before you go on a rant and i would have asked a mod to look at what you wrote but well i think u need to read it yourself

Those two lines take the cake - Just those two sentences carry so much meaning!

and the only way to make things right is educating people. The problem with your points is i understand them but the solution is educating the children while keeping mosques in check. As it is mosques are not really frequented by the youth anymore so we need to bring strong base for the children. It is not that hard but it is time consuming.

I fear if I wrote my own piece, it would start off professional and proper. And it would end up with me swearing multiple times, being overly sarcastic, crushing the dreams of the young.

you nailed the last part with the rant....

 

[Jungibaaz]

the nationalities of those who attacked the school in Peshawar? none of them Pakistani

Is this thread about the war on the masterminds of Peshawar or the war in general? If it's the former, it's no good.

educating the people is the only way forward. Here even on PDF you find all types of thoughts but most educated people condemn the TTP if not all of them

PDF is not representative of Pakistani people. Social media in general is FAR from representative, and PDF, where English is the standard language, debates are had with international members, expats are over represented. This place is the farthest from a proper representation.

edit that rant out
ok most of it is a rant i can not answer this step by step
Listen you whine that the issue is internal and i agree with you. I agree with you which is why i said we need to reform our education system to help understand our religion. We need to overhaul our mosque and madrassah system also to root out extremist thoughts. I wonder IF you even bothered to read this article. I pointed out poverty, political faults, and extremist belief in our system as causes. Please read before you go on a rant and i would have asked a mod to look at what you wrote but well i think u need to read it yourself.

This wasn't targeted at you, you should not feel obliged to answer my ranting. I don't expect anyone to.
And sorry, I won't edit it, it sounds really harsh, but that was the point, if another mod wants to delete it, I'll happily accept their call.

 

[Gufi]

This wasn't targeted at you, you should not feel obliged to answer my ranting. I don't expect anyone to.

let me reply with something very simple. Come here and fix things rather then whine that everything is broken. Very simple concept if you hold a Pakistani passport you are as responsible if not more responsible.

 

[RescueRanger]

PDF is not representative of Pakistani people. Social media in general is FAR from representative, and PDF, where English is the standard language, debates are had with international members, expats are over represented. This place is the farthest from a proper representation.

100% in agreement with this statement.

let me reply with something very simple. Come here and fix things rather then whine that everything is broken. Very simple concept if you hold a Pakistani passport you are as responsible if not more responsible.

We need more Donald Rumsfeld's in Pakistan:

 

[Gufi]

We need more Donald Rumsfeld's in Pakistan:

i spent my childhood outside Pakistan and am qualified enough to live a very comfortable life outside. But i rather try and make some sort of change. If that rant was from someone trying to do something i would not feel offended but this man sits outside and whines like a child. When you rant @Jungibaaz you should first look at what you have done. Sit outside and look down at the lowly Pakistanis and all their faults but never set foot inside the country to fix things.

You are to blame, then your pathetic loved ones are to blame, then your pathetic neighbors are to blame...

in your words applies to sitting outside

 

[Jungibaaz]

let me reply with something very simple. Come here and fix things rather then whine that everything is broken. Very simple concept if you hold a Pakistani passport you are as responsible if not more responsible.

Generic talks about, this needs to be done, that needs to be done, is meaningless, the detail missing because it's not specific. What sort of a solution is 'just get rid of extremism'? How, where, by whom, for whom? Besides, the ranting is my way of life. I put up a little warning about that.

And if you can't agree with me about the issues, you really, really won't like what I have in mind for solutions. It involves further ranting, unsavory sarcasm and whining. Anyway, I'll continue this tomorrow.

in your words applies to sitting outside

Now don't get personal.

You see these flags? They're about as good as an indicator as yours are. You know nothing about my contribution. Except my hate filled rants.

I'll deal with this crap tomorrow.

 

[Gufi]

Now don't get personal.

it was not personal millions outside Pakistan like you.... If everyone in Pakistan is too blame same goes for those outside Pakistan... complaining is easy and hate filled rants even easier. Sarcasm an rants both against site policy but okay let us try that tomorrow.

 

[RescueRanger]

i spent my childhood outside Pakistan and am qualified enough to live a very comfortable life outside. But i rather try and make some sort of change. If that rant was from someone trying to do something i would not feel offended but this man sits outside and whines like a child. When you rant @Jungibaaz you should first look at what you have done. Sit outside and look down at the lowly Pakistanis and all their faults but never set foot inside the country to fix things.

in your words applies to sitting outside

Brother,

I understand your passion. But understand this that, we all have a role to play and certain circumstances force people away from their motherland, trust me when I say this, that most expats live outside Pakistan with a heavy heart. No one wishes to live in self imposed exile. away from the land of their birth and origin on purpose.

