A Pakistani at a Mumbai café

[blackops]

Dude we are not babu bagarang jiss ko muslamanoo ko maar kar maza ata ha. what a stupid generalization from a kid. I have just one word for you " grow up" and come out of this bigotry and you will see a different world

Call someone else a kid let me kill someone to whom you are close with then teach me to come and look out for a new world

 

[blain2]

It can. It does.

My personal feeling of sympathy and goodwill towards Pakistanis can be determined from the entire body of my posts. This feeling of affinity has brought in a desire to see the state of Pakistan survive and prosper, without my country India necessarily being the sufferer as a result. There are a very few of us who have genuine goodwill towards individuals of your country, and consequently towards the country itself.

You will understand perhaps how deep the wounds run if I were to inform you that this, the attack on the Indian Parliament and the attack on scientists in Bangalore, where a personal acquaintance lost his life, and a friend suffered injuries, are in my mind utterly unforgivable. I will continue to work for peace between our two countries, I will continue to extend my hand in friendship to anyone who wishes to reciprocate, I will continue to wish your nation well, and encourage, and help where I can, individual Pakistanis, and I will continue to defend Pakistan against unfair attacks from others, even fellow citizens. But I will not forgive these treacherous attacks, and I do not accept any effort at offsetting these horrors against anything that we have done some other time in some other place.

You may be sure that other Indians are likely to feel similarly wounded and hurt and angry.

Joe, here on this side, friends, family friends have been lost in East Pakistan too. But its a matter of the past. Its only natural for a human to have such feelings. At the end of the day, its not the fault of all Pakistanis (although blackops and others like him clearly disagree) that such attacks happened in India. I personally don't hold any gripes with people of any nationality but do feel that when Pakistanis are singled out, it is as if there is no history to this conflict.

One can only be apologetic if there is an understanding that there is rancor and a long history here to contend with and neither side has been the victim all the time. There have been transgressions by both sides.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Call someone else a kid let me kill someone to whom you are close with then teach me to come and look out for a new world

Please. Is this necessary? Appropriate? Think about it before being provoked. I share your anger but deplore your response. It is better, surely, to die than to kill a defenseless human being?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Call someone else a kid let me kill someone to whom you are close with then teach me to come and look out for a new world

I will not be idiot to generalize all Indians if you as a individual take some wrong acts. You are pretending as if all Pakistani are killers and enjoy watching deaths of people. Why you guys have this habit to paint everyone with same brush and speaking on behalf of million people?

Joe@ I read your post before you deleted it but i only brought bajrang to let this guy know that sadist and evil people exist on both side of borders.would it be fair to judge all hindus based on acts of babu? I am sure not.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe, here on this side, friends, family friends have been lost in East Pakistan too. But its a matter of the past. Its only natural for a human to have such feelings. At the end of the day, its not the fault of all Pakistanis (although blackops and others like him clearly disagree) that such attacks happened in India. I personally don't hold any gripes with people of any nationality but do feel that when Pakistanis are singled out, it is as if there is no history to this conflict.

One can only be apologetic if there is an understanding that there is rancor and a long history here to contend with and neither side has been the victim all the time. There have been transgressions by both sides.

Let me step back and address your point in the same lucid and restrained manner that you have used.

What is important, perhaps, is to work around the anger that surely exists on both sides, and to try and live so that innocents no longer die. We each have a capacity to contribute in different ways. I have chosen the only way I know, to use my knowledge and communications skills to try and bridge the gaps between the two countries.

You will understand that this would not have been possible if I had blamed every Pakistani. I did not then, I do not now. One of my first experiences was to encounter the genuine grief and sorrow of absolute strangers writing into All Things Pakistan after those tragic deaths. That gesture, those many dozens of spontaneous responses could not fail to touch a chord.

But I do blame the deep state. There is no point in dwelling on this, but there is nothing even remotely equivalent to that mechanism in India. I speak from a position of privileged information. I blame that apparatus, nothing more - nothing less.

Two more things need saying. By no means would I imagine an apology necessary. What is needed is corrective action, action to dismantle what I believe continues to exist in an asymmetric fashion - a mechanism to hurt the defenseless in pursuance of national objectives.

