A Pakistani at a Mumbai café

[Contrarian]

How many of you have shed any tears for Pakistan having been split into two? What about the state supported terrorism back then on your end? That was ok? Think about it from the Pakistani PoV please, after all you are trying to convince us to think about the Mumbai attacks in the same way and most of us agree that those were indeed atrocities committed against innocent civilians. Can you accept that your country had a role in the same against Pakistani civilians and military in 1971 and the damage done was far greater than the Mumbai attacks? Most of us do realize that its in the past, but when we see the one-sided grudges, then it evokes a sense of unfairness in the way this situation is being assessed by the other side.

I know I am going back to the obvious issues and as much as I agree with Joe's reasonable post #98, some of the other comments are oblivious of the past (or maybe its an intentional omission on your part). Selective memory is not helping this debate here and it has not helped at the official levels either.

Absolutely correct. India cannot deny its role in the breakup of Pakistan in 1971.

No one denies Indian role in 71. But the thing most say is how long is the Pakistani establishment (read PA-as it exercises authority of ISI) going to nurture terrorism against Indian civil citizens. India left the policy of fomenting separatism(separate from terrorism) long back - right after the LTTE fiasco.

As i said before, direction of irregular warfare against Indian security forces is to some extent understandable, but not terrorism towards the common people. This is what Pakistani establishment has done.

It is a question that you as Pakistani civilians cannot answer, because the Pakistani Army and all its organizations are not accountable & subordinate to the Pakistani Parliament who is accountable to Pakistani people. There is a very clear break in the chain. The Pakistani Army is accountable to no one but themselves. And as long as they deem it profitable from their analysis, it will carry on. The onus lies on India to increase the cost for Pakistan, that will lead to a recalculation by the Pakistani Army. Nothing more, nothing less - cold logic.

 

[VCheng]

No one denies Indian role in 71. But the thing most say is how long is the Pakistani establishment (read PA-as it exercises authority of ISI) going to nurture terrorism against Indian civil citizens. India left the policy of fomenting separatism(separate from terrorism) long back - right after the LTTE fiasco............. The onus lies on India to increase the cost for Pakistan, that will lead to a recalculation by the Pakistani Army. Nothing more, nothing less - cold logic.

The same cold logic would mean that India will be doing everything it can to foment trouble for Pakistan on its western boundary, would it not? Or have the Indians stopped using cold logic (I think not)?

 

[KS]

@Blain2, You mentioned 1971, that obviously begs the question about '65 and ISI's interference in the NE separatist movements that precede 71. Fine lets even forget that and for argument sake lets consider what we did in BD through Mukthis can be held as an excuse for your actions in Punjab and Kashmir. What about the urban terrorism apart from Kashmir that have their roots in Pakistan for which there are no similar actions from our side. ? What about the attack on Parliament for example ?

Anyway the point I made was to explain why Indians generalize and it was not an argument for why Pakistanis should not generalize. You are entitled to your opinion about India and I am willing to admit that it is understandable if it isn't great either.

Again no point of looking at past and having debate in circle. You need to look at where/how conflict of Kashmir started ? I would ask the same question how many of you acted against your government when they captured kashmir by using force against the will of kashmiri people? Ok it was will of Raja to join india but then many nawab wanted to join with Pakistan but you captured their state as well because you had military power so might is right. I assume you know the history and how tension between pakistan vs india started. I don't want to get in details about unfair distribution of resources during partition

Kashmir is a question that is so circular and always comes to the starting point that it will put earth's orbit to shame.

There is nothing I can say that will convince you that 200 page threads cant do previously.

Absolutely correct. India cannot deny its role in the breakup of Pakistan in 1971.

I never said it is wrong for Pakistanis to form an opinion on India.

My post was solely intended to say why Indians tend to generalize about Pakistan.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

It is a question that you as Pakistani civilians cannot answer, because the Pakistani Army and all its organizations are not accountable & subordinate to the Pakistani Parliament who is accountable to Pakistani people. The Pakistani Army is accountable to no one but themselves. .