Some may have commitments which cannot be cast aside, some may have constraints, after all the west is not the land of milk and honey as many would believe. Others cannot return due to enmity or fear of reprisals.

Pakistanis living abroad actually do more or can do more for the image of Pakistan then Pakistanis living inside our borders. They have greater exposure than anyone in Pakistan, they have greater access to tools such as social media, a wider audience, ability to represent Pakistan on a world stage.

Now if someone gives feedback on the state of their nation, it is because they have a feeling of ownership, and no one can deny them that ownership. It is the right of every Pakistani to give this feedback, people contribute in different ways and trust me in the larger scheme of things, we all have a role to play.

Your article mentioned something of cohesion, well if we cannot respect each other's views on an online forum, how on earth pray tell will we unite as one force against this blight that plague's our nation?

 

[Gufi]

Your article mentioned something of cohesion, well if we cannot respect each other's views on an online forum, how on earth pray tell will we unite as one force against this blight that plague's our nation?

I respect him which is why i asked him to edit the rants out. Come on I take offence if someone uses words like those. It seems he blames everyone in Pakistan for the problems that he has faced. I spent 80 percent of my life outside and still i have hope and hope things better. I did not start the rants and still tried to answer what he asked and told him what i thought needed to be done. I respect his views and hope he can keep a civil tone. He admits he is ranting and expects respect of his views that is not allowed is it. That is an extreme view in itself. something that I am against

 

[MastanKhan]

A Path to peace

​

On the morning of the 16th of December seven armed terrorists entered The Army public School and went on a killing rampage that left 150 children dead and more than a hundred injured, in an act of barbarity that shocked the world. While the nation grieved and mourned they also united in the fact that something needs to be done about this cancer slowly eating away at this nation. Many different directions have been proposed to counter this scourge and in this article another one will be presented.

The treatment of this cancer which has entrenched itself so deeply is not going to be easy or quick but it is a necessary, albeit painful path we must take as a nation. A multipronged effort has to be launched with society as a whole contributing in the roles assigned to them. There are some quick steps that can help improve the current situations and some long term plans to rectify the root issues causing terrorism.

The most important player is the army, whose successful operations are helping us rid of the immediate danger, which with the successful completion of Operation Zarb-e-Azb in North Waziristan and concurrent raids in various cities by intelligence agencies is clearing the country of terrorist cells. Through these actions it is clear that there is an understanding on how to tackle home grown and foreign insurgents who have infiltrated Pakistani soil and while the country is ridding itself of these terrorists and securing our borders through means of ditches, walls, checkpoints and cooperation with the Afghan government, The army needs to make sure to continue the operations and extend them to counter the BLA and other pockets where there are terror camps or the writ of the government is challenged. Special attention needs to be given to charitable organizations that are actually radically inclined and ticking time bombs.

A strong state is one which has the army protecting the borders and the police handling internal problems, but, sadly for a nation which has been targeted by many terrorist attacks we still have no police unit to contend with terrorists. The government of Pakistan needs to take tangible steps towards building an anti terrorist force akin to SWAT and GIGN who are trained to handle such threats as this is critical to national security.

Another issue that must be tackled on an urgent basis is the disarming of the civilian population with regards to automatic weapons. Gun ranges should be formed for gun enthusiasts but there should be no automatic weapons allowed to civilians and strict punishments should be handed to those who possess assault rifles after a designated period of time. Liberty is a wonderful concept but in the current conditions sacrifices have to be made for the betterment of Pakistan.

With a strong structure to defend against terrorist attacks set into place there needs to be an effort to prevent home grown terrorists from forming. Only to the misinformed it seems that monitoring the mosques or controlling them is an easy task. To move forward we need to pay special attention to who our Imams are and have tests formulated to vet out those with extremist views while asking the general public to report any extremist activities in mosques on special help lines formulated for this task. To run a madrassah the Imam should go through a battery of tests followed by a psychological evaluation to determine his state of mind. The first year of classes should be monitored by the intelligence agencies followed by random checks in the years to follow. Lists of topics to be avoided should be given and rules on the use of the loudspeakers of the mosque also made clear.

Any mosque or madrassah found to be harboring terrorists needs to be sealed and strict punishment given to the local police stations under whose jurisdiction the mosque is. Imams and religious scholars with extremist views who do not condemn the killing of innocent people should be stripped of their titles and their institutions banned. There should be no leniency towards any terrorist group and the government needs to act decisively to banish these thoughts from mainstream society.