The second thing is that in the words of Fletcher, deeds, not words, shall speak me.

You will perhaps already have made your own allowances for the excesses of a cranky elderly man from a notoriously volatile race.

 

[Contrarian]

What I do not understand here is, why is the blame only on Pakistan? (I am referring to the comments at the original link).

The Mumbai attacks were despicable, heinous ones for sure, but the history and the related acrimony does not just start there. There are comments about Pakistanis being dishonest and deceitful, how about the whole issue of splitting Pakistan apart and the resulting deaths and murders of thousands of civilians using, what we believed to be, terrorists taking action at the behest of a treacherous and deceitful Indian plan?

This sense of entitlement to grudges will find many takers on both sides.

I can give my personal view on this.
Pakistan sponsored terrorism is/was to some extent understandable as long as it was military in nature. As long as it was directed at military objectives. You dont find Indians complaining about pushing SSG in Kashmir in '65.

However, powers that be of Pakistan decided instead to spread terror all across India either directly planning or by facilitating Indians who wanted to do such - bombings and killings that donot lead to any military objective for Pakistan, apart from the attempt to destabilize the Indian society and the average Indian.

Thus the extra hatred.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I will not be idiot to generalize all Indians if you as a individual take some wrong acts. You are pretending as if all Pakistani are killers and enjoy watching deaths of people. Why you guys have this habit to paint everyone with same brush and speaking on behalf of million people?

Joe@ I read your post before you deleted it but i only brought bajrang to let this guy know that sadist and evil people exist on both side of borders.would it be fair to judge all hindus based on acts of babu? I am sure not.

I deleted it because I felt it was unfair to make that point, as if you were in some way responsible for Hafiz Saeed walking about free. It does not help to be sanctimonious, to be holier than thou, and my comment was coming out unpleasantly close to that spirit. It had to go. Try not to remember it. It is not something that makes me happy.

I can give my personal view on this.
Pakistan sponsored terrorism is/was to some extent understandable as long as it was military in nature. As long as it was directed at military objectives. You dont find Indians complaining about pushing SSG in Kashmir in '65.

However, powers that be of Pakistan decided instead to spread terror all across India either directly planning or by facilitating Indians who wanted to do such - bombings and killings that donot lead to any military objective for Pakistan, apart from the attempt to destabilize the Indian society and the average Indian.

Thus the extra hatred.

I agree, in essence, but would prefer the word anger to hatred.

 

[Pfpilot]

It can. It does.

My personal feeling of sympathy and goodwill towards Pakistanis can be determined from the entire body of my posts. This feeling of affinity has brought in a desire to see the state of Pakistan survive and prosper, without my country India necessarily being the sufferer as a result. There are a very few of us who have genuine goodwill towards individuals of your country, and consequently towards the country itself.

You will understand perhaps how deep the wounds run if I were to inform you that this, the attack on the Indian Parliament and the attack on scientists in Bangalore, where a personal acquaintance lost his life, and a friend suffered injuries, are in my mind utterly unforgivable. I will continue to work for peace between our two countries, I will continue to extend my hand in friendship to anyone who wishes to reciprocate, I will continue to wish your nation well, and encourage, and help where I can, individual Pakistanis, and I will continue to defend Pakistan against unfair attacks from others, even fellow citizens. But I will not forgive these treacherous attacks, and I do not accept any effort at offsetting these horrors against anything that we have done some other time in some other place.

You may be sure that other Indians are likely to feel similarly wounded and hurt and angry.

Why can't love and understanding go hand in hand with pain and suffering? It does in our daily lives, why can't it do so on a geopolitical level? The views expressed by yourself are rare on both sides of the borders (on a side not: not only due to this particular content but some of the most incredibly sophisticated writing I have ever read on any forum). Most are content on hating a nation for wrong doings of a few.

There have been many acts committed by Pakistan and India that fall short of the expectations of we place on our nations and neighbors. They have brought suffering to the others. But it should not be an altogether alien concept to vehemently disagree with what one deems wrong and reprehensible, while still respect the people of the other nation.