If what you said is true then i don't get why you Indians blame common Pakistani when according to you they have Zero power about decisions of Army..

I think people have no control over what happened in past and no use of this blame game because no one is completely innocent here. We have two choices in present either live in peace with each others and stress on politicians to have a good relationship between two countries or should continue to live as enemy and try to look for opportunities to hurt/harm each others.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Kashmir is a question that is so circular and always comes to the starting point that it will put earth's orbit to shame.

There is nothing I can say that will convince you that 200 page threads cant do previously.

I know but my point was not about kashmir but i was saying that its not fair to shift all blame on one side in any political conflicts be it with china, Pakistan or with any other country

 

[KS]

I know but my point was not about kashmir but i was saying that its not fair to shift all blame on one side in any political conflicts be it with china, Pakistan or with any other country

Read my reply to Blain2.

There was no excuse for Pakistan to take the war to our cities, blasting trains and such stuff. Punjab and Kashmir was understandable in the context of 1971, but not the afforementioned part. In other words, Pakistan just went the 'extra mile'.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I really don't understand the point in this article, it doesn't seem to lead anywhere. I do like the fact though that the Pakistani journalist was disturbed by the gruesome reminders of 26/11 present at the Leopald cafe. It is a good decision by the owners to leave the bullet and fragmentation holes in place as a constant reminder of what happened.

+hopefully this Pakistani delegation can take some genuine positives back to their nation, especially Karachi. Mumbai and Karachi are strikingly similar at their foundations but today they are too disturbingly different cities. Karachi would do well to emulate Mumbai in many ways.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Read my reply to Blain2.

There was no excuse for Pakistan to take the war to our cities, blasting trains and such stuff. Punjab and Kashmir was understandable in the context of 1971, but not the afforementioned part. In other words, Pakistan just went the 'extra mile'.

Well KS its not as simple as you put it. To say that Pakistani ISI is indirectly involve in all sort of terrorism in India is as valid statement as saying Indian raw is indirectly sponsoring all terrorism in Pakistan. We cannot say anything with 100 percent accuracies

Indian Politicians : Pakistan exporting terrorism in India
Pakistani politicians : these are mere allegations without any evidence

Pakistani politicians: India is responsible for supporting terrorism in Pakistan
Indian Politicians: these are just allegations without any evidence

so its just blame game which start from politicians and end at public of boht sides and even after many years it will stop at the same point where it was started. so best of luck.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Other matters apart, some clarity is needed and it is best to begin with oneself.

I had ardently yearned for Indian intervention in East Pakistan, and was one of those millions of Bengalis in West Bengal cursing the central government and Indira Gandhi for their supine attitude and for making limp little speeches while our race was being extinguished. When the intervention came, it brought disbelief, then delirious joy. We knew that Pakistanis were at threat thereafter, were slightly disgruntled at the thought that mass murderers were not to be handed over to the Bangladeshis to stand trial for war crimes, but generally listened to the Army which said that wholesale massacre would have followed, not any kind of fair trial. Looking inside ourselves, we knew that was the correct assessment, and what they did in taking the POWs was the correct thing to do.

Only over the last two years have I come to know of attacks on Pakistani - West Pakistani - civilians within Bangladesh, prior to Operation Searchlight, and later during the armed struggle. The picture is increasingly disturbing. I would like to record my deep and sincere regret for civilian casualties during this phase, whoever was responsible,, and to underline that nobody has claimed that Indian forces, irregulars or intelligence agents ever had anything to do with it.

 

[indushek]

The same cold logic would mean that India will be doing everything it can to foment trouble for Pakistan on its western boundary, would it not? Or have the Indians stopped using cold logic (I think not)?

If we go by cold logic, it is always better to engage the enemy on his own turf rather than on ours.