The education system in Pakistan is our future and because of that it needs the most attention. There have been calls by a minority of secular minded people to abolish the subject of Islam till one reaches college but that is like a pigeon closing its eyes when faced by predators. With the growing threat of ISIS and other terror organizations the threat of teenagers being radicalized has increased exponentially and the answer is not to remove the subject of religion but to reform the style it is taught and make children religiously mature enough to understand the difference between what is right and what is wrong.

The focus of Islamic studies need to be a comprehensive study on the life of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and understanding that violence is not the answer to problems with special focus given to tolerance and respect for minorities. With clear textbooks for every school, whether it is private or public, the children need to understand what the real meaning of Islam is and make them mature enough to understand how to deal with the threats that face Muslims today. For this purpose video lectures need to be prepared as guidelines to teachers who wish to teach this subject to deter teachers finding their own interpretations of books.

There needs to be sweeping changes in the political system in this country with local body elections being held to better represent the people making the common man feel like he is part of the system and increase harmony with the country. There should be a total ban on political parties having any armed wings and politics in the educational system also needs to be removed. Any politician found breaking these laws should be stripped of office and tried in an army court as a terrorist if found to have been involved with any armed wing.

Radical reform in the feudal areas needs to be considered to nullify the concept of personal fiefdoms with gradual integration into society with the law of the land applying to all who live under it. This should also apply to personal militias of feudalists being disbanded.

In terms of foreign relations we need to take a harder stance on countries harboring terrorists who can hurt Pakistani interests specially focusing on Afghanistan and discuss with the Afghan government the return of the refugees facilitating their return back to their own country. Failure to comply with the wishes of the Pakistani Government should result in complete closing of the border until specific goals decided by the armed forces of Pakistan are not met.

The economy is directly related to terrorism, and there should be a concentrated focus in redeveloping backward impoverished areas. Poverty breeds illiteracy and ignoring joblessness and destitute lifestyles will be detrimental to ridding ourselves of these pests. Without economic growth the efforts today will have no long term benefits in the future. For this an all parties conference with the chief of army staff in presence should decide the future in regards to power supply and dams with concrete action plans being a must at the end of the conference.

Terrorism has multiple causes and to tackle those requires hard work, sacrifices and optimism but united as a nation there is no obstacle that we can not surmount to build the Pakistan the Quaid envisioned as proud progressive Pakistani’s living in harmony with the world at large. We must work on all fronts to build a more unified nation because to falter now would be dangerous to the very existence of the Pakistan as we know it.

​

@Akheilos @al-Hasani @Chinese-Dragon @Nihonjin1051 @Hakan @RescueRanger @levina @Slav Defence @Armstrong @XenoEnsi-14 @Sinan @SvenSvensonov @Yizhi @Horus @Zarvan @Hyperion @Salman Arif @Developereo @syedali73 @opruh @xenon54 @Fattyacids @jaibi @Oscar @Pakistani shaheens @rockstar08 @Jungibaaz @BDforever @waz @DRaisinHerald[/QUOTE]

Sir,

All this article of yours-----it does not address the core issue---until and unless the core issue is not taken care of----you have nothing---.

As your major problems still exist and masses have no reason to kowtow to the state---you are designed to fail.

You seem to be a good person and have tried hard to address the issues---but you have not built a foundation on which you will base your reforms and enforcements.

 

[VCheng]

@Gufi

a very well written and a very well thought out article.

As an extension of the "what you should do", there are some pertinent points that might require a serious debate that your article can start off.
but one very major point is:
"Imams and religious scholars with extremist views who do not condemn the killing of innocent people should be stripped of their titles and their institutions banned."

Who is going to define which Imam or religious scholar has extremist views? how are you going to define "extremist" views?

The vicious circle in current day Pakistan is: anyone who dares to go against an Imam with a sizeable following - is going to be labelled a non-muslim and its a matter of time before the "blasphemy" laws take their course.
If you do not talk against it, the extremist movement is only emboldened.

Please keep in mind that nobody has any idea of just how many mosques and madrassas there actually are in Pakistan, just to appreciate the enormity of the problem.

===================================================

The OP article is typical of the fossilized mindset that pervades Pakistani society and is a virtual guarantee that Einstein's definition of insanity will continue to apply until the whole three ring circus is finally shut down from within.

 

[Gufi]

Please edit it it seems that there is an issue with ur note. I will answer it then..

Sir,

 

[MastanKhan]

Please edit it it seems that there is an issue with ur note. I will answer it then..

There is nothing wrong with my post----there is a part of me that says what I have written---but if you want me to delete it---I will

 

[Gufi]

There is nothing wrong with my post----there is a part of me that says what I have written---but if you want me to delete it---I will

No i will answer it in some time sorry i thought there was more to go because it was divided into two

Please keep in mind that nobody has any idea of just how many mosques and madrassas there actually are in Pakistan, just to appreciate the enormity of the problem.