More often than not, I find myself angry or at least incredulous at the what I hear from the Indian media and some Indian members, but I do not respect India or Indians any less. The constant need for man to generalize what seems familiar from a distance has created two nations where people hate each other without any rational reason. What happened in Mumbai was terrible, but for West Pakistanis, what happened in the East was terrible...what happened to East Pakistanis at the hands of the Army was no less terrible. But through it all, the common man has suffered and gained nothing; has played no part in the planning but suffered the consequences.

We all have differences, but differences are not justifications for hate. It is understandable to condemn Pakistan for the pain and suffering caused in India and it is understandable for Pakistanis to do the same in regards to India. Yet it is not enough to blind one's self to the good that exists on both sides of the border. If a taxi driver crashes into my car, I will not hate all taxi drivers for the rest of my life...but that one taxi driver won't be thought of, as fondly. That is a very important distinction in my mind.

 

[KS]

I will not be idiot to generalize all Indians if you as a individual take some wrong acts. You are pretending as if all Pakistani are killers and enjoy watching deaths of people. Why you guys have this habit to paint everyone with same brush and speaking on behalf of million people?
.

Why should we not generalize...We are humans after all. I mean before 9/11 and the subsequent WOT which brought a great deal of shitstorm to your country were not the 150 million odd happily supporting the mujaheddin (in your parlance)/terrorists (in our parlance) in Kashmir ? How many of you guys were vocal against your agencies' support to them which was tantamount to state sponsored terrorism in another country ? Talk to any Pakistani..they say they don't support terrorism in India, but ask about Kashmir they get all hyper and start denouncing the 'occupational' forces and wish the freedom fighters luck. Dude, that IS supporting terrorism on us. You cant qualify your support with exceptions and then act all saintly.

Now dont tell me you dont support the 'jihad' in Kashmir. On the flip side, if you actually dont, then I have no problem with the likes of you.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I deleted it because I felt it was unfair to make that point, as if you were in some way responsible for Hafiz Saeed walking about free. It does not help to be sanctimonious, to be holier than thou, and my comment was coming out unpleasantly close to that spirit. It had to go. Try not to remember it. It is not something that makes me happy.

I agree, in essence, but would prefer the word anger to hatred.

well i am not that sensitive and i have tolerance to read comment no matter how bitter but i think hafiz saeed walking freely is not any different than modi walking freely but let leave this discussion for some other time

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why can't love and understanding go hand in hand with pain and suffering? It does in our daily lives, why can't it do so on a geopolitical level? The views expressed by yourself are rare on both sides of the borders (on a side not: not only due to this particular content but some of the most incredibly sophisticated writing I have ever read on any forum). Most are content on hating a nation for wrong doings of a few.

There have been many acts committed by Pakistan and India that fall short of the expectations of we place on our nations and neighbors. They have brought suffering to the others. But it should not be an altogether alien concept to vehemently disagree with what one deems wrong and reprehensible, while still respect the people of the other nation.

More often than not, I find myself angry or at least incredulous at the what I hear from the Indian media and some Indian members, but I do not respect India or Indians any less. The constant need for man to generalize what seems familiar from a distance has created two nations where people hate each other without any rational reason. What happened in Mumbai was terrible, but for West Pakistanis, what happened in the East was terrible...what happened to East Pakistanis at the hands of the Army was no less terrible. But through it all, the common man has suffered and gained nothing; has played no part in the planning but suffered the consequences.

We all have differences, but differences are not justifications for hate. It is understandable to condemn Pakistan for the pain and suffering caused in India and it is understandable for Pakistanis to do the same in regards to India. Yet it is not enough to blind one's self to the good that exists on both sides of the border. If a taxi driver crashes into my car, I will not hate all taxi drivers for the rest of my life...but that one taxi driver won't be thought of, as fondly. That is a very important distinction in my mind.