 

[KS]

Well KS its not as simple as you put it. To say that Pakistani ISI is indirectly involve in all sort of terrorism in India is as valid statement as saying Indian raw is indirectly sponsoring all terrorism in Pakistan. We cannot say anything with 100 percent accuracies

Indian Politicians : Pakistan exporting terrorism in India
Pakistani politicians : these are mere allegations without any evidence

Pakistani politicians: India is responsible for supporting terrorism in Pakistan
Indian Politicians: these are just allegations without any evidence

so its just blame game which start from politicians and end at public of boht sides and even after many years it will stop at the same point where it was started. so best of luck.

No you cant really compare the claims of both sides. You dont have 'our' Kasab yet. We dont harbor wanted terrorists like Maulana Masood Azhar, Dawood Ibrahim.

And even if we were supporting urban terrorism in Pakistan, you very well know in whose cities bombs went first. That would be ours. If we are indeed supporting urban terrorism in Pakistan that is a reaction. Not the action.

 

[vsdoc]

I got banned trying to change her flag ,well i got there half way heh heh. Ask Aeronaut.

So have I.

A Hindu Indian girl marrying a Muslim Pakistani and converting to the faith.

Or so the story goes.

Do we stand a chance for our false flag issues to be taken seriously?

 

[Contrarian]

The same cold logic would mean that India will be doing everything it can to foment trouble for Pakistan on its western boundary, would it not? Or have the Indians stopped using cold logic (I think not)?

That is one of the options certainly.

There are other options as well which are not as violent yet equally if not more effective. From hurting Pakistan economically to helping Pakistan economically or helping Pakistani democratic apparatus to strengthen it so that it can assert its authority over Pakistani Army.

Cold logic has dictated at the moment, that the best way to counter Pakistani deep state apparatus is to ensure servility of Pakistani Army to the Pakistani Polity. To remove the independent mind and actions of the Pakistani Army.

And the best way to do that is to strengthen Pakistani Polity. That would reduce public support for the Army Hawks in a situation where Pakistan is in economic doldrums. If the Pakistani Polity can assert itself over the Army, half the battle will be won.

So to answer that question of yours - No. India is NOT conducting or supporting terrorism in Balochistan. You may find it hard to believe but your Army and its policies on a national level are the reason why the tribals are rising up against you. India is actively helping Afghanistan though, from building up its economy to helping its security apparatus - and the Pakistani Army hates that - any Indian presence in Afghanistan. They love to have a weak and defenseless Afghanistan which they can manipulate.

They want an exclusive Afghanistan where only Pakistan wields power and they cannot say this directly, thus you get 'India is supporting Taliban' bogey from PA & its agencies.

Having chosen this way - conducting terrorism in Balochistan would be giving Pakistan Army ammo over which they can continue to cite Indian bogey to continue to wield unconstitutional power. That would be self defeating to the currently chosen path.

If what you said is true then i don't get why you Indians blame common Pakistani when according to you they have Zero power about decisions of Army..

I think people have no control over what happened in past and no use of this blame game because no one is completely innocent here. We have two choices in present either live in peace with each others and stress on politicians to have a good relationship between two countries or should continue to live as enemy and try to look for opportunities to hurt/harm each others.

We blame Pakistani Army. But Pakistani's are the one's who tolerate that. They were the one's who used to be mighty excited about bomb blasts in India and loved to justify it till they started exploding recently in Pakistan as well. So Pakistani's are responsible for what happens in their country.

As said before. The Pakistani Policy of choosing urban terrorism is the reason for Indian 'anger'.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

ajtr is indian married to some pathan dude and lives in a middle east country

Really? Smart girl! Ajtr shares the same vision with me as far as Indian men are concerned She knows that her own Indian men are ahem ahem! Fugly! and she ended up marrying a Pakistani man. I don't blame her, I will do the same or wish to do the same if I was her. YOU GO GIRL! GO INDIANS!!

 

[vsdoc]

Coconut oil is back.

Everything in life is fine and normal again.