I read your solution which says you have to control the funds of the madrassahs said control the funds.how would you control the funds if you do not know the number yourself of course it is a logical conclusion that all mosques and madrassahs have to be counted first.
Now let me explain how mosques and madrassahs work over here. The money these institutions get is from the society

• the common man who gives the money in good faith.
• And there are over 12000 registered madrassahs and they take care of the poorest of society giving the basic education where the schooling system has failed.
• It is impossible to control their funds it is much easier to control the Imams of the area.
• even if you control the funds you have to watch over what the Imam says

The OP article is typical of the fossilized mindset that pervades Pakistani society and is a virtual guarantee that Einstein's definition of insanity will continue to apply until the whole three ring circus is finally shut down from within.

• what is not a fossilized mindset, reducing Islam in the country to a mere name and leaving the mind of children open to whatever exploitation there is? You will leave the children knowing they are Muslims but not knowing what is stands for open to all types of extremist to use as they see fit.
• Or telling an army soldier that he might die for the country but the beard he keeps is offensive?
• or better still take out the concept of religion from the army because in case you do not know it is one of the greatest driving forces for our armed forces?

Your solutions may work in the west but the issue you fail to grasp is that it will not work in this country. You come saying that we should take religion out of the system which is an impossible thing. You do not understand this country and you think that the religion is the cause of problems. The cause of the problem is illiteracy and the lack of understanding of the religion which can not be taken care of with the wave of a magic wand. Stop talking about Einsteins theories and understand that the dynamics of every country are different. You can not fit your style of living onto others and expect them to follow it. This is a country with problems but solutions unique to the country. First understand the mindset of the Pakistani people then move onto advising them.

You seem to be a good person and have tried hard to address the issues---but you have not built a foundation on which you will base your reforms and enforcements.

The issue is that there has to be realism as well as practicality in the words. If i say the biggest problems that are confronting this country are leaderless corrupt governments and say they should be held accountable it sounds nice but it is not practial. I understand what you said about being an expat i have spent more then 80 percent of my life outside this country, The article dealt with changes needed to rid the country of extremist mind sets.
Poverty, feudalism and lawless states are part of the problem as well as unchecked religious fanatics. As far as your grievance about electing the most corrupt government i totally agree with you there and I understand that the system we had before this phase of democracy was really much better at giving rights to the common man but we can not look to the past nor can we uproot the whole system completely. If we could the first thing I would do is get a fair judicial system and honest bureaucrats working with an educated honest parliament. @MastanKhan

 

[I.R.A]

You the Pakistani:----

Hi,

As for me---as an expat----I say for pakistanis---let them go to hell---let them rot---let them be destroyed----let them be slaughtered by the terrorists---let their days and nights be filled will terror---death---destruction and misery---in the manner they have kicked the expats out of the mainstream politics and management---you guys only want our money---the foreign exchange----there is no welcome sign hanging over Pakistan for us to come back---participate and share our insight----.

We did that 13 years ago----lots of investment---lots of businesses and then you let us branded by the court of law---no more expats with dual citizenships in the system---.

You then turned on your own govt which was the most democratic---you overthrew the govt and brought in themost corrupt govt known in the history of Pakistan.

We kept telling you that these Islamic terrorists are doing the bombings and killings and you were lying to yourselfand to everyone else that it was a foreign hand.

How stupid a nation has to be to say---" we know muslims cannot do this " --- how stupid one has to be to say "islam does not allow it " --- yet you uttered that mantra for the longest---till the fire lit your own house.

Even though you are a Pakistani---you have no identity of your own---. You

At least unlike you we the Pakistanis had balls to stay here and face whatever you wish us to face. You were the ones who deserted your homeland, you are the ones who are attracted by the West, you are the ones who preferred your personal well being over your Nation's. I had the opportunity and chance to leave my country but I chose to stay because I knew this country gave me education, gave me the love, the identification, the pride, the sense of belonging, the courage to face challenges. Though I face a lot of ill treatment, though there are many ills in my country, I know my society is corrupt from bottom to top, its hard for me to live as a law abiding citizen in this country, me and my family face danger at every step, the current status of my country and my country men sometimes gets me frustrated, but I am determined I will not leave my country, I will prefer dying here then standing in ques and begging for visas or asylums. I will stay and face both expat goons like you and these coward terrorists because I am not a deserter.

Next time when your expat a$$ wants to curse us Pakistanis just remember that you are the deserters, the cowards who preferred their own personal goals over serving their country, you can keep your investment and lectures to yourself. May be one day you will come back looking for your identity, just remember how you cursed us Pakistanis. Till then have a good western time and enjoy till it lasts.
​