Allow me to endorse your views completely (except for part of one most embarrassing sentence). It is difficult to add to your comment. Best, then, not to try.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Why should we not generalize...We are humans after all. I mean before 9/11 and the subsequent WOT which brought a great deal of shitstorm to your country were not the 150 million odd happily supporting the mujaheddin (in your parlance)/terrorists (in our parlance) in Kashmir ? How many of you guys were vocal against your agencies' support to them which was tantamount to state sponsored terrorism in another country ? Talk to any Pakistani..they say they don't support terrorism in India, but ask about Kashmir they get all hyper and start denouncing the 'occupational' forces and wish the freedom fighters luck. Dude, that IS supporting terrorism on us. You cant qualify your support with exceptions and then act all saintly.

Now dont tell me you dont support the 'jihad' in Kashmir. On the flip side, if you actually dont, then I have no problem with the likes of you.

Again no point of looking at past and having debate in circle. You need to look at where/how conflict of Kashmir started ? I would ask the same question how many of you acted against your government when they captured kashmir by using force against the will of kashmiri people? Ok it was will of Raja to join india but then many nawab wanted to join with Pakistan but you captured their state as well because you had military power so might is right. I assume you know the history and how tension between pakistan vs india started. I don't want to get in details about unfair distribution of resources during partition

 

[notsuperstitious]

I was driving home with my Pakistani friend the second day of the attacks and he said he hoped they were not Pakistanis, and I said I hoped they were not Indians.

It was clear even then things will change. It was not a freak show by non state actors. This was always on the cards and the onus was on Pakistan, not to allow those mass murderers to operate from the same compound only by changing the name plate. That was indeed dishonest, deceitful, murderous, a new low, and while we sensed some shock and shame from across the border, we also sensed the glee. Even today a week does not go by when we are not reminded on this forum how the 10 boys were so brave.

Brave were those mumbai policemen, even when unarmed did not run away as is the norm in some other places, gave their lives away, because the city was their city. Even when carrying only a lathi, even they knew a line was crossed. Tukaram omble held down Kasab's AK47 while bullets were being pumped into his body. Mumbai will NOT forget that unless closure is provided.

The onus is again on Pakistan.

 

[blain2]

Why should we not generalize...We are humans after all. I mean before 9/11 and the subsequent WOT which brought a great deal of shitstorm to your country were not the 150 million odd happily supporting the mujaheddin (in your parlance)/terrorists (in our parlance) in Kashmir ? How many of you guys were vocal against your agencies' support to them which was tantamount to state sponsored terrorism in another country ? Talk to any Pakistani..they say they don't support terrorism in India, but ask about Kashmir they get all hyper and start denouncing the 'occupational' forces and wish the freedom fighters luck. Dude, that IS supporting terrorism on us. You cant qualify your support with exceptions and then act all saintly.

Now dont tell me you dont support the 'jihad' in Kashmir. On the flip side, if you actually dont, then I have no problem with the likes of you.

How many of you have shed any tears for Pakistan having been split into two? What about the state supported terrorism back then on your end? That was ok? Think about it from the Pakistani PoV please, after all you are trying to convince us to think about the Mumbai attacks in the same way and most of us agree that those were indeed atrocities committed against innocent civilians. Can you accept that your country had a role in the same against Pakistani civilians and military in 1971 and the damage done was far greater than the Mumbai attacks? Most of us do realize that its in the past, but when we see the one-sided grudges, then it evokes a sense of unfairness in the way this situation is being assessed by the other side.

I know I am going back to the obvious issues and as much as I agree with Joe's reasonable post #98, some of the other comments are oblivious of the past (or maybe its an intentional omission on your part). Selective memory is not helping this debate here and it has not helped at the official levels either.

 

[VCheng]

.............Think about it from the Pakistani PoV please, after all you are trying to convince us to think about the Mumbai attacks in the same way and most of us agree that those were indeed atrocities committed against innocent civilians. Can you accept that your country had a role in the same against Pakistani civilians and military in 1971 and the damage done was far greater than the Mumbai attacks? Most of us do realize that its in the past, but when we see the one-sided grudges, then it evokes a sense of unfairness in the way this situation is being assessed by the other side.
..................

Absolutely correct. India cannot deny its role in the breakup of Pakistan in 1971.